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GBR Anglia

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7 Jan 2010
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I despair - the whole point of GBR is/should be to recreate a national, unified network, but they still perpetuate regional/route branding. A small thing, perhaps, but still the lack of nationally-cohesive thinking is obvious. Stock should be interchangeable across the whole network (subject to technical issues of course) without further external re-branding work being required (even if just regional vinyls). Passengers don't care whether their train is locally-branded on its 'home' turf, but they will probably notice if, to take a random example, an Exeter to Exmouth train has Anglia branding after a stock transfer.
I think there will always be a need to brand trains roughly according to their routes to help passengers find their way - for example identifying a Thameslink service from a Southern service has value (and that's before you get to intercity vs local)
 
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StephenHunter

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BR also perpetrated regional/route branding. LTS as a brand was a recreation of Network SouthEast after all.
 

vuzzeho

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I despair - the whole point of GBR is/should be to recreate a national, unified network, but they still perpetuate regional/route branding. A small thing, perhaps, but still the lack of nationally-cohesive thinking is obvious. Stock should be interchangeable across the whole network (subject to technical issues of course) without further external re-branding work being required (even if just regional vinyls). Passengers don't care whether their train is locally-branded on its 'home' turf, but they will probably notice if, to take a random example, an Exeter to Exmouth train has Anglia branding after a stock transfer.
There's going to be a need for regional branding. I can't think of a national operator (SNCF, DB, Amtrak, etc) that doesn't have any regional branding, even a little. Passengers will notice if their Exeter to Exmouth train has Anglia branding, and then they'll get on. Same way passengers probably notice their Southeastern service has the Southern livery, but still get on.
 

RUK

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BR also perpetrated regional/route branding. LTS as a brand was a recreation of Network SouthEast after all.
Did they introduce LTS because the fares from Southend Central to London were cheaper than the Southend Victoria to London fares, so the distinction needed to be made? GBR Anglia loses that.
 

rmHawk765

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I despair - the whole point of GBR is/should be to recreate a national, unified network, but they still perpetuate regional/route branding. A small thing, perhaps, but still the lack of nationally-cohesive thinking is obvious. Stock should be interchangeable across the whole network (subject to technical issues of course) without further external re-branding work being required (even if just regional vinyls).
Which is essentially what sectorisation achieved, so why can't we just return to that? I do agree that the whole idea of an 'Integrated Business Unit' doesn't sound particularly like it's prioritising the passenger over profit or that it's actually unifying anything...

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The new Anglia network map looks pretty crisp.
It mentions 'Other operators route' (missing an apostrophe!), which isn't exactly any different to previous TOC maps. It's especially silly given the whole Kings Lynn section in grey is now nationalised. There are Overground and EL roundels yet the Overground lines out of Liverpool Street are grey?
 

StephenHunter

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Did they introduce LTS because the fares from Southend Central to London were cheaper than the Southend Victoria to London fares, so the distinction needed to be made? GBR Anglia loses that.
You can ask Chris Green; he's still with us. They were distinct operations under Eastern Region though.
 

Horizon22

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Which is essentially what sectorisation achieved, so why can't we just return to that? I do agree that the whole idea of an 'Integrated Business Unit' doesn't sound particularly like it's prioritising the passenger over profit or that it's actually unifying anything...

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It mentions 'Other operators route' (missing an apostrophe!), which isn't exactly any different to previous TOC maps. It's especially silly given the whole Kings Lynn section in grey is now nationalised. There are Overground and EL roundels yet the Overground lines out of Liverpool Street are grey?

The layout seemed crisp, the actual content has a few gaps.
 

chubs

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I think there will always be a need to brand trains roughly according to their routes to help passengers find their way - for example identifying a Thameslink service from a Southern service has value (and that's before you get to intercity vs local)

I don't disagree but again a Stansted Express service can have either variant of a 745 or a 720 and a Liverpool St - Norwich service can have either variant of a 745 or 3x local 755's.

Branding is utterly pointless in Anglia at the moment until they figure out a long term solution.
 

RUK

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I don't disagree but again a Stansted Express service can have either variant of a 745 or a 720 and a Liverpool St - Norwich service can have either variant of a 745 or 3x local 755's.

Branding is utterly pointless in Anglia at the moment until they figure out a long term solution.
That won’t change unless they get a few more (4 to 5, maybe?) Class 745s to make this unnecessary, which unfortunately seems unlikely.
 

Adrian1980uk

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That won’t change unless they get a few more (4 to 5, maybe?) Class 745s to make this unnecessary, which unfortunately seems unlikely.
That's the challenge they face at the moment and I can't see that changing for another 5 to 10 years until they're due overhauls and refurbs and the current situation becomes even more unsustainable
 

wls1

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720144 + 720501 at Grays earlier.

Driver said 720144 has a camera that records the overheads which none of the c2c ones have been fitted with yet so it was monitoring the overheads
 

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wagnaga

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That won’t change unless they get a few more (4 to 5, maybe?) Class 745s to make this unnecessary, which unfortunately seems unlikely.
Even if they do get additional units they still need a way to cycle them through Crown Point from Stansted side - or would we just have ECS?
 

RUK

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Driver said 720144 has a camera that records the overheads which none of the c2c ones have been fitted with yet so it was monitoring the overheads
Ah, that makes sense why they wanted to get the ex-Greater Anglia ones cleared for the LT&SR network then, and why they were running down the different LT&SR branches! (I have to get used to calling it that again, rather than c2c!) Interesting - thank you for the information! It looks like the destination displays might be simply left blank, rather than saying something like “Out Of Service”?

I presume that there’s now automatic ticket acceptance between what was c2c and what was Greater Anglia now, in times of disruption between London and Southend?
 
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Bald Rick

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I do agree that the whole idea of an 'Integrated Business Unit' doesn't sound particularly like it's prioritising the passenger over profit or that it's actually unifying anything...

IMHO the word ‘Integrated’ does rather suggest unifying…
 
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Has anyone yet said anything about the fares structures on the two routes to Southend? Whatever 'logic' might suggest, unifying them would mean either one route having a cut, the other an increase or some combination thereafter. A fair amount of political criticism inevitable, unless everyone gets to pay less (not very likely....!)

Also, on the GBR 'unified map', what happened to all the red, white and blue stuff? If they could make that less prominent, or drop it altogether, that would be better. Flag colours and identities is not the railway's cup of tea, IMHO!
 

RUK

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Has anyone yet said anything about the fares structures on the two routes to Southend? Whatever 'logic' might suggest, unifying them would mean either one route having a cut, the other an increase or some combination thereafter. A fair amount of political criticism inevitable, unless everyone gets to pay less (not very likely....!)

Also, on the GBR 'unified map', what happened to all the red, white and blue stuff? If they could make that less prominent, or drop it altogether, that would be better. Flag colours and identities is not the railway's cup of tea, IMHO!
I suppose what was Greater Anglia would have said before that their route to Southend is a longer distance, yet covered in a shorter time, in order to justify their more expensive price, though I don’t think that the price disparity is commensurate with the small time saving. I don’t know what pricing was like in the pre-Network SouthEast days.

Pre-privatisation, the Great Eastern also had the newer, nicer trains, which is also the case now, though I don’t personally think the difference between a Class 720 and Class 357 is as big as I vaguely remember the difference between a Class 321 and the Class 302s, Class 310s, and Class 312s that they used to have on LTS being - I personally find the Class 357s more comfortable with their seats and being less narrow, with the only slight advantage of the Class 720s being their more modern colour PIS.

In the National Express days, there were arguments between passengers and staff, because both National Express East Anglia trains and National Express c2c trains said “National Express” on them, so some people assumed that they were interchangeable, but they were still run separately.

GBR Anglia and Great Northern also have 2 routes to Cambridge, where Anglia has the longer, slower, and cheaper route, with less-comfortable trains in the Class 720 vs. the Class 379s and Class 387s, though Great Northern occasionally has the less-comfortable Class 700s as well. I don’t know how fares worked during the WAGN time, when both routes were under the same TOC.

The GBR Anglia map currently retains the Greater Anglia red and c2c purple. Other signage (wayfinding, etc.) looks to be more black and white in colour, which I personally prefer to the red, white, and blue.
 
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dk1

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In the National Express days, there were arguments between passengers and staff, because both National Express East Anglia trains and National Express c2c trains said “National Express” on them, so some people assumed that they were interchangeable, but they were still run separately.
Apart from the interchangeability between the two during disruption and agreed engineering works, the only exception I know of is for staff then as it is now. C2C employees can use GA and vice versa as a long standing reciprocal agreement.
 

saismee

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Yesterday the new boards were having a hard time displaying platform numbers across the network.

Norwich and Ipswich were definitely affected, with platforms just displaying as "Plat -" for many departures.

The old boards had no trouble displaying platform numbers properly, so at least the ones at the entrance and by the buffers were working.

Still some teething issues which you would've hoped that the original installation at Norwich would've fixed. They were mostly working after around 1200, but one or two departures still didn't display a number.
 

positron

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I'm guessing we'll need the full GBR bill before c2c and Greater Anglia actually cease as legal entities? I wonder how much the lawyers are making dealing with an IBU with 2 operators in.

I will say the livery looks much nicer than the southern and south western ones.
 

StephenHunter

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I'm guessing we'll need the full GBR bill before c2c and Greater Anglia actually cease as legal entities? I wonder how much the lawyers are making dealing with an IBU with 2 operators in.

I will say the livery looks much nicer than the southern and south western ones.
You mean the act. The bill is heading for the Lords committee stage in September.
 

positron

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It will be some time after the bill passes into law.



Precisely nothing. What would they be lawyering about?
Well dealing with competition law would be a large part I'd guess?


How Anglia learnings can help other Great British Railways business units
Integrated Business Units (IBUs) still have a lot to learn, according to Jamie Burles, Managing Director of Great British Railways (GBR) Anglia.
Speaking to RAIL at the ceremony, Burles said: “We’ve learnt a lot of lessons so far. Behind the scenes, when both c2c and Greater Anglia are still separate legal entities, it has been quite a torturous legal process with lots of legal agreements.”
Welp it would seem they're lawyering about quite a lot actually...

“It has not been easy, but we’re currently streamlining that on behalf of the industry, so that will mean that when other IBUs are on the starting line getting ready to do this, they will know how to do it quicker and better.”
At least it seems that it should be easier for future setups. Still I imagine the new act will allow for a lot of streamlining even further still.

I know TfW are really hoping they're able to benefit from the reduced legal requirements so they can properly merge TfW rail with the infrastructure team. They still have to send out lots of paperwork and wait for objections even though they're the only operator and there's not even freight anymore. I don't think there's even charters anymore either.
 

tsyxa

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Well dealing with competition law would be a large part I'd guess?





Welp it would seem they're lawyering about quite a lot actually...


At least it seems that it should be easier for future setups. Still I imagine the new act will allow for a lot of streamlining even further still.

I know TfW are really hoping they're able to benefit from the reduced legal requirements so they can properly merge TfW rail with the infrastructure team. They still have to send out lots of paperwork and wait for objections even though they're the only operator and there's not even freight anymore. I don't think there's even charters anymore either.
There’s no rail freight in wales?
 

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