• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

222001

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2006
Messages
837
Location
Chesterfield
Depends on what budget and maintenance specifications Hitachi have been given by the DfT via EMR. There’s a world of difference between proactive maintenance and only fixing what has immediately failed.
Indeed, I'm just very sceptical of the abilities of Hitachi given the 810 farce.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Sorry does that say the 10:10 is a 5 coaches with the rear 3 coaches locked? 2 coaches surely won't be fun.
Think it could actually be a 10 car - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W70956/2026-07-22/detailed

Looks like it's to get failed 222014 back to Derby.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

richardderby

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2010
Messages
408
EMR being 'nationalised' hasn't been announced yet, and with December officially announced for GWR, I'd guess EMR won't be until after then at the very least.
well regardless of if it is as scheduled on the 18th of October when the core franchise ends, or a few months later, EMR have not got long to go..
 

jthjth

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2015
Messages
382
Indeed, I'm just very sceptical of the abilities of Hitachi given the 810 farce.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Think it could actually be a 10 car - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W70956/2026-07-22/detailed

Looks like it's to get failed 222014 back to Derby.
Hitachi’s manufacturing staff and their maintenance staff are two different sets of people. Probably all they share is the company name, and that neither were Hitachi that long ago.
 

dosxuk

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
2,428
Hitachi are also responsible for maintenance of the 222s, and I'd say it's been a downward slope ever since they took over the maintenance from Alstom.
Hitachi were awarded the maintenance contract by EMR. They own that decision and the terms of that contract, including setting the consequences for not meeting the standards laid out.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,015
Location
West Wiltshire
Has any of this been under the control of EMR’s management? Remember that since Covid non nationalised franchises have been operated under National Rail Contracts, where the DfT specifies exactly what can be spent where.
The 810s order was announced July 2019, about 8 months before Covid.

The management contracts more froze the levels of services levels, and existing plans, than allowed unplanned or new changes going forward. So could argue the National Rail contracts included the intended traction changeover from 222s to 810s.

What it didn't fund was extended period of both fleets in parallel, beyond what was originally intended, but that's almost irrelevant because EMR hasn't been running additional trains, just one type or other.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,253
Hitachi were awarded the maintenance contract by EMR. They own that decision and the terms of that contract, including setting the consequences for not meeting the standards laid out.
It appears to have been DfT policy for some time for new rolling stock to be maintained by fleet staff employed by the manufacturer of that rolling stock, regardless of what EMR management may have wished for.
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
10,290
I agreed it seems no different to any other toc with any other fleet that has faults appearing during the day.

the reset process described above is exactly the same as on all other 8XX fleets and I can guarantee happens several times a day on all the TOCs that operate these Hitachi fleets
I’m getting the impression that they aren’t taking issue with the reset process itself - more the amount of times they’re having to use it. Things like frequency/likelihood of having to take an action should be properly reflected in any risk assessment, as what is considered acceptable for a situation that only arises once in a blue moon might not be considered acceptable to be happening multiple times per day.
 

YamYamDave

Member
Joined
22 May 2021
Messages
15
Location
Black Country
Heard many years ago a senior engineer for one of the EU train builders saying making stuff fit our loading gauge is a bit like that scene in Apollo13 chucking stuff on a table and making an “working” oxygen filter. Squeezing the same kit into a smaller space always has a limit, and it appears the 810 has exceeded what can be squeezed into an AT300.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,581
The point of the strike will be to put a strong and firm message out that this needs addressing ASAP, hence going for the biggest impact

Genuinely, I‘d like to know how you have reached the opinion that

1) EMR management do not already know this needs addressing asap
2) EMR management are not supremely frustrated with the situation and have not been doing all they can to remedy it, and,
3) how a strike, which will divert management time and focus away from trying to resolve it, will help passengers, or your colleagues, in any way.
 

Denis103

Member
Joined
22 Mar 2018
Messages
104
810022 appears to have a fault and the 1802 St Pancras to Sheffield (1F65) was terminated early at Leicester.
810022 was going like the clappers on the 0832 x StP this morning and 5 early at Sharnbrook only to catch up a Corby but looks to have burst at Leicester on the 1802 1F65 to Sheffield
 

Teapot42

Member
Joined
12 Jan 2022
Messages
1,102
Obviously - and particularly given its proximity to Sheffield, they _should_ have been activating the strategic reserve from the Woodhead tunnel.
I only hope Hitachi weren't contracted to maintain said strategic reserve...

Quick question on St Pancras operations - looking on RTT today there are a lot of moves to/from Cricklewood. Many today were cancelled - are these just planned in case they are needed, or would they typically be used if it wasn't for the reduced timetable? Is this just to free up platform space?

Also noted a few STP-STP moves, looking deeper they seem to be to Kentish Town and back - presumably also just to free up a platform or move a train to another platform for whatever reason?

Would it be fair to say that with 5/6/7 platforms at STP these wouldn't be needed?
 

31160

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2018
Messages
1,268
I hope the operator are getting some sort of financial kick back for all this farce, and it's not going to some offshore tax haven
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,581
Also noted a few STP-STP moves, looking deeper they seem to be to Kentish Town and back - presumably also just to free up a platform or move a train to another platform for whatever reason?

Yes, many such moves in the work8ng timetable.


Would it be fair to say that with 5/6/7 platforms at STP these wouldn't be needed?

It would be fair to say that with a common fleet for the Nottingham and Sheffield services these wouldn’t be needed.
 

liamf656

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2020
Messages
1,692
Location
Derby
Genuinely, I‘d like to know how you have reached the opinion that

1) EMR management do not already know this needs addressing asap
2) EMR management are not supremely frustrated with the situation and have not been doing all they can to remedy it, and,
3) how a strike, which will divert management time and focus away from trying to resolve it, will help passengers, or your colleagues, in any way.
There is no denying that EMR management and the company themselves are frustrated and it is clear how important it is to them, especially as they have named Hitachi in their press releases. I hope that the dispute with the RMT raises that importance further.

Somebody on twitter, in regards to the fleet issues, used the wording "spiralling out of control". If this is true and it continues, how much more are frontline staff supposed to handle?

As you will know, the issues between the RMT and EMR will also go beyond the maintenance of the fleet or the basics of the 810 rollout. I'm just going to quote the below from the RMT to give my opinion:
RMT general secretary Eddie Dempsey said that RMT reps at EMR had been extremely patient and tried to engage with management to no avail.

“The company has even put out safety notices with no involvement, consultation or negotiation with our reps who represent those most at risk.

“RMT is demanding that whilst these faults exist and until these trains are shown to be operating properly, they should be taken out of service,” he said.
This reads to me that there are also communication issues between the RMT and EMR with regards to the fleet issues and that the RMT and its members are at the end of their tether now. This dispute has been going on since April with no resolution in sight, so strike action, in my opinion, would now be the next step.

Whether or not a strike would work or help, we'll see, but I doubt they (the staff) can sit and wait any longer while these issues keep happening, no matter whose at fault. If you see the amount of faults and problems that get mentioned in this thread (and the 222 reliability thread), imagine the issues that occur, that don't end up on these forums.

Personally, I hope that this strike would make enough noise and coverage to finally get the ball rolling for a resolution, if not from EMR, but other organisations that are involved.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,253
This dispute has been going on since April with no resolution in sight, so strike action, in my opinion, would now be the next step.
I'm not conversant with what a union can and can't declare on behalf of its members, but is a blanket ongoing refusal to work class 810s an option open to the RMT membership, rather than total withdrawal of labour for a day? It seems to me that the problem with strike action is that it is taken, the members lose a day of pay, no progress is made with the 810 issue, then they have nothing to show for it afterwards.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,015
Location
West Wiltshire
I'm not conversant with what a union can and can't declare on behalf of its members, but is a blanket ongoing refusal to work class 810s an option open to the RMT membership, rather than total withdrawal of labour for a day? It seems to me that the problem with strike action is that it is taken, the members lose a day of pay, no progress is made with the 810 issue, then they have nothing to show for it afterwards.
Yes in theory a union could blacklist a particular type as 'unsafe' and refuse to operate that type, but continue working other types.

Having a strike covering all types of traction just loses its members money. Disrupting a 222 service, a type that has been used 24 years and now suddenly deciding strike based on calendar period, not by type of train makes no sense.

The RMT also needs to be careful, that it doesn't undermine the regulator that has approved the type (it might even have members who work there). If it is aware of critical or dangerous faults then presumably it should be taking them to the Rail regulator that approved them, or Rail Accident branch (as unacceptable hazard), and explaining what the worries are.

Simply having 3 random days of not working, but happy to work the trains between the strike days. It's bonkers safety logic by RMT.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,253
Simply having 3 random days of not working, but happy to work the trains between the strike days. It's bonkers safety logic by RMT.
Thanks. It does seem a bit odd, but perhaps they expect it to be disruptive enough that it will get the attention they want it to deliver.
 

waterboo

Member
Joined
24 Jul 2013
Messages
209
You have to remember that in most circumstances the union are also involved in unit acceptance.
 

Rob F

Member
Joined
17 Dec 2015
Messages
453
Location
Notts
A lot is said about “squeezing” equipment into the 24m class 810, but am I mistaken in thinking the bogie centres are the same as on a standard 26m class 80x? If this is the case, how much stuff is mounted outboard of the bogies on a 26m variant and where has it been relocated on an 810?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,581
There is no denying that EMR management and the company themselves are frustrated and it is clear how important it is to them, especially as they have named Hitachi in their press releases. I hope that the dispute with the RMT raises that importance further.

How does a strike raise the importance? And with who? As you say, the management team (indeed whole comapny) already know how important the 810 issue is to.

However, planning for and dealing with a strike is now going to be the most important thing for the management team, so it seems to me that the strike will lower the importance of the 810 issue in relative terms.
 

DelW

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2015
Messages
5,934
It appears to have been DfT policy for some time for new rolling stock to be maintained by fleet staff employed by the manufacturer of that rolling stock, regardless of what EMR management may have wished for.
While that's a reasonable policy, it seems to be problematic to require the builder of the new fleet to take over maintenance of the old fleet, when that was originally built by a competitor.

As well as this case, the reliability of TfW's 175s seemed to decline badly when their maintenance base at Chester was transferred from Alstom to CAF. It seems that CAF (there) and Hitachi (here) either lack the institutional knowledge to keep the old fleet in good order, or possibly have no real interest in looking after a competitor's products.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,850
Location
Northampton
While that's a reasonable policy, it seems to be problematic to require the builder of the new fleet to take over maintenance of the old fleet, when that was originally built by a competitor.

As well as this case, the reliability of TfW's 175s seemed to decline badly when their maintenance base at Chester was transferred from Alstom to CAF. It seems that CAF (there) and Hitachi (here) either lack the institutional knowledge to keep the old fleet in good order, or possibly have no real interest in looking after a competitor's products.

my bold

I'm not sure about that. The word at the time was that Alsthom* baied out of the 222 maintenance contract - possibly in high dudgeon - as soon as it was announced that Hitachi had won the contract for the building their replacement. Whether that has any basis in reality I don't know.

Edit; correction, Bombardier not Alsthom - see post from D365 below.
 
Last edited:

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,015
Location
West Wiltshire
A lot is said about “squeezing” equipment into the 24m class 810, but am I mistaken in thinking the bogie centres are the same as on a standard 26m class 80x? If this is the case, how much stuff is mounted outboard of the bogies on a 26m variant and where has it been relocated on an 810?

The old saying Trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot is relevant.

As I understand it the 26m version was designed and packaged quite well, but with the shorter version some above floor equipment near vehicle ends was moved underfloor to free up cabin space and try and offset the shorter passenger saloon.

Apparently 70% of components had to be changed. There have also been suggestions (but don't know how true it is) that squeezing in equipment in remaining spaces means some items are rather cramped and difficult to inspect, check and maintain. Without knowing any details this seems logical, if modules are harder to access and close together then maintenance will take longer, and of course increases risk of knocking and damaging other parts.

My gut feeling is Hitachi made a mistake by agreeing to take on this relatively small non-standard build, rather than saying no. They might have done it on basis of expected repeat orders (which hasn't happened). With hindsight I suspect Hitachi curse having agreed to do this troublesome variation.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
13,156
I'm not sure about that. The word at the time was that Alsthom baied out of the 222 maintenance contract - possibly in high dudgeon - as soon as it was announced that Hitachi had won the contract for the building their replacement. Whether that has any basis in reality I don't know.
It was Bombardier at the time. With hindsight, who knows how things would have turned out if Abellio had taken up the ’Super Aventra’ option…
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,015
Location
West Wiltshire
BBC has another news story, with emphasis on how it is affecting businesses in South Yorkshire etc, because having to schedule extra time for travel.
Seems EMR caused two House of Lords peers to have to wait for another train then stand, so they have spoken to Lord Hendy (outcome unknown)

Business leaders and politicians say a reduced train service between Sheffield and London is already hitting trade and the northern economy.

East Midlands Railway (EMR) cut the number of journeys between Sheffield and London for the foreseeable future, with one businessman calling the route "critical for the survival of some businesses".

EMR said there were "service reliability issues" with a new fleet of trains and the reduced timetable would remain in place while it worked with the manufacturer.

David Richards, co-founder of Yorkshire AI Labs, said it was vital for businesses to have a reliable train service between South Yorkshire and the capital.

"EMR's announcement of a reduction in services and a smaller fleet in the route is pretty disastrous," he told BBC Radio Sheffield.

"This route is absolutely critical for the survival for some businesses, this will definitely impact on our economy.

"I had three investment bankers coming up from London to Sheffield for meetings and they had to travel up the day before.

"We are just asking for trains to be on time so people can get here, do meetings all day and then go home. They should be able to do this in a single day."


He continued: "When investors from London can actually make it up to Sheffield, they see this phenomenal opportunity.

"We have wonderful businesses and there are lots of opportunities here, but people simply have to be able to get here."

Richards, who lives in Sheffield, said he would now make a 45-minute drive to catch a train in Doncaster as the Doncaster to London LNER service was more frequent.

EMR said it had avoided consecutive cancellations and spread service reductions as evenly as possible across Sheffield, London and Nottingham routes.

The temporary timetable would be kept under regular review, it added.

Matt Travis, president of Barnsley and Rotherham Chamber of Commerce, said businesses in Rotherham would also now travel to Doncaster to pick up a London train service.

"EMR's reduced timetable on the Intercity routes is impacting for our local businesses as there is reduced reliability for same-day travel," he said.

"The reduced timetable and cancellations are resulting in lost productivity, increased travel costs and challenges in maintaining face-to-face meetings.

"It is just another hurdle for businesses to cope with following on from a series of challenges over the past few years and is frustrating."

Liberal Democrat peer Shaffaq Mohammed, who lives in Sheffield, said he had recently been impacted by rail disruption while travelling to the House of Lords.

"We have either had cancellations or delays for weeks now," Lord Mohammed said.

"Recently my train set off from Sheffield on time, but the journey was delayed and they said due to ongoing faults it was terminating at Leicester.

"The train was already quite full because EMR have cut a number of services.

"We waited half an hour and then had to join another train which was already full."

He continued: "On another occasion, my colleague Paul Scriven was on a train an hour before me. His train then developed a fault and had to pull over.

"He waited on a platform for 25 minutes to join my train, but it was already jam-packed so we both stood up the whole way."

Lord Mohammed says he had raised the issue with rail minister Lord Peter Hendy.

The Department for Transport said it had asked EMR "to do everything possible" to minimise disruption and make services more reliable.

The delays are due to problems transitioning to a new fleet of trains.

Manufacturer Hitachi Rail said the new fleet had been in passenger service with EMR since December 2025 and more than a third of the fleet had now been delivered.

It said it was working closely with industry partners, implementing improvements and was focused on delivering the remainder of the fleet and supporting EMR as more new trains enter passenger service.

 

marshlinker

Member
Joined
18 May 2026
Messages
143
Location
Romney Marsh
Does anybody know whether engine overhauls for the 222 fleet were carried out in house at Etches Park or were they contracted out?
If so to whom? and was this contract allowed to lapse?
 

liamf656

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2020
Messages
1,692
Location
Derby
How does a strike raise the importance? And with who? As you say, the management team (indeed whole comapny) already know how important the 810 issue is to.

However, planning for and dealing with a strike is now going to be the most important thing for the management team, so it seems to me that the strike will lower the importance of the 810 issue in relative terms.
The issue won't be solely between the RMT and EMR. By raising the importance of all issues (especially communication), I mean this politically and with media coverage. As with previous disputes, local MPs will be all over it and raising it with the DfT to ascertain what they are doing to mitigate this

I'm sure the few days planning for, and running during the strikes can be managed just fine, and hopefully they'll be doing everything and more to make sure there is no further action after these dates now that there is further pressure

The RMT won't have called a ballot and received a 97% yes vote for the hell of it

What would your alternative be to strike action? They can't just sit there and continue to let these issues happen, especially if, as they claim, there are safety issues
 

Top