TfW PAYG - North Wales

[tigermonstera]

TfW have announced that the first phase of PAYG in North Wales will launch on May 18th and will be between Wrexham and Bidston:

They are also an important step in preparing for the rollout of phase one of Pay as you Go (PAYG) in North Wales this year. The first phase of the rollout, which goes live on 18 May, includes 15 stations from Wrexham General – Bidston.

Bidston is not a TfW station however a TfW platform validator is available at the station to enable PAYG use

Should there be one thread for PAYG across all of Wales or should the North and South networks have separate threads?

 

[Farigiraf]

Will it be possible to fuse this PAYG system with Merseyrail Tap&Go in the future?

 

[Edvid]

Included within yesterday's announcement on May 2026 timetable changes is that the Borderlands Line will be the first phase of TfW's North Wales PAYG zone on 18 May.

[The timetable changes] are also an important step in preparing for the rollout of phase one of Pay as you Go (PAYG) in North Wales this year. The first phase of the rollout, which goes live on 18 May, includes 15 stations from Wrexham General – Bidston.

TfW is pleased to be bringing PAYG to North Wales following its incredible success in Southeast Wales, delivering the same value and convenience to the people of North Wales.

[...]

Bidston is not a TfW station however a TfW platform validator is available at the station to enable PAYG use

Later this year a Chester-centric second phase will be added, so out to Rhyl / Gobowen / Runcorn East.

Pay as you go in North Wales | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

Following these initial stations, we'll be expanding it to:

• Chester
• Chirk
• Flint
• Frodsham
• Gobowen
• Helsby
• Prestatyn
• Rhyl
• Ruabon
• Runcorn East

Bidston is managed by Merseyrail, so I wonder if TfW will permit a reciprocal (interim) arrangement concerning Merseyrail's PAYG scheme at Chester on 18 May until the gates are replaced.

 

[Edvid]

Beat me to it!

Will it be possible to fuse this PAYG system with Merseyrail Tap&Go in the future?

They're both Tracsis systems (smartTIS)* so it's technically possible.

[* Assuming TfW adopt the South Wales model]

 

[Kite159]

You can picture it now at Bidston having two types of readers for Contactless, one for merseyrail the other for TfW

 

[Wallsendmag]

You can picture it now at Bidston having two types of readers for Contactless, one for merseyrail the other for TfW

RDG have a project in flight to avoid exactly this scenario

 

[nwales58]

You can picture it now at Bidston having two types of readers for Contactless, one for merseyrail the other for TfW

which is exactly how it works in the Netherlands, including during your 3 minute connection having to find the coloured posts, match the train colour to the coloured readers that you tap out and tap in again on.

So not ideal but it can work.

 

[positron]

Nice to see the system expand but they do need to solve exactly this kind of Interop problem before it can be a full success.

I wonder why the heart of Wales line isn't used as a test bed too. It's fairly self enclosed except at the Llanelli and Shrewsbury ends.

 

[Djgr]

Nice to see the system expand but they do need to solve exactly this kind of Interop problem before it can be a full success.

I wonder why the heart of Wales line isn't used as a test bed too. It's fairly self enclosed except at the Llanelli and Shrewsbury ends.

Probably the large number of stations coupled with low footfall would make it a difficult test bed

 

[gray1404]

The North Wales system is going to catch a lot of people out. A lot of people travel from Rhyl heading West.

 

[positron]

The North Wales system is going to catch a lot of people out. A lot of people travel from Rhyl heading West.

I suspect phase 3 will include Rhyl to maybe Llandudno and Conwy maybe. It does say in one of their FAQs that future phases might go West. I'm sure some people will fall foul of it same way people chance it to get west of Pyle in South Wales.

 

[AllWork]

I saw that the PAYG single and caps are now on BRFares but will there (or was there) be any consultation on them / are they the final fares?

It seems to me that many journeys will be higher than a standard return. Eg PNF-WRX is £3.90 vs 2x2.80 PAYG singles or £6 for the cap.

I know in the south there is a commitment to not being more expensive than the walk up ticket but not sure if that will be true up here.

 

[Belperpete]

TfW aren't the only TOC running services between Rhyl and Chester. Avanti do too, and they often seem to undercut the TfW fares. How is the contactless going to work with Avanti services?

 

[drueberflug]

How is the contactless going to work with Avanti services?

For now, probably not at all.

For the initial launch of pay as you go in North Wales, the scheme will only be available on TfW services.

 

[Belperpete]

For now, probably not at all.

So what will happen if you tap in, and then discover that the next service is going to be an Avanti service rather than a TfW service? At certain times, every other train is an Avanti train.

It would be like if TfL allowed contactless on District and Metropolitan line services, but not on the Circle line. Having a contactless system that only works for some of the services on a route is madness.

 

[Djgr]

So what will happen if you tap in, and then discover that the next service is going to be an Avanti service rather than a TfW service? At certain times, every other train is an Avanti train.

It would be like if TfL allowed contactless on District and Metropolitan line services, but not on the Circle line. Having a contactless system that only works for some of the services on a route is madness.

I believe that's currently the case in South Wales, where GWR won't play ball.

 

[positron]

So what will happen if you tap in, and then discover that the next service is going to be an Avanti service rather than a TfW service? At certain times, every other train is an Avanti train.

You just have to wait till a Tfw Train comes along, or tap back out and buy a normal ticket.

It would be like if TfL allowed contactless on District and Metropolitan line services, but not on the Circle line. Having a contactless system that only works for some of the services on a route is madness.

Not really the same situation at all.

I agree it's a ridiculous situation to be in, it's even worse in south wales because cross country do support it so its not even a just tfw thing. I suspect first group being involved with Avanti and gwr will mean they both don't support it until nationalisation at the earliest.

At least for the initial launch it's just the Wrexham to (not quite) Liverpool line so only one company.

 

[Djgr]

You just have to wait till a Tfw Train comes along, or tap back out and buy a normal ticket.

Not really the same situation at all.

I agree it's a ridiculous situation to be in, it's even worse in south wales because cross country do support it so its not even a just tfw thing. I suspect first group being involved with Avanti and gwr will mean they both don't support it until nationalisation at the earliest.

At least for the initial launch it's just the Wrexham to (not quite) Liverpool line so only one company.

The fun and games for the initial launch will be people tapping the wrong reader at Bidston

 

[positron]

The fun and games for the initial launch will be people tapping the wrong reader at Bidston

Oh yeah that'll absolutely catch people out and should be a priority to fix post launch.

 

[Djgr]

Oh yeah that'll absolutely catch people out and should be a priority to fix post launch.

Perhaps the TfW one should be in Welsh and the Merseyrail one in English!!!

 

[srg]

And the readers are now in place at bidston

 

[Edvid]

As per the North Wales zonal map - all Welsh stations are in Zone 1, Neston / Heswall in Zone 3 and Upton / Bidston in Zone 5. Looks like Zones 2 & 4 are empty until the second phase goes live.

 

[Djgr]

As per the North Wales zonal map - all Welsh stations are in Zone 1, Neston / Heswall in Zone 3 and Upton / Bidston in Zone 5. Looks like Zones 2 & 4 are empty until the second phase goes live.

Seems strange not to populate Zones 2 and 4, given that this is a bit of a proof of concept for North Wales

Fares on the Borderlands line are generally very reasonable and so I am not sure how popular Tap and Go will be, especially with those with railcards and, of course those with LCR concessionary passes and Saveaways won't use them.

 

[Edvid]

It seems to me that many journeys will be higher than a standard return. Eg PNF-WRX is £3.90 vs 2x2.80 PAYG singles or £6 for the cap.

I know in the south there is a commitment to not being more expensive than the walk up ticket but not sure if that will be true up here.

Fares on the Borderlands line are generally very reasonable and so I am not sure how popular Tap and Go will be, especially with those with railcards and, of course those with LCR concessionary passes and Saveaways won't use them.

Passengers who use PAYG in North Wales will (generally speaking) be charged the non-Railcard walk-up fare if it's cheaper than the PAYG equivalent.

North Wales fares and capping | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

In some circumstances our standard walk-up fare may be the cheapest option, if this happens, we'll guarantee you pay the lowest fare possible. Below is an example:

• If an Anytime Day Single fare is cheaper than the pay as you go Single Leg price, you'll be charged the Anytime Day Single fare.
• If an Anytime Day Return fare is cheaper than the pay as you go Single Leg price x2, you'll be charged the Anytime Day Return fare.
• If a 7-Day Season fare is cheaper than the pay as you go weekly fare cap, you'll be charged the 7-Day Season fare.

 

[positron]

And the readers are now in place at bidston

Interesting that they've got a different type of reader there. Are they using Vix ones for the whole line? Perhaps they've got fed up with all the failings in south Wales? Vix iirc do the gate line gates they use down here but not the platform readers.

 

[Edvid]

Interesting that they've got a different type of reader there. Are they using Vix ones for the whole line? Perhaps they've got fed up with all the failings in south Wales? Vix iirc do the gate line gates they use down here but not the platform readers.

All the TfW PAYG standalone validators - both the older models in TfW's image library / smartcard page and the newer model pictured by srg - are supplied by Vix.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

It is interesting that Bidston has Pink/Red TFW validator and a Yellow Merseytravel validator for Tap and Go and Metrocards. Heswall the last station in the Merseytravel area has a yellow validator on a TFW station, with no signage (that I could see yesterday) saying it is not a Merseytravel validator and should only to be used for Pay and Go on TFW services. Can Merseytravel Smart Cards be used on this validator?

This may lead to some confusion given Merseytravel colour is yellow, and may lead to people not in the know, getting incomplete journey tap out TFW fines or tap in fines from Merseyrail. It's not economical to tap in at a TFW station and tap out at Bidston and then continue with Merseyrail's pay and go, as the journeys will be more expensive, especially where via Bidston tickets are available which are cheaper then TFW set fares.

Common sense would allow people to Tap in on a TFW station and Tap out on a Merseyrail Electric station given both systems have the same underlying supplier. This is very pertinent, as after all Transport of Wales have rebranded it the Wrexham Liverpool Line

 

[Djgr]

It is interesting that Bidston has Pink/Red TFW validator and a Yellow Merseytravel validator for Tap and Go and Metrocards. Heswall the last station in the Merseytravel area has a yellow validator on a TFW station, with no signage (that I could see yesterday) saying it is not a Merseytravel validator and should only to be used for Pay and Go on TFW services. Can Merseytravel Smart Cards be used on this validator?

This may lead to some confusion given Merseytravel colour is yellow, and may lead to people not in the know, getting incomplete journey tap out TFW fines or tap in fines from Merseyrail. It's not economical to tap in at a TFW station and tap out at Bidston and then continue with Merseyrail's pay and go, as the journeys will be more expensive, especially where via Bidston tickets are available which are cheaper then TFW set fares.

Common sense would allow people to Tap in on a TFW station and Tap out on a Merseyrail Electric station given both systems have the same underlying supplier. This is very pertinent, as after all Transport of Wales have rebranded it the Wrexham Liverpool Line

Tap and Go is only on the Northern and Wirral lines.

Metrocards (e.g. Concessionary passes, Saveaways) are not Tap and Go as such, and would only be used to activate gateline barriers (i.e. Liverpool city centre stations, Hamilton Square, Chester, Southport, Liverpool South Parkway). If there is no gateline barrier then platform validators are not used instead.

In other words, if I was travelling from Birkenhead Park to Heswall with my Metrocard concessionary pass, I would access the platform at Park, ignore the validator, show the card if required to ontrain staff, get off at Bidston, ignore the validator, show the card to the (friendly) TfW staff on the train, get off at Heswall, ignore the validator. Simples.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Tap and Go is only on the Northern and Wirral lines.

Metrocards (e.g. Concessionary passes, Saveaways) are not Tap and Go as such, and would only be used to activate gateline barriers (i.e. Liverpool city centre stations, Hamilton Square, Chester, Southport, Liverpool South Parkway). If there is no gateline barrier then platform validators are not used instead.

In other words, if I was travelling from Birkenhead Park to Heswall with my Metrocard concessionary pass, I would access the platform at Park, ignore the validator, show the card if required to ontrain staff, get off at Bidston, ignore the validator, show the card to the (friendly) TfW staff on the train, get off at Heswall, ignore the validator. Simples.

Its good to see you know more about the system than Joe Public does, but as suspected, I go to Heswall Station to pick someone up tonight and a local is tapping out with a metrocard. It came up with an error, which he just ignored. Luckily the individual had an over 60s concessionary pass so won't incur tap out fines. Whilst they have since put up posters showing the TFW zones and another one about use on the line, its not very clear.

I would guess, people are just seeing the same tap platform validator machines in the traditional Merseytravel colour that they see across Merseytravel area (Ferry, stations, etc), next to Merseytravel poster frames also yellow. In effect they will be thinking Merseytravel have fitted them. Everything else TFW related on the station has TFW's red / black colouring. It is no wonder Joe Public is getting confused. The person in question just assumed it was a Merseytravel validator.

For info, the concessionary part of the Merseytravel website says "just tap ... a platform validator", so the individual in question was in effect thinking he was doing the tap correctly.

I feel if they have had to put a special sign up at Bidston above the Red / Pink TFW validator, that TFW should be putting up more explicit signage on the Borderland Line or should not used a validator in the traditional Merseytravel colour, especially in the Merseytravel area. It would not surprise me if the average person in the street, mistakenly thinks the tap and go has been extended and have tapped in with a bank or credit card, given both system have "and go" in the name and have yellow validators.

 

[Djgr]

Its good to see you know more about the system than Joe Public does, but as suspected, I go to Heswall Station to pick someone up tonight and a local is tapping out with a metrocard. It came up with an error, which he just ignored. Luckily the individual had an over 60s concessionary pass so won't incur tap out fines. Whilst they have since put up posters showing the TFW zones and another one about use on the line, its not very clear.

I would guess, people are just seeing the same tap platform validator machines in the traditional Merseytravel colour that they see across Merseytravel area (Ferry, stations, etc), next to Merseytravel poster frames also yellow. In effect they will be thinking Merseytravel have fitted them. Everything else TFW related on the station has TFW's red / black colouring. It is no wonder Joe Public is getting confused. The person in question just assumed it was a Merseytravel validator.

For info, the concessionary part of the Merseytravel website says "just tap ... a platform validator", so the individual in question was in effect thinking he was doing the tap correctly.

I feel if they have had to put a special sign up at Bidston above the Red / Pink TFW validator, that TFW should be putting up more explicit signage on the Borderland Line or should not used a validator in the traditional Merseytravel colour, especially in the Merseytravel area. It would not surprise me if the average person in the street, mistakenly thinks the tap and go has been extended and have tapped in with a bank or credit card, given both system have "and go" in the name and have yellow validators.

It is clearly an issue where two totally independent Tap and Go systems converge at a single point (Bidston has never been so important).

That said there are always anomalies in border areas, which is why the bus fare from Chester to Wrexham is capped but not the other way around, why some post boxes in Birkenhead have instructions in Welsh and why in analogue times Heswall received its local news from Cardiff rather than Manchester!