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Ticketing in the Netherlands is set up such that it's rare for the barriers not to let you through provided you have a valid payment method. Barriers in the UK often struggle to cope with the complexities of the British ticketing system, so the gates need staffing to let many passengers with perfectly valid tickets in and out.
Presumably the idea is AI can detect the tailgater, collection identifying information and flag it for investigation, potentially allowing collation of their travelling habits so the times they pass through can be used to revenue team/BTP to stop them.
Once you have the data it’s no different to what TfL do with card data. You don’t need AI just to stop tailgaters.
Or it will just give a better data point so revenue protection and security staff can be deployed to bring it back down to a reasonable level of evasion.
Further dialling up of the 'them and us' mentality. I hate gates. They often do not work reliably, people (me) faff about getting phones out and ready immediately prior leading to congestion, popping out to pick up a sandwich can be problematic. Not saying fare evasion isn't a problem, but don't think the optics work well given the state of many ToC services.
I agree, ticket gates are an absolute nuisance and inconvenience honest fare paying passengers just to stop the tiny, tiny minority who fare dodge. Many's the time I've had 20-30 minutes to change trains and thought about nipping out for a drink or to check out the concourse shops then had second thoughts when I've seen the station has ticket gates. It's simply not worth risking missing your connection because on the way back in either your ticket doesn't work, you're stuck behind a dopey passenger or there's no staff around to let you through.
This latest waste of money is just another example of the rail industry treating all its customers as criminals until they prove otherwise.
Probably just rostering patterns. Paddington will have staff to 0100 on a weekday with barely anyone about, but often nobody there til around midday on a Sunday.
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I’ve seen multiple people fight with a CCST on a scanner trying every which way to do it and to top it off the gate was open and they were looking for staff…
Probably just rostering patterns. Paddington will have staff to 0100 on a weekday with barely anyone about, but often nobody there til around midday on a Sunday.
I’ve seen multiple people fight with a CCST on a scanner trying every which way to do it and to top it off the gate was open and they were looking for staff…
I was debating with under and over estimate, but I chose "underestimate [their stupidity]"! Unfortunately I've witnessed my own family and friends do similar things.
A structure akin to a modern waiting shelter is a perfectly reasonable installation to house barriers and there are numerous instances of these being built at stations which do not have more substantial buildings.
The DfT has done it's due diligence with this though. Stafford and Lime St I see huge numbers of ticket less travel. Gates lines there will pay for themselves very quickly.
Therefore it really isn't a waste of money. People complain about the subsidy paid to run the railway, yet when it looks to protect itself and limit the loss from free riders, people still complain.
The DfT has done it's due diligence with this though. Stafford and Lime St I see huge numbers of ticket less travel. Gates lines there will pay for themselves very quickly.
I've always found it odd that P1-5 have one (and always have had in some form, though it was manual inspections in the 1990s and before) but in recent years the other side has just been open. I suppose it parallels with Euston, where 8-11 were always gated but the others not, though manual inspections are done on boarding of most trains now and 1-3 did have gates fitted about 5-10 years ago now.
The DfT has done it's due diligence with this though. Stafford and Lime St I see huge numbers of ticket less travel. Gates lines there will pay for themselves very quickly.
Therefore it really isn't a waste of money. People complain about the subsidy paid to run the railway, yet when it looks to protect itself and limit the loss from free riders, people still complain.
Stone. Thankfully onboard ticket check frequencies are relatively high on both of those routes, and having a Revenue team based at Crewe, they will no doubt 'support' these routes after barriers are installed.
They had been a lot of work done to get those that travel from Rugeley and Penkridge to have tickets, with season passes in the under 21 age bracket being the norm. Hopefully this will continue rather than a shift to just getting through the barriers.
I've always found it odd that P1-5 have one (and always have had in some form, though it was manual inspections in the 1990s and before) but in recent years the other side has just been open. I suppose it parallels with Euston, where 8-11 were always gated but the others not, though manual inspections are done on boarding of most trains now and 1-3 did have gates fitted about 5-10 years ago now.
When Lime St was redesigned in the 80s, what is now platforms 1-5 (then 1-6) was segregated off into a paid area and branded as the "Merseyrail City Line" as all services routed there were local.
This 'local' vs 'intercity' distinction has been lost since various changes, including the transfer of core TPE services to the Chat Moss, as well as the redevelopment and platform changes within the last decade
Ticketing in the Netherlands is set up such that it's rare for the barriers not to let you through provided you have a valid payment method. Barriers in the UK often struggle to cope with the complexities of the British ticketing system, so the gates need staffing to let many passengers with perfectly valid tickets in and out.
Exactly this and why I'm strongly against any more ticket barriers at stations until they programme them to accept ALL valid tickets. Rangers, rovers rarely work. Railcard discounted tickets far too often reject valid tickets. Often can't even change platforms at a busy station like London Liverpool Street without issues. There's far too much they need to fix first before installing more barriers. Including those awful and oversized QR tickets!
I really detest those full sized ones, we need rail stations to be welcoming environments, not hostile, oppressive and inaccessible to people!
Also think this making stations more hostile is similar to many supermarkets self-checkouts who now insist we scan receipts to leave, even though a member of staff just verified I'm old enough to buy that beer! We can't reduce crime or anti-social behaviour if we punish everyone and make the built environment worse.
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I agree, ticket gates are an absolute nuisance and inconvenience honest fare paying passengers just to stop the tiny, tiny minority who fare dodge. Many's the time I've had 20-30 minutes to change trains and thought about nipping out for a drink or to check out the concourse shops then had second thoughts when I've seen the station has ticket gates. It's simply not worth risking missing your connection because on the way back in either your ticket doesn't work, you're stuck behind a dopey passenger or there's no staff around to let you through.
This latest waste of money is just another example of the rail industry treating all its customers as criminals until they prove otherwise.
My thoughts exactly. I feel more at ease at a station like Sheffield or York or Preston, where it's all open and it's nice to have a wander round between trains. Was really disappointed when I found out Wigan North Western got barriers, the town centre is right there and installing them poxy things ruined it!
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Will be interesting to see how Witham copes with ticket barriers as it's basically a station built on a footbridge. I don't see any obvious ways enough gates could be squashed into the available space to cope with the levels of passengers leaving evening trains that have left London. There's no doubt in my mind that barriers would be a benefit as it has none currently but I'd question the viability without a reasonable amount of enabling work.
I thought this with the other Greater Anglia stations to be honest. Manningtree and Rayleigh, I guess they would install them next to the ticket office but they are not big areas, would surely lead to a loss of seating and access to facilities. Overcrowding could be an issue at peak times.
Hertford East and Ware are only up the road from me and somehow I don't think either station would be suitable for barriers. Hertford East has 2 platforms but most of the time only uses 1, installing 2 sets of barriers would be a real waste. Ware is a small single platform station, closing the side entrance would mean everyone having to walk a longer way round and to top it off, these stations are barely staffed. The station building is rarely open after the early afternoon. I can't see them doing what TFL does and paying people to stand around doing nothing at 9pm or any time on Sunday for only a half hourly service! Even Hertford North opens up not long after the evening rush hour.
All 5 stations are quite historic too and I would've thought ticket barriers would only get in the way and make using trains that bit worse. Seems pointlessly expensive for what could be achieved if they just staffed as many services as possible instead. Just seems they'll put them in and then not bother to staff the stations any better than now. Pointless.
Depending on the location of the station (location within urban area, rather than any particular town or city) barriers are sometimes what keeps the “inside” reasonably salubrious, civilised and non-hostile.
Depending on the location of the station (location within urban area, rather than any particular town or city) barriers are sometimes what keeps the “inside” reasonably salubrious, civilised and non-hostile.
Agreed - in particular they are one reason for the Tube being a very safe environment. The DLR, which doesn't have them, feels like the Wild West when it passes through rough areas, and antisocial behaviour on board trains in cities in rough areas of Germany (where there are no gates at all) is absolutely rife.
I now forget where I read it, but earlier on I read another article that wasn't his that confirms that the gates are designed to "nudge" you into scanning/tapping even when open, by beeping at you if you fail to do so.
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Absolutely, but it is potentially dangerous if it is not possible for someone (by which I mean "the smallest child likely to be out on their own") to do so. There is a reason that fire exits are required to have panic bars or similar and not just a key on the other side of the room.
This is just a ploy to reduce staffing, and one that does so by putting passengers at risk in the event of fire or crush. Yes, the fire alarm might release them or yes image analysis might look for a crush, but those are active technologies, and thus they have the potential to fail wrong-side. And fires, floods and the likes have a nasty habit of playing havoc with electrical systems and causing them to do strange things.
Big red break glass in emergency buttons at either end of every gateline linked to the fire alarm which automatically release all gatelines in the station would function similarly to fire push bars which are often alarmed as well.
Though hopefully either staff, automatic heat/smoke sensors or video monitoring woul trigger the alarm and gate release before passengers would be required to use it.
Big red break glass in emergency buttons at either end of every gateline linked to the fire alarm which automatically release all gatelines in the station would function similarly to fire push bars which are often alarmed as well. That's active, not passive. Active is not considered good...
Hertford East and Ware are only up the road from me and somehow I don't think either station would be suitable for barriers. Hertford East has 2 platforms but most of the time only uses 1, installing 2 sets of barriers would be a real waste. Ware is a small single platform station, closing the side entrance would mean everyone having to walk a longer way round and to top it off, these stations are barely staffed. The station building is rarely open after the early afternoon. I can't see them doing what TFL does and paying people to stand around doing nothing at 9pm or any time on Sunday for only a half hourly service! Even Hertford North opens up not long after the evening rush hour.
If both Shrub Hill and Foregate Street are gated, this would probably be even easier to pick up than Parkway (given the ticket wouldn’t be scanned in-see Vauxhall to Waterloo). Most stations from Oxford to Worcester have a TVM (and the ones that don’t only get a few trains per day) and Charlbury, Kingham, Moreton-in-Marsh, Evesham and Worcestershire Parkway have ticket offices. Adding a cash payments facility to the TVMs would mostly close the “I couldn’t pay” loophole (where currently card only TVMs and limited hours/no booking office)…
Adding a cash payments facility to the TVMs would mostly close the “I couldn’t pay” loophole (where currently card only TVMs and limited hours/no booking office)…
I suspect the chance of card only TVMs being converted to support cash payments at some of the quieter stations which are only part timed staff is remote. The powers that be, will determine the loss of revenue from those who only have cash is a smaller cost than having cash TVMs.
Ticket barriers aren’t a silver bullet for fare evasion. People will just short fare and buy the cheapest applicable ticket that will work the barriers. I suspect that short faring is a much bigger problem (and cost in terms of revenue lost), and I’d be interested to know if there is a strategy for tackling that instead. It could probably be addressed without spending £33m too…
If you read the Disputes and Prosecutions forum you’ll know that TOCs are very aware of short ticketing and do have strategies for dealing with it, and in doing so are recovering multiple instances of evaded fares once someone is caught, not just the day in question.
I suspect the chance of card only TVMs being converted to support cash payments at some of the quieter stations which are only part timed staff is remote. The powers that be, will determine the loss of revenue from those who only have cash is a smaller cost than having cash TVMs.
That’s where the former LU model of ticket and assistance windows could work. Keep the staff behind glass in a secure room, and refer anyone with a ticket issue to the assistance window, where they can resolve their fare issue before getting out.
Completely the opposite of the whole concept of shop-floor-style staff.
Will be interesting to see how Witham copes with ticket barriers as it's basically a station built on a footbridge. I don't see any obvious ways enough gates could be squashed into the available space to cope with the levels of passengers leaving evening trains that have left London. There's no doubt in my mind that barriers would be a benefit as it has none currently but I'd question the viability without a reasonable amount of enabling work.
There were plans to build new entrance building and ticket office on the car park, allowing the current ticket office on the footbridge entrance to be removed and make space for a gate line. I can't see how there's space unless they do that.
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