Class 350/2s to replace 323s on Northern

[David Bullock]

have you considered that as 350s are running Birmingham to Liverpool, these could have displaced Voyagers Brum to Manc? It's not a straight swap, but many people think that with a will it could have been do-able.

I think it would be politically much harder to convince people to lose direct services to destinations south of Birmingham.

Increased journey times and having to change trains at Birmingham new street would probably discourage people from taking the train

 

[AndrewE]

I think it would be politically much harder to convince people to lose direct services to destinations south of Birmingham.

Increased journey times and having to change trains at Birmingham new street would probably discourage people from taking the train

this has been discussed quite extensively in other threads, most recently the one on increasing XC capacity asap.

Just to say you could avoid making people change in New St by doing it at Woves or Cov, and if the XC followed the unit through the same platform it wouldn't be too bad... Plus people would welcome the additional capacity of an 8-car EMU after having had to put up with a single voyager - and you wouldn't have to artificially inflate the fares to price people off it any more.

 

[em81]

Worth remembering some Liverpool to Birmingham services are an Intercity and local hybrid. Manchester to Birmingham stopped being that when the hourly Manchester to Stoke stoppers were introduced.

While 8 carriages would be an improvement on 4 or 5, would the 8 or 9 carriage workings be replaced by 12 carriage ones? The 3+2 seating is one of the reasons West Midlands returnd the /2s. Plus, would there be any issues with needing 100mph paths, instead of 125mph paths? Even if we presume 8 and 12 car workings and refitting the trains with brand new seats, would that require all the units? Northern probably sounds a more sensible option.

 

[AndrewE]

Worth remembering some Liverpool to Birmingham services are an Intercity and local hybrid. Manchester to Birmingham stopped being that when the hourly Manchester to Stoke stoppers were introduced.

While 8 carriages would be an improvement on 4 or 5, would the 8 or 9 carriage workings be replaced by 12 carriage ones? The 3+2 seating is one of the reasons West Midlands returnd the /2s. Plus, would there be any issues with needing 100mph paths, instead of 125mph paths? Even if we presume 8 and 12 car workings and refitting the trains with brand new seats, would that require all the units? Northern probably sounds a more sensible option.

what current 8 or 9 car workings? I looked earlier today and saw a single 9 at about 9pm... I have just looked again and there were 2 9s to Bournemouth early on, then a single 8 to Bristol at around 1500. all the others are 5s with quite a few 4s from now on...
(Anyway, this is completely OT in this thread.) I'm looking forward to using the 350s in the S Manchester area.

 

[em81]

what current 8 or 9 car workings? I looked earlier today and saw a single 9 at about 9pm... I have just looked again and there were 2 9s to Bournemouth early on, then a single 8 to Bristol at around 1500. all the others are 5s with quite a few 4s from now on...
(Anyway, this is completely OT in this thread.) I'm looking forward to using the 350s in the S Manchester area.

Today at Piccadilly:
07:25 to Bournemouth (9)
08:59 from Birmingham (9)
09:25 to Bournemouth (9)
14:29 from Bournemouth (8)
15:03 to Bristol (8)
17:29 from Bournemouth (9)

Looks like there's fewer pairs on weekdays, than on Saturdays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While 8 carriages would be an improvement on 4 or 5, would the 8 or 9 carriage workings be replaced by 12 carriage ones? The 3+2 seating is one of the reasons West Midlands returnd the /2s.

It's not. There is one reason and one alone - new was cheaper. Originally some of the 730s were to have been 3+2 anyway.

 

[AndrewE]

Today at Piccadilly:
07:25 to Bournemouth (9)
08:59 from Birmingham (9)
09:25 to Bournemouth (9)
14:29 from Bournemouth (8)
15:03 to Bristol (8)
17:29 from Bournemouth (9)

Looks like there's fewer pairs on weekdays, than on Saturdays.

so as I said, 2 (departures) to Bournemouth and 1 later on out of something like 31 trains. Which is nowhere near good enough.

Any comment about the 4 planned 4-car trains? I guess you could try to justify it by pointing out that they almost all leave Manchester after 6pm, but I bet the 1803 to Brum and the 1825 to Bournemouth are cosy, and even the 2025 to Reading could be crush-loaded.

Anyway, this is the wrong thread for this discussion. 8-car EMUs would be better than these trains, but we are where we are, as they say.

 

[Kite159]

.

The idea of allocating a 4 carriage set to a route and keeping the rear carriage locked out-of-use for the entire day does seem to be a unique Northern idea

Reminds me of the days when Blackpool South services used to run towards Colne (and Ormskirk was a separate shuttle service), they needed to be 4 coaches between Preston & Blackpool South for the crowding but only 2 coaches fit at the vast majority of the local stations towards Colne so at Preston the rear unit would be locked out of use and carried to Colne.

 

[em81]

It's not. There is one reason and one alone - new was cheaper. Originally some of the 730s were to have been 3+2 anyway.

I was meaning why they sent the /2s back to Porterbrook and didn't return other subclasses. There's been LNR managers promoting the benefits of the refurbished 350s to passengers using the Liverpool route. One of them being 8 car formations being possible. The other being they've updated the interiors to provide more comfortable seating.

I've previously noticed the /4s have had the 2+1 seating in the former first class area, with the exact same seating that's in that area on the /1s. Not an improvement, but at least it's consistent between sets.

Any comment about the 4 planned 4-car trains? I guess you could try to justify it by pointing out that they almost all leave Manchester after 6pm, but I bet the 1803 to Brum and the 1825 to Bournemouth are cosy, and even the 2025 to Reading could be crush-loaded.

Right why are you asking me to justify something that doesn't need any justification, when you've have twice also said you want to move on as it's off topic?

At no point have I sad 4 or 5 carriage trains are adequate. The suggestion was if 350s replaced Voyagers. 350 carriages are shorter than Voyager carriages. They would need refitting if a refreshment trolley was provided, and if First Class seating was to be provided. Therefore, to not reduce capacity you would need 2 x 350s to replace a 4 or 5 car Voyager, or 3 x 350s to replace a 8, 9 or 10 car Voyager working.

The morning peak arrivals at Piccadilly around 09:00 (Northern, XC, Avanti and TfW) seem to work quite well overall. The stopper from Stoke is followed by an Avanti service that calls at Stoke and Macclesfield. So if you're boarding at one of those two it makes sense to wait for the longer Avanti train, that'll give you a lie in. The pair of XC Voyagers go via Crewe, calling at Wilmslow. That arrives after the stopper from Alderley Edge, and just ahead of the service from Cardiff (which has significantly less capacity).

It doesn't work so well in the evening peak though, with the 17:30 departure towards Cardiff being a single 197.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was meaning why they sent the /2s back to Porterbrook and didn't return other subclasses. There's been LNR managers promoting the benefits of the refurbished 350s to passengers using the Liverpool route. One of them being 8 car formations being possible. The other being they've updated the interiors to provide more comfortable seating.

Simply because the 350/2s were the only subclass leased from Porterbrook, and they wanted out of their expensive costs. The other 350 batches are leased from a different ROSCO, ie Angel Trains.

 

[mandub]

The award for the Train Service Agreement to Siemens Mobility raises the interesting question of where they will be based. The award states Siemens will be responsible for maintenance and certain cleaning. Ardwick depot comes to mind, but whether it can cope with a fleet of 37 350/2, or whether Siemens will take on the former International depot on the other side of the tracks at Longsight where CAF used it for a time and is now used for overnight stabling of 323's.

MID is a Northern depot now. Has mainly 331's and some 323's. They are prepped over night by Northern staff.
They do minor fixes too.
Staff there told me the 350's are going to Ardwick.

 

[sprinterguy]

Therefore, to not reduce capacity you would need 2 x 350s to replace a 4 or 5 car Voyager, or 3 x 350s to replace a 8, 9 or 10 car Voyager working.

It's entirely academic but I wouldn't see 12-car formations being necessary, as even a pair of low density, 2+2 seated 350s with a first class area would have equivalent (or slightly more) seating compared to an 8 car Voyager pairing, and there are often empty seats at the back of a double set formation leaving Birmingham unless there's been a previous cancellation or other network disruption.

 

[Mamorin]

MID is a Northern depot now. Has mainly 331's and some 323's. They are prepped over night by Northern staff.
They do minor fixes too.
Staff there told me the 350's are going to Ardwick.

Siemens are going to have to expand Ardwick then, as it only has 4 pit roads and only one of those is electrified.

That is not enough space to maintain some of 185 fleet and the entire 350/2 fleet.

 

[Class 466]

Siemens are going to have to expand Ardwick then, as it only has 4 pit roads and only one of those is electrified.

That is not enough space to maintain some of 185 fleet and the entire 350/2 fleet.

Well they aren’t going to send 37 350/2s in there every night when these trains are replacing 323s (which do not all go go Allerton at night). Just that they'll be allocated to Ardwick and cycle there for maintenance.

323213 failed today and required assistance back to the depot

 

[leotren1215]

Hi all,

I can confirm we will be replacing most 323s by the end of 2027 with newly refurbished 350/2 units

However it's not all bad as there are talks about keeping some on some smaller routes further up north, however the rest will either be scrapped or sent to a heritage railway. Still TBC.

Hope this helps

 

[liamf656]

Hi all,

I can confirm we will be replacing most 323s by the end of 2027 with newly refurbished 350/2 units

It's already been reported by modern railways for the past week that 350s are being sourced for Northern.

I have opened a new thread further discussing the 323s, here:

Possible future use of the 323s!? Your thoughts

However it's not all bad as there are talks about keeping some on some smaller routes further up north, however the rest will either be scrapped or sent to a heritage railway. Still TBC. Hope this helps Is there a source to back your claims, or is it just a platform end rumour? I think we all...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Gricer99]

So what will end up on Stalybridge -Wigan? 323s or 350/2s?

 

[Class 466]

So what will end up on Stalybridge -Wigan? 323s or 350/2s?

323s from May 2027 until its replaced by either 331s or 350s.

 

[em81]

It's entirely academic but I wouldn't see 12-car formations being necessary, as even a pair of low density, 2+2 seated 350s with a first class area would have equivalent (or slightly more) seating compared to an 8 car Voyager pairing, and there are often empty seats at the back of a double set formation leaving Birmingham unless there's been a previous cancellation or other network disruption.

When units are cascaded there's always the option of refitting them to suit the new routes, but it probably doesn't happen as often as it should. I think the original standard class 2+2 configuration in a class 350 is 206 seats, that could be reduced if you wanted more luggage space or to allow for on board refreshments, but that won't be needed for a Northern transfer. One option Northern could potentially consider with the /2s is refitting the standard class area to be 2+2 with a a bit more breathing space around the seats, and then using the surplus seats in the former first class area. If they did that I'd like to see them fit armrests too, but that's wishful thinking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When units are cascaded there's always the option of refitting them to suit the new routes, but it probably doesn't happen as often as it should. I think the original standard class 2+2 configuration in a class 350 is 206 seats, that could be reduced if you wanted more luggage space or to allow for on board refreshments, but that won't be needed for a Northern transfer. One option Northern could potentially consider with the /2s is refitting the standard class area to be 2+2 with a a bit more breathing space around the seats, and then using the surplus seats in the former first class area. If they did that I'd like to see them fit armrests too, but that's wishful thinking.

Removing the third seat to make it narrow 2+2 as per 700s, 730/0s etc would be very good for use on local services around Manchester as it improves access and allows standing. If you want to experience that on what is basically a 360 some of the Thai ones are like that!

Alternatively you could fit 2+2 with armrests and get something basically the same as a 331.

If most of the refurb cost will go on ASDO though there probably isn't money to be changing the seats.

 

[Kite159]

Removing the third seat to make it narrow 2+2 as per 700s, 730/0s etc would be very good for use on local services around Manchester as it improves access and allows standing. If you want to experience that on what is basically a 360 some of the Thai ones are like that!

Alternatively you could fit 2+2 with armrests and get something basically the same as a 331.

If most of the refurb cost will go on ASDO though there probably isn't money to be changing the seats.

Similar to what it was like on the long gone 360205? (the '3-1+2' style seating) with a wider aisle

 

[Bletchleyite]

Similar to what it was like on the long gone 360205? (the '3-1+2' style seating) with a wider aisle

Yes that. If that one was converted without replacing seats it must be fairly easy to do.

 

[Nym]

Yes that. If that one was converted without replacing seats it must be fairly easy to do.

Except I suspect that more grab rails would need to be added and the seat risers may well be in the wrong place.

 

[td97]

323s from May 2027 until its replaced by either 331s or 350s.

Where from? Northern barely have enough units available for service with the existing timetable.

 

[Class 466]

Where from? Northern barely have enough units available for service with the existing timetable.

The Crewe-Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly service being split between Northern & LNR means they should have the units spare

 

[deltic08]

If 37 350/2s are being transferred to Northern, that will save a new build of electric units saving the Treasury say £250 million? That £250 million should be spent on further electrification such as Windermere branch, Carnforth-Barrow, Wigan-Southport or Ardwick-New Mills where 350/2s can displace old diesel units.

 

[BurtonM]

If most of the refurb cost will go on ASDO though there probably isn't money to be changing the seats.

I hope the budget doesn't stretch to appliance white trade emulsion and cool white LEDs either...

 

[Class 466]

I hope the budget doesn't stretch to appliance white trade emulsion and cool white LEDs either...

Something that would apply if they got Northern or a Bee Network Spec refurb! Although surely a song and dance will be made about these being the first GBR refurbished trains rather than those two options.

 

[Starmill]

Yes that. If that one was converted without replacing seats it must be fairly easy to do.

I would expect to see some sort of hybrid between that and the London Midland layout. Whatever can be achieved with very minimal intervention from current basically.

 

[The Mercian]

If 37 350/2s are being transferred to Northern, that will save a new build of electric units saving the Treasury say £250 million? That £250 million should be spent on further electrification such as Windermere branch, Carnforth-Barrow, Wigan-Southport or Ardwick-New Mills where 350/2s can displace old diesel units.

I’d think Chester-Stockport via Knutsford would have a far higher BCR than any of those for electrification?