TfW PAYG - North Wales

[Edvid]

Included within preparation for the second phase is an application for Listed Building Consent at Flint, where TfW intend to install 3 validators.

Proposal description

The proposal is to add new 'Pay as you go' (PAYG) equipment at the station. The proposal is to add 3No. new Ticket Validators (PVAL's) to allow commuters to use PAYG for ticketless travel around TfW' Wales and borders network. The proposal is to install 2No, post mounted PVAL's and 1No. Wall mounted PVAL.

 

[positron]

Anyone heard any information on when phase 2 is planned to happen?

 

[Edvid]

In relation to the North Wales PAYG scheme, Flintshire's next full council meeting (scheduled for Wednesday) will include a Notice of Motion titled Fare’s Fair: Tap and Overpay.

Flintshire County Council notes:
● that Transport for Wales has installed ‘Tap and Go’ terminals at stations in North Wales, enabling users to pay for travel using a contactless card prior to boarding;
● that these terminals are unable to offer the best value fares to a significant number of users;
● that these terminals are only usable by people with a contactless card;
● that while Flintshire’s stations on the North Wales Main Line have conventional ticket machines, stations on the Borderlands line do not and passengers may purchase a ticket from the guard on the train;
● that passengers are generally expected to purchase a ticket before they board if the option to do so is available at the station;
● that no signs are displayed informing passengers that the ‘Tap and Go’ terminals do not offer the cheapest fares and that passengers may still purchase tickets on board, and
● that signage at some stations wrongly suggests that using the ‘Tap and Go’ machines will result in the lowest available fare being charged.

Flintshire County Council believes:
● that some passengers without contactless means of payment will not understand that they can still buy a ticket on board, given the lack of signage to this effect;
● that passengers eligible for cheaper fares, including children, young people, older people, disabled people and veterans, are not adequately informed that they will be charged a full price fare and could save money by buying a ticket on the train;
● that users who erroneously pay higher fares as a result of the presentation of the ‘Tap and Go’ machines without this context are less likely to use the railway in future, and
● that proper signage is necessary to protect passengers from overpaying at stations with no other means of buying a ticket.

Flintshire County Council resolves:
● to instruct the Chief Executive to write to Transport for Wales setting out this council’s concern about the lack of proper signage surrounding the installation of ‘Tap and Go’ machines, and calling for the installation of signs adjacent to the machines clearly stating that children and passengers with a railcard will not be charged the lowest fares by the machines, and that passengers may still pay on the train for tickets;
● to put out a press release warning the public of the risk of being overcharged by the ‘Tap and Go’ machines;
● to publish the reply from Transport for Wales, and
● to explore other options of informing the public of the risk of overcharging should Transport for Wales not take appropriate steps to do so themselves.

Proposer: Cllr Alasdair Ibbotson (FPV, Penyffordd)

 

[Djgr]

In relation to the North Wales PAYG scheme, Flintshire's next full council meeting (scheduled for Wednesday) will include a Notice of Motion titled Fare’s Fair: Tap and Overpay.

Quite a damning motion!

 

[positron]

How does the pricing work on that line, is it like in south Wales where the PAYG fare is cheaper than the equivalent paper ticket? Because in that case they might be making a bit of a mountain out of molehill. Especially once tfw release the Railcard discount update to their app.

 

[endofthelines]

No skin in the game, but really enjoy how everyone calls it 'Tap and go' despite all the marketing being pay as you go.

 

[gray1404]

How does the pricing work on that line, is it like in south Wales where the PAYG fare is cheaper than the equivalent paper ticket? Because in that case they might be making a bit of a mountain out of molehill. Especially once tfw release the Railcard discount update to their app.

My understanding is that it's based on the normal paper ticket fares with some capping but no Railcard discounts. So it's more convenience then any savings compared to buying a traditional ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2026 ==

In relation to the North Wales PAYG scheme, Flintshire's next full council meeting (scheduled for Wednesday) will include a Notice of Motion titled Fare’s Fair: Tap and Overpay.

Good on this Councillor for raising these valid issues, exposing the holes in the system and attempting to hold TfW to account.

 

[positron]

From a random example on their fare calculator PAYG single is cheaper than standard paper ticket. For longer journeys once it's expands I'm guessing that difference will grow (Cardiff to Abergavenny being a good example in South Wales).
Also remember the system will automatically give you the cheaper fare either way. Obviously in this particular return case the Railcard discount would make it even cheaper so it depends on your journey.

So while some signage can probably be improved and maybe signage to say they can buy on board (though installing a ticket machine too is probably worthwhile). I suspect in at least some cases PAYG will be cheaper even Vs the Railcard discount, I know it is for me in south Wales.

 

[Farigiraf]

In relation to the North Wales PAYG scheme, Flintshire's next full council meeting (scheduled for Wednesday) will include a Notice of Motion titled Fare’s Fair: Tap and Overpay.

This is well put and reasonably thorough, though I'm surprised that the main conclusion wasn't just for PAYG to support railcards and also charge you the return fare wherever applicable, if that saves money. Single-leg pricing, as is common on PAYG schemes, works best where either a single is exactly 1/2 the return fare, or where there's a generous daily cap. Otherwise, many passengers will be worse-off afterwards, especially if peak restrictions are introduced which weren't there before.

I hope that other places looking to establish contactless tap&go payment learn many lessons from Project Oval, South Wales Valleys PAYG and North Wales PAYG, about things that work well and things that don't work well. For example, railcard acceptance shouldn't be a nice-to-have (3 years since start of Contactless PAYG and TfL still don't seem to be making any progress on railcards), it should be built-in from the beginning.

 

[Djgr]

This is well put and reasonably thorough, though I'm surprised that the main conclusion wasn't just for PAYG to support railcards and also charge you the return fare wherever applicable, if that saves money. Single-leg pricing, as is common on PAYG schemes, works best where either a single is exactly 1/2 the return fare, or where there's a generous daily cap. Otherwise, many passengers will be worse-off afterwards, especially if peak restrictions are introduced which weren't there before.

I hope that other places looking to establish contactless tap&go payment learn many lessons from Project Oval, South Wales Valleys PAYG and North Wales PAYG, about things that work well and things that don't work well. For example, railcard acceptance shouldn't be a nice-to-have (3 years since start of Contactless PAYG and TfL still don't seem to be making any progress on railcards), it should be built-in from the beginning.

It shouldn't be forgotten that the Borderlands was a pilot for the whole scheme in order to tease out problems.

Clearly where people have paid good money for railcards in order to obtain discount then this should be honoured.

 

[Edvid]

Anyone heard any information on when phase 2 is planned to happen?

According to Helen Mitchell of TfW it'll be launched in September.

Transport for Wales launches contactless pay as you go rail travel in North East Wales | RailBusinessDaily | Helen Mitchell

cEMV PAYG Phase 1 Network North Wales now live 15 stations Wrexham to Bidston. Phase 2 to launch in September a further 10 stations including Chester. Massive well done to the TfW and supplier teams in delivering this phase. Transport for Wales UnicardiBlocksImaginet LtdCentregreat Vix Technology

www.linkedin.com

 

[markymark2000]

TFW has submitted it's planning application into Cheshire West and Chester Council for alterations to Chester Station. https://pa.cheshirewestandchester.g....do?caseType=Application&keyVal=TGIPP3TEJGV00 (application 26/01795/LBC incase the link doesn't work)

New platform validators on platform 3 just past the quiet room and also near the lift, and also at the bottom of the main stairs on 4B, and near the vending machines on 4A.
New Vix gates being installed too which is kind of funny given that the gateline was only redone a few years ago, but by the looks of the plans, we will get 8 gates (1 large at each end, plus 6 normal gates) which is +1 on the current situation so that is positive, especially as the Vix gates have the sily QR scanner placement which slows everyone down.

Something that did get my interest though is 2 new video help points. One near the barrier where the existing ad board is on the unpaid side, and one near the unpaid fare ticket machine on on the 'paid' side of the barrier. I've not seen these before on the TFW network but my expeirence on RailPoint machines is quite negative so I'm not sure if these will be useful but time will tell. (Photo attached of the proposed video help point, screenshot taken from the Design and Access Statement on the planning application)

 

[Edvid]

TFW has submitted it's planning application into Cheshire West and Chester Council for alterations to Chester Station. https://pa.cheshirewestandchester.g....do?caseType=Application&keyVal=TGIPP3TEJGV00 (application 26/01795/LBC incase the link doesn't work)

Didn't realise Chester station is listed. (Note to self - this isn't the first time, PAYG expansions are bound to encounter this issue again)

That explains why there isn't even a solitary validator for Merseyrail's cEMV Tap & Go scheme there. TfW would need Listed Building Consent to enable even that minor a change, so they may as well apply to enable the full infrastructure set in one go.

New Vix gates being installed too which is kind of funny given that the gateline was only redone a few years ago

As they put it in the D&A statement, "the Cubic gate line equipment is now end of life and will be removed from all TfW stations by October 2026". As opposed to the actual reason which may be that TfL/Cubic only allow operators to connect Cubic gates and validators to their cEMV PAYG system, or so I've read on Reddit.

 

[gray1404]

I've had to look at some of the fares where the current North Wales pay as you go is taking place. There are some single fares for which pay as you go is more expensive than an Anytime Day Single.

Any new pay as you go scheme nowadays should have the ability for railcard discounts to be applied by default.

The situation at Chester is currently diabolical. There can be frequently extensive ques at the gate line dangerously going up the stairs and onto the footbridge. There have been times when it has been very crowded and yet the staff never opened all of the gates just to allow people to walk through to ease crowding on safety grounds.

In short, it needs a much bigger gate line or non at all.

There has been a total lack of integrated thinking hence the Merseyrail contactless card system not working at Chester too.

 

[markymark2000]

That explains why there isn't even a solitary validator for Merseyrail's cEMV Tap & Go scheme there.

There is a reader on platform 7B but I'm not sure if it just does smart cards or does tap and go as well. I'd presume if it does permit tap and go, it's still promoted as not including Chester because of the issues on the gateline.

The situation at Chester is currently diabolical. There can be frequently extensive ques at the gate line dangerously going up the stairs and onto the footbridge. There have been times when it has been very crowded and yet the staff never opened all of the gates just to allow people to walk through to ease crowding on safety grounds.

I travel through Chester regularly and rarely found the queues too bad. The issue is that for some reason, Chester seems to be where everyone goes for their first ever train journey and people become completely bemused by the fact that they need to find and produce a ticket to get through the barriers. And worse still, they insist on standing Infront of all the barriers for 5 minutes while they find their ticket.

Though granted this won't be helped with the Vix barriers as people will additionally be trying to find the scanner.

In short, it needs a much bigger gate line or non at all.

I'd also say with the large number of tickets that seem to be sold on the 'paid' side of the gate line, the barriers are very much needed. You only have to look at the Bache to Chester ticket sales data to see what a positive impact the barriers have.

 

[gray1404]

There is a reader on platform 7B but I'm not sure if it just does smart cards or does tap and go as well. I'd presume if it does permit tap and go, it's still promoted as not including Chester because of the issues on the gateline.


I travel through Chester regularly and rarely found the queues too bad. The issue is that for some reason, Chester seems to be where everyone goes for their first ever train journey and people become completely bemused by the fact that they need to find and produce a ticket to get through the barriers. And worse still, they insist on standing Infront of all the barriers for 5 minutes while they find their ticket.

Though granted this won't be helped with the Vix barriers as people will additionally be trying to find the scanner.


I'd also say with the large number of tickets that seem to be sold on the 'paid' side of the gate line, the barriers are very much needed. You only have to look at the Bache to Chester ticket sales data to see what a positive impact the barriers have.

The problem with Chester is that the ques and crowding can become so excessive and in such a small area. Even when it is dangerously crowded I am yet to see the barriers open to allow free movement to prevent injury. I personally think the solution is to have more ticket barriers there with a much wider gate line. I have also observed as a station where people using e-tickets in particular have a habit of blocking the barriers while they find them.

 

[Djgr]

There is a reader on platform 7B but I'm not sure if it just does smart cards or does tap and go as well. I'd presume if it does permit tap and go, it's still promoted as not including Chester because of the issues on the gateline.


I travel through Chester regularly and rarely found the queues too bad. The issue is that for some reason, Chester seems to be where everyone goes for their first ever train journey and people become completely bemused by the fact that they need to find and produce a ticket to get through the barriers. And worse still, they insist on standing Infront of all the barriers for 5 minutes while they find their ticket.

Though granted this won't be helped with the Vix barriers as people will additionally be trying to find the scanner.


I'd also say with the large number of tickets that seem to be sold on the 'paid' side of the gate line, the barriers are very much needed. You only have to look at the Bache to Chester ticket sales data to see what a positive impact the barriers have.

At present Metrocard is supported at Chester but not Tap and Go credit/debit card.

Metrocard works fine at the gateline and so I guess the Platform 7B validator is for those travellers leaving the Wirral line but then going further afield by train e.g to Helsby.

The occasional queues at the gateline reflect the fact that certain stations in the North West tend to get rammed, especially at the weekend. Chester is one and Liverpool Lime Street is another. Both cities also host a number of regular events that attract rail "virgins" e.g. horseracing.

 

[markymark2000]

At present Metrocard is supported at Chester but not Tap and Go credit/debit card.

Even on this one reader? I know tap and go is not official valid to Chester but I wasnt sure if they amended this reader for both metrocard and tap and go just to help some people who don't read the signs.

The occasional queues at the gateline reflect the fact that certain stations in the North West tend to get rammed, especially at the weekend. Chester is one and Liverpool Lime Street is another. Both cities also host a number of regular events that attract rail "virgins" e.g. horseracing.

I think it's also the fact that the main trains all come in at the same time. Between xx:40 and xx:50 there's the Merseyrail, Llandudno, Crewe, Holyhead and Manchester Airport services all arriving.


It is a bit of a shame that the old secondary entrance/exit isn't still available under the stairs arch. Granted it needed staff for manual checks and it was entrance/exit only (against the flow) but it was handy to save people getting as stuck. But now it's covered by the new customer service/ticket sales desk.

Maybe if crowds keep growing, opening up a new events only entrance/exit gate (for use against the flow) could be added near the cycle spaces/near the P1/Parcels buffers. They do need to do something though so all 7/8 barriers can be used with the flow of passengers during major crowding times/days.

 

[gray1404]

Chester is the one station where I had 2 strangers tailgate me through the wide barrier and had a member of staff (I can hardly forget her pink hair) aggressively shout at me for their behaviour. When I ignored her she swore at me.

It was so crowded with people queuing right across the footbridge from platform 7B.

 

[niconico]

Transport for Wales really need to consider integration or at least some form of ticketing acceptance with Merseyrail at some point. From Chester there will be 3 ways of getting to Liverpool (both via Wrexham and Bidston, Merseyrail via Birkenhead, or TfW via Runcorn), and if they want to add PAYG ticketing for the line to Liverpool via Runcorn, which I'd be surprised if they don't, then they will really have to do something.

The railcard situation is frustrating as is for all contactless PAYG ticketing systems, though since someone said they are adding support through their app in this thread (I'd love to read more about this if someone could shoot a source over), it wouldn't be so bad. I just hope this is launched before they release the PAYG extension to Chester.

I'm glad that Chester will at least have two separate validator colours like Bidston does, but it doesn't avoid the issue of there... being two validators, it just feels unnecessary. Chester only accepts Metrocards, surely they could just allow them to be used on the TfW machines? Eh, that's just my two-pennies worth.

 

[Deerfold]

From a random example on their fare calculator PAYG single is cheaper than standard paper ticket. For longer journeys once it's expands I'm guessing that difference will grow (Cardiff to Abergavenny being a good example in South Wales).
Also remember the system will automatically give you the cheaper fare either way. Obviously in this particular return case the Railcard discount would make it even cheaper so it depends on your journey.

So while some signage can probably be improved and maybe signage to say they can buy on board (though installing a ticket machine too is probably worthwhile). I suspect in at least some cases PAYG will be cheaper even Vs the Railcard discount, I know it is for me in south Wales.

Doesn't your attachment show that PAYG is 50% more expensive for your return journey?

 

[positron]

Doesn't your attachment show that PAYG is 50% more expensive for your return journey?

Yes. On that example it is. Though like I mentioned there's other routes where it saves at least a fair few quid (like Cardiff to Abergavenny in the southern scheme).

I can't remember if PAYG can automatically apply a return ticket price like it can a single when I posted that I was thinking it did but now I don't know if it does but there are daily caps and stuff.

 

[Edvid]

I can't remember if PAYG can automatically apply a return ticket price like it can a single when I posted that I was thinking it did but now I don't know if it does but there are daily caps and stuff.

It can, per post #24.

 

[Northerngirl]

Has anyone actually had a go of it yet, despite living on the line Ive yet to make a journey thats in the zone only.

 

[niconico]

Has anyone actually had a go of it yet, despite living on the line Ive yet to make a journey thats in the zone only.

I tried it the other day from Bidston to Wrexham Central! It was way cheaper than the walk up fares so I'm glad for the system to be honest. The readers make the same noise as the Manchester Metrolink readers if you're familiar (and Merseyrail used the same noise up until recently). Was my first time being able to catch one of the D-Trains which was so interesting to me, they feel a lot more cramped which I guess makes sense due to the lower loading guage

 

[Northerngirl]

I tried it the other day from Bidston to Wrexham Central! It was way cheaper than the walk up fares so I'm glad for the system to be honest. The readers make the same noise as the Manchester Metrolink readers if you're familiar (and Merseyrail used the same noise up until recently). Was my first time being able to catch one of the D-Trains which was so interesting to me, they feel a lot more cramped which I guess makes sense due to the lower loading guage

I hadn't really thought about it showing up on the app aha, I'll have to give it a go for the novelty. Glad you have noticed the sound being different on merseyrail now, I though it seemed off

 

[Edvid]

Installation of video help points and Vix gatelines at seven TfW stations is the subject of yesterday's press release.

05 Aug 2026

Transport for Wales rolls out new technology at seven stations this summer​

New technology is set to be introduced at seven stations across the Wales and borders network this summer to improve accessibility, customer support and station operations.

The works will see modernised gatelines, colleague tablet devices and new interactive video help points installed at Cardiff Queen Street, Neath, Swansea, Rhyl, Chester, Shrewsbury and Newport.

Designed to make station access easier and more accessible, the project combines modernised barriers with improved on-the-ground support to keep passengers moving smoothly as part of Transport for Wales’ (TfW) ongoing investment in station infrastructure.

Darren Haynes, Head of Customer Operations at Transport for Wales said: “This investment across seven of our major stations will significantly improve daily station operations and enhance the passenger experience.

“These updates are designed to make every journey smoother while equipping our frontline colleagues with modern tools to ensure our stations remain welcoming and accessible for everyone.”

Work will take place across five days at each location between Monday 3 August and Thursday 1 October.

During installation and commissioning, the new gates will remain out of service while comprehensive testing is completed. Passengers will still be able to travel as normal, with manual ticket inspections carried out by station colleagues.

Passengers using pay as you go tap-in contactless payment are advised to always tap in upon entry and tap out upon exit. Failing to tap out may result in an incomplete journey charge, though any missing details can easily be corrected through the TfW app or online account.

The notes to editors include dates for when this work will take place at each station, indeed it's already underway at Queen Street.

Cardiff Queen Street: 3–7 August 2026
Neath: 17–21 August 2026
Swansea: 24–28 August 2026
Rhyl: 7–11 September 2026
Chester: 13–18 September 2026
Shrewsbury: 21–25 September 2026
Newport: 26 September–1 October 2026

To reduce the impact on customers and local communities, the majority of any noisy construction activity will be carried out overnight wherever possible.

The introduction of Station Control Units, mounted tablet devices located at gatelines, will give station teams an additional and more accessible way to operate gates alongside the existing CAST mobile application.

Video Help Points will provide direct access to assistance when needed. The help points offer two-way video and audio communication, enabling customers to speak directly with staff if they require support, for example if a ticket is not accepted at a gate. They will also provide access to self-service information.

The Video Help Points form part of a wider solution to support remote gateline operation, helping TfW provide assistance to customers quickly and efficiently while maintaining a safe and welcoming station environment.

Chester is included in the list, which as previously noted is key to both the TfW and Merseyrail cEMV PAYG schemes. Dates there are dependent on Cheshire West and Chester Council granting Listed Building Consent in good time, though their Planning Committee may call it in; same goes for Flintshire County Council and the validators at Flint.

 

[Djgr]

Installation of video help points and Vix gatelines at seven TfW stations is the subject of yesterday's press release.



The notes to editors include dates for when this work will take place at each station, indeed it's already underway at Queen Street.



Chester is included in the list, which as previously noted is key to both the TfW and Merseyrail cEMV PAYG schemes. Dates there are dependent on Cheshire West and Chester Council granting Listed Building Consent in good time, though their Planning Committee may call it in; same goes for Flintshire County Council and the validators at Flint.

Presumably TfW North Wales PAYG will not be extended to Chester until all the stations on the North Wales coast have validators (and not just dotted around).

I can't see anything specifically saying that this will allow Merseyrail non Metrocard PAYG at Chester?

 

[positron]

The slightly odd bit here is that Cardiff queen street already has VIX gates. And as far as I can tell Swansea and Neath have no use for the Vix gates (there's no South West Wales PAYG). So it'll be interesting to know what they're actually doing and how they've decided which stations to choose.

The video help points are useful though. I'm not sure I really understand the staff tablet bit though.

 

[Edvid]

Presumably TfW North Wales PAYG will not be extended to Chester until all the stations on the North Wales coast have validators (and not just dotted around).

I've not seen any examples elsewhere to the contrary.

(As a reminder Rhyl is the western boundary of Phase 2)

I can't see anything specifically saying that this will allow Merseyrail non Metrocard PAYG at Chester?

Nothing in that press release, which is no surprise since TOCs aren't in the habit of referring to PAYG schemes they don't participate in.

The slightly odd bit here is that Cardiff queen street already has VIX gates. And as far as I can tell Swansea and Neath have no use for the Vix gates (there's no South West Wales PAYG). So it'll be interesting to know what they're actually doing and how they've decided which stations to choose.

TfW are doing away with Cubic gates and validators across their network.