Class 810 - The Right Fit For EMR?

[Trainman40083]

In a different thread, I showed how it would be possible to run the current timetable without having services share platforms, though it does require changing the diagrams. Currently platform sharing happens because it is possible and easier, but it is not essential, especially if all services are the same length (e.g., a full 9-car fleet).

However, I do think it is important to note that the 810s are a significant capacity upgrade for EMR.

I noticed the difference when I caught them. I'm sure it will be fine when the units are fixed properly, and the potential to run 10 coach trains

 

[London Trains]

Do that and you've got to accept a lower frequency service as they're unable to double up at St Pancras. Lower frequency would mean less trains required anyway.

This is not true - providing Sheffield and Nottingham services interwork, there is nothing stopping the current service pattern from operating from 3 platforms with fixed formation 9-coach trains.

 

[Teapot42]

This is not true - providing Sheffield and Nottingham services interwork, there is nothing stopping the current service pattern from operating from 3 platforms with fixed formation 9-coach trains.

Is there a diagram anywhere of how they do interwork?

Coming back from London a few weeks back I was surprised that the unit for the 15:31 departure to Sheffield actually sits in the platform at St Pancras for 55 minutes. That doesn't seem an effective use of limited platform space, although I guess it does give a chance for a thorough clean and to ensure the last train before peak restrictions start to kick is is likely to be on time.

Having Nottingham and Sheffield services sharing a platform seems to be one of the causes of delays actually, as they need to wait for both trains to empty before they can start re-loading for the next trip. Otherwise you get a melee of people trying to get off one and on the other.

 

[liamf656]

Is there a diagram anywhere of how they do interwork?

A lot of them run Notts to London then form a Sheffield and vice versa. If you search 222 or 810 on RTT+ you can see where the units go and how they interwork

Coming back from London a few weeks back I was surprised that the unit for the 15:31 departure to Sheffield actually sits in the platform at St Pancras for 55 minutes. That doesn't seem an effective use of limited platform space, although I guess it does give a chance for a thorough clean and to ensure the last train before peak restrictions start to kick is is likely to be on time.

It's useful for when delays happen as it ensures a right time departure from London. The reason there are some unusual dwells is because the diagrams have remained largely unchanged from 2022, when we had a mix of 5/7 car 222s and 180s that needed to work specific services. I believe the diagrams will be heavily rejigged so that they can be used more efficiently, sometime in 2027

Do that and you've got to accept a lower frequency service as they're unable to double up at St Pancras. Lower frequency would mean less trains required anyway.

Not strictly true. If you used the fleet to their best potential you will have

360s
Arrive XX:52 depart XX:15
Arrive XX:22 depart XX:45

Nottinghams
Arrive XX:54 depart XX:35
Arrive XX:24 depart XX:05

Sheffields
Arrive XX:38 depart XX:02
Arrive XX:08 depart XX:32

This is achievable using all 4 platforms giving the 810s a chance to run in longer formations. Unsure about reliability, especially during disruption where it would be useful to stack trains on the platforms, but it is possible

 

[InTheEastMids]

At weekends and after the peak restrictions are lifted they seem regularly rammed

If I was "World King", I'd be asking EMR if they've got the capacity/cheap fare balance right on Saturday mornings, or if there's enough flexibility for football/rugby/cricket fixtures

Unsure about reliability, especially during disruption where it would be useful to stack trains on the platforms, but it is possible

Lots of helpful insider knowledge here. Thank you for sharing. A bit more flexibility comes from IC units vacating a platform at St Pancras, stabling at Kentish Town P4 and then head back into STP to work a Northbound. Although this again feels like a hangover from when EMR had umpteen different variations of IC stock

 

[Teapot42]

If I was "World King", I'd be asking EMR if they've got the capacity/cheap fare balance right on Saturday mornings, or if there's enough flexibility for football/rugby/cricket fixtures

Not that I'd like this changing, but the absence of peak restrictions on a Saturday is a driver for using earlier trains.

For two of us with a railcard it's under £70 each for a return from Chesterfield to London. Not massively more than advances seem to cost, but with the flexibility of choosing whichever train you want back. Especially as hotel prices have skyrocketed (it's not uncommon for £200 to be a baseline price for anything fairly central and decent these days) it's becoming more viable to just take day trips. I'd almost argue it might be worth considering if the weekday peaks could be relaxed to encourage similar.

 

[Teapot42]

In a different thread, I showed how it would be possible to run the current timetable without having services share platforms, though it does require changing the diagrams. Currently platform sharing happens because it is possible and easier, but it is not essential, especially if all services are the same length (e.g., a full 9-car fleet).

However, I do think it is important to note that the 810s are a significant capacity upgrade for EMR.

This is one reason why I was wondering if lengthening were possible. They might be an upgrade now, but the line seems to have a lot of potential to grow traffic significantly so having a longer fixed length seems better than being able to extend the odd service to 10 cars. It has been suggested that ordering more 810s is unlikely so permanently doubling sets seems off the cards as well.

One thing I was wondering (when I started the initial thread) is whether there is scope to 'take over' a pair of Eurostar platforms at St Pancras. For the very limited number of departures they don't seem well utilised, and it feels like the space would be better allocated where there is an obvious need. Of course there are plans to add extra services through the tunnel, but such trains usually seem to have a long turn-around. Maybe having facilities away from St Pancras for cleaning the trains between turns would be an option if they do end up needing more space than currently?

 

[mike57]

Slightly off-topic, but I have often wondered if the MML platforms could be extended over Midland Road to give two more platforms. Road level is already lower, as Pancras Road already goes under the platforms. Cost and other difficulties, I have no idea, but two more platforms could allow longer services on some routes

 

[Zomboid]

One thing I was wondering (when I started the initial thread) is whether there is scope to 'take over' a pair of Eurostar platforms at St Pancras.

Anything is possible with enough money, but that would be a major undertaking and would be to the detriment of the international services. Probably no less realistic to extend the platform deck out over Pancras Road/ Midland Road and get an extra platform on that side.

 

[swt_passenger]

Slightly off-topic, but I have often wondered if the MML platforms could be extended over Midland Road to give two more platforms. Road level is already lower, as Pancras Road already goes under the platforms. Cost and other difficulties, I have no idea, but two more platforms could allow longer services on some routes

It’s come up before. But I think if you matched the existing design of the roof as well as the platforms it would put everything just a bit too close to existing housing.

Maybe the easiest way of allowing for four long distance platforms is to transfer the Corby EMU service to Thameslink. That then opens a whole other debate about whether Corby is too far from London for Thameslink.

 

[Trainbike46]

In a different thread, I showed how it would be possible to run the current timetable without having services share platforms, though it does require changing the diagrams. Currently platform sharing happens because it is possible and easier, but it is not essential, especially if all services are the same length (e.g., a full 9-car fleet).

However, I do think it is important to note that the 810s are a significant capacity upgrade for EMR.

For anyone who was wondering, I went and found the post I was referring to, it is below. Note that I did this in February based on the timetable as it was then, which may (or may not) differ from the timetable today.

It very much is possible to run the existing pattern (6 tph EMR services) at full length using the existing 4 platforms. The entire connect service runs from platform 1 in the current timetable, so leaving that as-is, that gives 3 platforms for 4 tph.

IC services arrive at (current timetable)
.08 Sheffield
.27 Nottingham
.38 Sheffield
.57 Nottingham

IC services depart at (current timetable)
.03 Sheffield
.06 Nottingham
.32 Sheffield
.35 Nottingham

My proposal:
The .08 arrival forms the .35 departure
The .38 arrival forms the .06 departure
The .27 arrival forms the .03 departure
The .57 arrival forms the .32 departure

The .08 arrives in the platform the .03 departed from
The .38 arrives in the platform the .32 departed from
The .27 arrives in the platform the .06 departed from
The .57 arrives in the platform the .35 departed from

In this way, you get 4 tph cycling through three platforms.

Note how no service has to share platforms, all have sufficient turn-around time (25+ minutes), and this way every service can be full-length, without changing the timetable.

 

[Trainman40083]

This is one reason why I was wondering if lengthening were possible. They might be an upgrade now, but the line seems to have a lot of potential to grow traffic significantly so having a longer fixed length seems better than being able to extend the odd service to 10 cars. It has been suggested that ordering more 810s is unlikely so permanently doubling sets seems off the cards as well.

One thing I was wondering (when I started the initial thread) is whether there is scope to 'take over' a pair of Eurostar platforms at St Pancras. For the very limited number of departures they don't seem well utilised, and it feels like the space would be better allocated where there is an obvious need. Of course there are plans to add extra services through the tunnel, but such trains usually seem to have a long turn-around. Maybe having facilities away from St Pancras for cleaning the trains between turns would be an option if they do end up needing more space than currently?

Big increase in European train services out of St Pancras expected in the years ahead, starting with Virgin Trains.

 

[Teapot42]

For anyone who was wondering, I went and found the post I was referring to, it is below. Note that I did this in February based on the timetable as it was then, which may (or may not) differ from the timetable today.

One thing I note there is you have very short platform unoccupied times. Something I noticed last time we went to London is the potential for conflicting movements to block platform access, so it's not just when a train departs that is crucial, it's when it passes the point where the train coming in is free to enter the appropriate piece of track. Times as tight as those would seem to have the potential to compound delays.

 

[Teapot42]

Another idea could be to stack another level, as per Antwerp.

As it stands, it's not just the number of platforms that is an issue for EMR, it's distance from the station entrance / tube, and circulating area for passengers.

 

[Trainman40083]

Anything is possible with enough money, but that would be a major undertaking and would be to the detriment of the international services. Probably no less realistic to extend the platform deck out over Pancras Road/ Midland Road and get an extra platform on that side.

Some might say HS2 Eastern leg was the solution to capacity constraints at St Pancras.. But people say it isn't needed...So passenger numbers grow on Midland Mainline, on ECML, and on European trains. We are going to need a bigger railway. But for now, a pair of Class 810s will have to do...

 

[Trainman40083]

It’s come up before. But I think if you matched the existing design of the roof as well as the platforms it would put everything just a bit too close to existing housing.

Maybe the easiest way of allowing for four long distance platforms is to transfer the Corby EMU service to Thameslink. That then opens a whole other debate about whether Corby is too far from London for Thameslink.

Corby passengers putting up with Class 700s? They kicked up a.fuss when they lost their Inter City service and got Class 360 EMUs. Would have thought, Thameslink would need more units to take it on...Class 360s can only use the surface platforms as they are not bimode.

 

[Zomboid]

Some might say HS2 Eastern leg was the solution to capacity constraints at St Pancras.. But people say it isn't needed...So passenger numbers grow on Midland Mainline, on ECML, and on European trains. We are going to need a bigger railway. But for now, a pair of Class 810s will have to do...

It's in danger of heading off topic, but the Delta Junction to the Tamworth line connection that gets speculated about would do a lot of good for the MML. Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield become HS2 destinations and St Pancras only has to deal with the Nottingham route. For which a 4tph service of mostly 10 car 810s would be pretty well suited.

 

[Trainman40083]

It's in danger of heading off topic, but the Delta Junction to the Tamworth line connection that gets speculated about would do a lot of good for the MML. Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield become HS2 destinations and St Pancras only has to deal with the Nottingham route. For which a 4tph service of mostly 10 car 810s would be pretty well suited.

I'm sure some passengers on the Derby line would like to go to Leicester and Northamptonshire stations. . Some might even like to go from there, north .

 

[Zomboid]

I'm sure some passengers on the Derby line would like to go to Leicester and Northamptonshire stations. . Some might even like to go from there, north .

Yes, no doubt. But there are other ways to serve such flows than express trains to St Pancras.

 

[Cowley]

We’ve merged the separate thread about Aurora lengthening back into this one now as it was getting a bit confusing.

 

[MikeFromLFE]

It's in danger of heading off topic, but the Delta Junction to the Tamworth line connection that gets speculated about would do a lot of good for the MML. Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield become HS2 destinations and St Pancras only has to deal with the Nottingham route. For which a 4tph service of mostly 10 car 810s would be pretty well suited.

If you're going down that route then as a (possible temporary measure) tell passengers from Sheffield for London to use the LNER service and run the 222s as locals from Sheffield terminating at Leicester

 

[Teapot42]

If you're going down that route then as a (possible temporary measure) tell passengers from Sheffield for London to use the LNER service and run the 222s as locals from Sheffield terminating at Leicester

Which LNER service? If you are suggesting Sheffield passengers go to Doncaster then they'd need to add some capacity on the route. The existing trains get quite busy - and aren't that reliable anyway.

Maybe terminating the Sheffield services short at Derby and relying on other capacity to get Sheffield and Chesterfield passengers there might be another option, but again the spare capacity on that route isn't great.

I suspect the biggest problem here is not knowing how long this will go on. For a week or two it's probably easier to manage it they way they are, but if it's going to be months then a wider recast is probably warranted. They could, for example, run 10 cars once and hour to Nottingham and Sheffield, and with whatever is spare to Derby - if they can manage 10 cars once an hour then do that. You've got other services to feed from both Nottingham and Sheffield / Chesterfield in to Derby.