Class 350/2s to replace 323s on Northern

[Stephen42]

If 37 350/2s are being transferred to Northern, that will save a new build of electric units saving the Treasury say £250 million? That £250 million should be spent on further electrification such as Windermere branch, Carnforth-Barrow, Wigan-Southport or Ardwick-New Mills where 350/2s can displace old diesel units.

The new Northern trains are planned to be leased. Any savings would be operational/resource spending not capital as a result and spread across many years. It doesn't free up a pot of money for infrastructure.

If anything short term costs will increase and it will be future years where the saving is realised. The industry needs to save money where it can and has challenging targets. DfT operator has a target to reduce net subsidy by a further £200 million this financial year alone despite the fare freeze.

 

[Dspatula]

Except I suspect that more grab rails would need to be added and the seat risers may well be in the wrong place.

Looking at the images I can find the third seat seems to be just cantilevered on the end so in theory you might be able to remove the window seat and move the other two towards the window keeping the seat back grab handle.
Doing the middle section between the doors would give the same sort of layout to a 769 which other than the lack bike space and the whole being inside a 769, I think is one of the better layouts at northern.
323s and 331 already only have seat back grab handles anyway.
The extra doors for a similar length will probably still be better than the 323s dire peak time dwell times on my line even without internal changes.
The extra toilet will be an improvement if nothing else.

 

[The Planner]

I’d think Chester-Stockport via Knutsford would have a far higher BCR than any of those for electrification?

Doubt it, not based on the mileage needed. £250m isn't going to get much more than 80 track kilometres, so a 40km route.

 

[lowe1409]

The Crewe-Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly service being split between Northern & LNR means they should have the units spare

Surely that'll only free one unit? They interwork with the via Stockport services and I believe there's 5 diagramed to cover both routes. With 1 for the airport -pic stopper, and 3 to cover the via Stockport using existing paths as well as covering it reliably (just look at how dire punctuality is on Sundays with 1 diagram covering the whole route) one unit doesn't go very far

 

[em81]

I’d think Chester-Stockport via Knutsford would have a far higher BCR than any of those for electrification?

Doubt it, not based on the mileage needed. £250m isn't going to get much more than 80 track kilometres, so a 40km route.

This is probably off topic but there was a feasbility study done. Mid Cheshire scores much higher than you might expect, as there's a lot of freight and some them could be switched to electric if only the Mid Cheshire was electrified. Plus, the Mid Cheshire has poor journey times so the faster electrification is of greater benefit than some other routes. Although, saying that I'm sure Calder Valley and the CLC line between Deansgate and Liverpool South Parkway had the best BCR.

 

[The Planner]

This is probably off topic but there was a feasbility study done. Mid Cheshire scores much higher than you might expect, as there's a lot of freight and some them could be switched to electric if only the Mid Cheshire was electrified. Plus, the Mid Cheshire has poor journey times so the faster electrification is of greater benefit than some other routes. Although, saying that I'm sure Calder Valley and the CLC line between Deansgate and Liverpool South Parkway had the best BCR.

I don't see how any of the freight could go electric, its either Drax traffic or out of the quarries.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I don't see how any of the freight could go electric, its either Drax traffic or out of the quarries.

Weren't GBRf testing a 99's performance on the Drax trains recently?

 

[AndrewE]

Weren't GBRf testing a 99's performance on the Drax trains recently?

Isn't Drax traffic an irrelevance? Hopefully it will expire in the very near future...

 

[em81]

I don't see how any of the freight could go electric, its either Drax traffic or out of the quarries.

You're forgetting the trains that carry Greater Manchester's waste from Northenden to Runcorn for incineration. As long as the siding at Northenden was done, as well as Hartford CL junction to Hartford junction.

 

[Class 466]

You're forgetting the trains that carry Greater Manchester's waste from Northenden to Runcorn for incineration. As long as the siding at Northenden was done, as well as Hartford CL junction to Hartford junction.

I’m a little confused, what does this have to do with 323s being replaced by 350s?

 

[em81]

The 350 is a good train. it is miles (MILES) better than the trains it will replace even with the 3 seat layout. They are good quality, reliable and have high capacity. Northern users should be pleased to be getting them. I am glad they have found a new home.

And, yes, the middle seats were used going into Euston every day. Not my favourite seat but better than standing for an hour.

Yes. That's how I see the Preston departures for Manchester. If it's a Blackpool train formed of 2x323s I'm guaranteed a seat, but it won't be a comfortable seat. If I get the slightly later train from Windermere or Barrow I might get a more comfortable seat, but I always feel there's a risk of not getting a seat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2026 ==

I’m a little confused, what does this have to do with 323s being replaced by 350s?

There's more 350/2s than 323s, so it looks like other people were speculating about what other routes could be electrified. I notice the thread's been moved to the speculative discussion forum.

 

[The Planner]

Isn't Drax traffic an irrelevance? Hopefully it will expire in the very near future...

Its got a good few years yet.

Weren't GBRf testing a 99's performance on the Drax trains recently?

It would be useful if they could get them up Miles Platting, even though getting along the Chat Moss isn't easy.

You're forgetting the trains that carry Greater Manchester's waste from Northenden to Runcorn for incineration. As long as the siding at Northenden was done, as well as Hartford CL junction to Hartford junction.

Thats noise in the grand scheme of things.

 

[em81]

Thats noise in the grand scheme of things.

Why? Greater Manchester has no landfill space left. I'm not aware of any plans to build a new incinerator in Greater Manchester. So those freight workings are long term and could switch to electric with just a single route being electrified. Then it strengthens the case for electrifying another route, as other freight workings will be "under the wires" a lot more.

 

[amahy]

Why? Greater Manchester has no landfill space left. I'm not aware of any plans to build a new incinerator in Greater Manchester. So those freight workings are long term and could switch to electric with just a single route being electrified. Then it strengthens the case for electrifying another route, as other freight workings will be "under the wires" a lot more.

But 1tph passenger and a few freight trains every day is nothing compared to many other lines around Manchester, such as Hope Valley, Calder Valley, and Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool, all of which would benefit from 3 or more passenger trains running on electric per hour, plus freight.

 

[em81]

But 1tph passenger and a few freight trains every day is nothing compared to many other lines around Manchester, such as Hope Valley, Calder Valley, and Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool, all of which would benefit from 3 or more passenger trains running on electric per hour, plus freight.

Like I said already I'm sure Calder Valley and Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool were higher prority on the taskforce report. I was mearly making the point Mid Cheshire is not as low down as some people might think, I think it was top 10 for all north of England routes. Remember it is supposed to have two services per hour Mon to Sat 07:00-19:00 but pathing restrictions have prevented the additional trains being added in. Faster accelerating electric trains could be part of the solution to that.

There's 3 trains per hour via Hope, as you say. One is Piccadilly to New Mills to Sheffield stopper. The other two are Liverpool to Sheffield and beyond services via Hazel Grove. So you'd need bi-modes to have any benefit, or need to do at least 3 routes concurrently, so you at least have Liverpool to Doncaster electric, and Liverpool to Nottingham electric.

Calder Valley and Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool also have the advantage that they would allow North TPE to have EMUs and still divert due to disruption and engineering works.

 

[Cowley]

There's more 350/2s than 323s, so it looks like other people were speculating about what other routes could be electrified. I notice the thread's been moved to the speculative discussion forum.

Yes it has, so obviously we’re a bit more relaxed about things in this section.

That said, it would be good to keep things vaguely on topic, so if anyone wants to start a separate thread covering other routes that could be electrified, please do.

 

[Class 466]

Also worth noting I created a separate thread to follow the upcoming movements and cascades so that it doesn’t get lost in the potentials and what ifs

 

[Cowley]

Also worth noting I created a separate thread to follow the upcoming movements and cascades so that it doesn’t get lost in the potentials and what ifs

This one?

Northern Class 323 & 350 Cascade Updates

Hi all, Thought I’d start a new thread, seen as the last one was moved to speculative with the endless “what if we electrified to X” and other discussions. I want this to be a place to discuss upcoming cascades of the 323s and 350s to/from Northern as well as updates on the units in/out of...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Class 466]

This one?

Northern Class 323 & 350 Cascade Updates

Hi all, Thought I’d start a new thread, seen as the last one was moved to speculative with the endless “what if we electrified to X” and other discussions. I want this to be a place to discuss upcoming cascades of the 323s and 350s to/from Northern as well as updates on the units in/out of...

www.railforums.co.uk

Yeah, that’s the one.

 

[The Planner]

Why? Greater Manchester has no landfill space left. I'm not aware of any plans to build a new incinerator in Greater Manchester. So those freight workings are long term and could switch to electric with just a single route being electrified. Then it strengthens the case for electrifying another route, as other freight workings will be "under the wires" a lot more.

One small flow gets you nowhere near a tipping point for electrification.

 

[oic]

My understanding was when with LM, the 350/2 had mileage based leasing costs. E.g. comparatively low standing costs but high use costs. I hope this is gone with the northern lease. You shouldn’t incentivise leaving trains in sidings.

The seat layout was not the most popular, but this was most acute when they were used for longer regional services to Crewe etc. I think they were fine on the Tring routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seat layout was not the most popular, but this was most acute when they were used for longer regional services to Crewe etc. I think they were fine on the Tring routes.

Actually very much the other way round. The commuters didn't like the 3+2 primarily facing seating (though legroom in the bays is first class level). The Crewes and Birminghams often carry a lot of family and friend groups who prefer the groups of 6 over rows of airline seats as their group can sit together, and as they know each other (and some are often kids) they don't mind it being a bit tight, it's no worse than the back seat of a car with three people in it.

Northern carries a lot of leisure passengers so it should suit well there too.

 

[em81]

One small flow gets you nowhere near a tipping point for electrification.

As you seem to want to disagree with everything I say I'll just point out I didn't work on Network Rail's electrification feasibility report, or influence it in anyway. It's fine to disagree on specifics, but you seem to want to dispute even the high level conclusions. If you're anti-electrification, or want to promote your personal favourites for electrification then that's fine, but I don't think it's worth engaging with you any further on potential electrification.

Obviously the recommendations didn't get funding (except maybe part of the Southport proposal) but these were tier 1 routes:

1. Calder Valley (Full)
2. Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central
3. Southport/Kirkby to Salford Crescent
4. Chester to Stockport
5. Northallerton to Middlesbrough
6. Leeds to York via Harrogate
7. Selby to Hull
8. Sheffield (Meadowhall) to Leeds via Barnsley / Castleford & connections
9. Bolton to Clitheroe
10. Sheffield to Doncaster/Wakefield Westgate (Dearne Valley)
11. Hazel Grove to Buxton
12. Warrington to Chester

And tier 2:

1. Manchester to Sheffield and south-east Manchester local services
2. York to Scarborough
3. Bishop Auckland/Darlington to Saltburn and Sunderland
4. Barnsley to Huddersfield
5. Sheffield to Lincoln via Retford
6. Chester to Crewe
7. Burnley to Colne &Kirkham to Blackpool South
8. Knottingley to Goole

Source: https://www.railtechnologymagazine....ts-northern-electrification-priorities-to-dft

It might be worth starting a new thread if anyone wants to discuss those.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

Actually very much the other way round. The commuters didn't like the 3+2 primarily facing seating (though legroom in the bays is first class level). The Crewes and Birminghams often carry a lot of family and friend groups who prefer the groups of 6 over rows of airline seats as their group can sit together, and as they know each other (and some are often kids) they don't mind it being a bit tight, it's no worse than the back seat of a car with three people in it.

Northern carries a lot of leisure passengers so it should suit well there too.

The facing 3+2 seats on the refurbished 150s at Northern are unpopular, except with a small number of families with very young children, partly due to the lack of leg room if someone's sat directly opposite you.

 

[Killingworth]

As you seem to want to disagree with everything I say I'll just point out I didn't work on Network Rail's electrification feasibility report, or influence it in anyway. It's fine to disagree on specifics, but you seem to want to dispute even the high level conclusions. If you're anti-electrification, or want to promote your personal favourites for electrification then that's fine, but I don't think it's worth engaging with you any further on potential electrification.

Obviously the recommendations didn't get funding (except maybe part of the Southport proposal) but these were tier 1 routes:

1. Calder Valley (Full)
2. Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central
3. Southport/Kirkby to Salford Crescent
4. Chester to Stockport
5. Northallerton to Middlesbrough
6. Leeds to York via Harrogate
7. Selby to Hull
8. Sheffield (Meadowhall) to Leeds via Barnsley / Castleford & connections
9. Bolton to Clitheroe
10. Sheffield to Doncaster/Wakefield Westgate (Dearne Valley)
11. Hazel Grove to Buxton
12. Warrington to Chester

And tier 2:

1. Manchester to Sheffield and south-east Manchester local services
2. York to Scarborough
3. Bishop Auckland/Darlington to Saltburn and Sunderland
4. Barnsley to Huddersfield
5. Sheffield to Lincoln via Retford
6. Chester to Crewe
7. Burnley to Colne &Kirkham to Blackpool South
8. Knottingley to Goole

Source: https://www.railtechnologymagazine....ts-northern-electrification-priorities-to-dft

It might be worth starting a new thread if anyone wants to discuss those.

That was in 2015! 11 years on and even Tier 1 hasn't changed. Discussion over.

 

[em81]

That was in 2015! 11 years on and even Tier 1 hasn't changed. Discussion over.

Unless there's a newer study it's still the most relevant report when discussing feasibility of electrifying different lines. It's seems the people who want to dismiss it all feel a particular route should be higher up or higher down. There's probably strong reasons they aren't e.g. the high cost of electrifying tunnels on the Hope Valley and only a local stopper to switch over, unless it's done after other routes.

One thing I will add is maybe Chester to Warrington has probably moved up, now it has through Calder Valley services and the Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn service starting. Chester to Crewe may have moved down because of the new BMUs replacing the 221s.

 

[Dspatula]

There's more 350/2s than 323s, so it looks like other people were speculating about what other routes could be electrified.

It's a difference of three trains which will almost certainly cover Golborne.

Northern carries a lot of leisure passengers so it should suit well there too.

Ah the amount of families I've heard go, 'Let's grab a table' as a 323 roles in.
It's going to be carnage in summer at those two table going to Blackpool in summer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah the amount of families I've heard go, 'Let's grab a table' as a 323 roles in.
It's going to be carnage in summer at those two table going to Blackpool in summer.

No actual tables in 350/2s of course, but there are plenty of facing bays which is what they mean. 5 in the centre sections and some at the ends too. Similar to 323s in number.

 

[The exile]

No actual tables in 350/2s of course, but there are plenty of facing bays which is what they mean. 5 in the centre sections and some at the ends too. Similar to 323s in number.

It’s not entirely what they mean - plenty actually want the table. (OK - speaking for elsewhere)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s not entirely what they mean - plenty actually want the table. (OK - speaking for elsewhere)

Fair point, people do like the actual table, but the primary desire is sitting together. I think the poster who talked of two tables was thinking of other 350s which have rather fewer facing bays than /2s.

 

[Dspatula]

No actual tables in 350/2s of course, but there are plenty of facing bays which is what they mean. 5 in the centre sections and some at the ends too. Similar to 323s in number.

unless they've been changed there are exactly two tables on a 350/2 northern don't run first class remember.