London Buses Discussion

[Silent]

Do ev buses affect the amount of time a London bus route is curtailed?

I cycle to work on Harrow Road. The bus 18 recently started using BD11’s. I’m not sure if it’s because I’m finishing work earlier now, i currently finish around 5-6pm, but noticeably 18 buses are curtailed to Stonebridge Park Station and I will see some crowded bus stops. But I think this is part to very recent road works.

The other day going to work around 9:30am I saw a lot of bus 18 curtailed or starting at Wembley Triangle.

I wonder if it’s because it has started to use BD11’s or it’s just because there seems to be a lot of event days recently in Wembley. The bus 92 also seems diverted to serve Stonebridge Park station the last few days.

 

[MotCO]

Do ev buses affect the amount of time a London bus route is curtailed?

I cycle to work on Harrow Road. The bus 18 recently started using BD11’s. I’m not sure if it’s because I’m finishing work earlier now, i currently finish around 5-6pm, but noticeably 18 buses are curtailed to Stonebridge Park Station and I will see some crowded bus stops. But I think this is part to very recent road works.

The other day going to work around 9:30am I saw a lot of bus 18 curtailed or starting at Wembley Triangle.

I wonder if it’s because it has started to use BD11’s or it’s just because there seems to be a lot of event days recently in Wembley. The bus 92 also seems diverted to serve Stonebridge Park station the last few days.

I would assume that all service buses have enough charge to last a day's service, the only exception being the overhead opportunity charge buses on routes 358 and 132, where they have to make sure they have enough charge to return to the charging point, especially if one end of the route has non-operating charges.

 

[Mark L]

I would assume that all service buses have enough charge to last a day's service, the only exception being the overhead opportunity charge buses on routes 358 and 132, where they have to make sure they have enough charge to return to the charging point, especially if one end of the route has non-operating charges.

The BYDs should easily be able to manage a full day on the 18 with a single charge. I suspect the curtailments are down to roadworks somewhere on the route. Schedules for some routes do, however, include vehicles returning to the garage during the day for charging purposes.

As for the 132 the opp charged BYD/ADL E400EVs have slightly smaller batteries than their purely plug in siblings. There is only one opp charge gantry (at Bexleyheath garage) and it doesn’t need to be used on every trip.

The ieTrams on route 358 have 90kWh batteries - far smaller than a plug in bus - so are reliant to a greater extent on the chargers at each end of the route being available.

 

[SteveHFC]

Broken again. An absolute joke.

Does no one on this thread have any knowledge of what on earth is going wrong with the bus stop in Pinner?

Have you actually contacted TfL to tell them there's a problem?

 

[Intro298]

Have you actually contacted TfL to tell them there's a problem?

Reporting using the TfL Streetcare website usually does the trick.

 

[Edvid]

Mayoral Decision on bus/tram fares for July and November 2026 issued last week.

MD3517 July 2026 fare changes

MD3517 July 2026 fare changes

www.london.gov.uk

The Mayor is committed to making London’s public transport network affordable for everyone, while continuing to invest in a safe and reliable network. In Mayoral Decision (MD) 3464, the Mayor approved a freeze on Transport for London (TfL) bus and tram fares until 5 July 2026, the seventh freeze under this Mayor. This decision sets out a proposal to extend that fares freeze until 1 November 2026 to continue to support Londoners on the lowest incomes with the cost of living, after which bus and tram fares would increase by 5.7 per cent overall, below the overall RPI-linked increase on other modes that took effect in March 2026.

From 1 November the single adult fare rises by 10p to £1.85, day cap (PAYG) by 30p to £5.55 and 1 Day Bus & Tram Pass by 40p to £6.40.

 

[Thirteen]

Mayoral Decision on bus/tram fares for July and November 2026 issued last week.

MD3517 July 2026 fare changes

MD3517 July 2026 fare changes

www.london.gov.uk

From 1 November the single adult fare rises by 10p to £1.85, day cap (PAYG) by 30p to £5.55 and 1 Day Bus & Tram Pass by 40p to £6.40.

I'm surprised it's only going up by 10p, surely it needs to be close to £1.95

 

[rmHawk765]

Pretty sure no-one here has really discussed the 456 bus route. It offers, simply put, an atrocious service. It is likely to it to just not show up, often because it's so late that one of the 2bph is just 'skipped' - Enfield Transport Users Group quoted a terrible 65% punctuality rate recently. ETUG also quotes a 'lack of drivers' - this route didn't enter service yesterday and existed partially for many years prior in the form of the W10! You can watch a bus arrive at North Middlesex, disappear from the map, and never come back to work the return leaving a gap in service. And the crappy Streetlite WFs there are used on this route also do not always cope with demand due to their small size; this route serves several stations and schools.

The nearby W9 route is on time just about 80% of the time and also uses better suited Enviro200s. Not to mention it has a much more suitable frequency of 4bph all-day Mon-Sat compared to the unreliable 2-3bph on the 456.

 

[aron2smith]

I'm surprised it's only going up by 10p, surely it needs to be close to £1.95

Assuming Burnham becomes PM soon and a big if, but if he restored the £2 bus fare cap across England (which curiously Scotland is now introducing, Wales opting for a distance based fare system instead as part of franchising), London should've just matched the English cap and then leave it at £2 till at least the end of this Parliament's term. I wouldn't be surprised if any fares increases in London increasingly rely on an increase to the caps instead though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2026 ==

Pretty sure no-one here has really discussed the 456 bus route. It offers, simply put, an atrocious service. It is likely to it to just not show up, often because it's so late that one of the 2bph is just 'skipped' - Enfield Transport Users Group quoted a terrible 65% punctuality rate recently. ETUG also quotes a 'lack of drivers' - this route didn't enter service yesterday and existed partially for many years prior in the form of the W10! You can watch a bus arrive at North Middlesex, disappear from the map, and never come back to work the return leaving a gap in service. And the crappy Streetlite WFs there are used on this route also do not always cope with demand due to their small size; this route serves several stations and schools.

Doesn't surprise me at all as Enfield and Edmonton are notorious for congestion. M25, A10 and A406 all do there bit when something goes wrong. Some of the places in Enfield served by the 456 would be seriously isolated without it, comparable to Rosedale Estate and Goff's Oak near me. And one of the other problems with the 456 is it ends early, around 8pm, again comparable to buses in much of Cheshunt. So both reliability and the timetable need massive improvements and expansion if the Crews Hill development goes ahead.

Noticed the 491 has been struggling lately too, really bad traffic around Waltham Cross meant it took half an hour to get to Enfield Island Village, where I was going. It's supposed to reach there in 12 minutes! I take that route and walk across the Gunpowder Park to catch the 215 at Lea Valley Campsite due to a lack of bus from Waltham Cross/ Abbey to Chingford.

 

[rmHawk765]

Doesn't surprise me at all as Enfield and Edmonton are notorious for congestion.

Also notorious for some of the worst rail services despite a lack of a Tube connection... it's not just buses. The local single deckers really need to be better integrated with rail here too.

 

[aron2smith]

Also notorious for some of the worst rail services despite a lack of a Tube connection... it's not just buses. The local single deckers really need to be better integrated with rail here too.

Yeah noticeable from how packed trains get at both Enfield Lock and Southbury. It's unfortunate how the Piccadilly Line got close to Enfield then snakes west instead.

Buses seem quite unequal in the borough, not helped by the neglected cross-boundary links either, which are only good if going to Potters Bar. So Hertford Road and the A10 appear very frequent but buses often turn around before Waltham Cross because of the traffic. Not sure what happened the other evening but I saw 4 217s appear within 8 to 10 minutes of each other last week at Enfield Retail Park, 3 terminated early! Got a 317 in the end! Dread to think the gap in service at times!

As for West Enfield, the contrast between the level of service provided by 121 and 307 compared to 377 and 456 is quite nuts really. Can't help but draw comparisons between the 310 on the main high road and the 242 and 251 serving West Cheshunt/ Hammond Street!

 

[rmHawk765]

Yeah noticeable from how packed trains get at both Enfield Lock and Southbury.

The Hertford Loop and Lea Valley lines both have many stations with over 1 million annual passengers, but both get subpar service. The Hertford Loop did see a pretty good service pre-COVID but it doesn't seem like this will be returning in full anytime soon. Anyways, I won't go into much detail as this isn't the right thread.

So Hertford Road and the A10 appear very frequent but buses often turn around before Waltham Cross because of the traffic.

The A10 buses are ridiculously unreliable. The 231, 217 and 317 are timetabled quite well but this timetable can be ignored most of the time. And to be honest this doesn't come as a surprise. The A406 buses are even worse.

 

[MotCO]

There are, according to Buses magazine, 400 electric buses in store for London operators, waiting for the electric infrastructure to be installed in the relevant garages. Some are also awaiting fitment of iBus kit. Who is picking up the charge for all this? Do the bus companies pay the lease on buses sitting idle in addition to the cost of keeping an ageing diesel fleet on the road? Do the electric companies pay any compensation for late installation? Does TfL pay the bus operator only the cost of the diesel buses actually operated, rather than the electric fee built into the contract? If there is such a backlog, should TfL allow bus operators to delay the purchase of electric buses until the electric installation dates can be confirmed?

 

[Snow1964]

There are, according to Buses magazine, 400 electric buses in store for London operators, waiting for the electric infrastructure to be installed in the relevant garages. Some are also awaiting fitment of iBus kit. Who is picking up the charge for all this? Do the bus companies pay the lease on buses sitting idle in addition to the cost of keeping an ageing diesel fleet on the road? Do the electric companies pay any compensation for late installation? Does TfL pay the bus operator only the cost of the diesel buses actually operated, rather than the electric fee built into the contract? If there is such a backlog, should TfL allow bus operators to delay the purchase of electric buses until the electric installation dates can be confirmed?

If the buses have turned up and are ready to use, but chargers aren't ready then it's Operators problem. They failed to coordinate bus and charger commissioning dates.

If buses are parked pending a contract start, then generally the lease will be set to start at same date (more general rule than always)

The I-bus fitment is more of a mystery, because back in about 2017 there were around 700-800 more buses in the London fleet, so in theory there are 700+ spare sets. If they are now short of equipment suggests TfL have a few hundred broken and unrepaired sets of equipment, or they have pointlessly put them early into buses which are going to stored for months.

Electric companies will not pay compensation unless there are delays beyond agreed installation date. For bulk (high power) installations need to book a connection, and if first installation date is 2-4 years away because needs new feeder cables or uprated substation then that is the date. The dates vary in different parts of London depending on if there is spare electricity capacity. What has tended to happen is Operators wait for contract (tender) awards, and only then commit so get unstuck if equipment isn't ready in 12 months.

In theory last year or so, has been more emphasis on getting charger installations planned 2 or 3 years before needed, but I am not sure if all Operators are actually doing this, and really affects route being converted to electric 2027-2029.

TfL does allow won tenders to convert later than contract start date when equipment is not ready

 

[MotCO]

If the buses have turned up and are ready to use, but chargers aren't ready then it's Operators problem. They failed to coordinate bus and charger commissioning dates.

If buses are parked pending a contract start, then generally the lease will be set to start at same date (more general rule than always)

The I-bus fitment is more of a mystery, because back in about 2017 there were around 700-800 more buses in the London fleet, so in theory there are 700+ spare sets. If they are now short of equipment suggests TfL have a few hundred broken and unrepaired sets of equipment, or they have pointlessly put them early into buses which are going to stored for months.

Electric companies will not pay compensation unless there are delays beyond agreed installation date. For bulk (high power) installations need to book a connection, and if first installation date is 2-4 years away because needs new feeder cables or uprated substation then that is the date. The dates vary in different parts of London depending on if there is spare electricity capacity. What has tended to happen is Operators wait for contract (tender) awards, and only then commit so get unstuck if equipment isn't ready in 12 months.

In theory last year or so, has been more emphasis on getting charger installations planned 2 or 3 years before needed, but I am not sure if all Operators are actually doing this, and really affects route being converted to electric 2027-2029.

TfL does allow won tenders to convert later than contract start date when equipment is not ready

Thanks. I more or less thought that that would be the case. So it's another cost the operators have to absorb, and another reason to add to the list of reasons why so many contracts are being retendered early.

 

[Mikey C]

The I-bus fitment is more of a mystery, because back in about 2017 there were around 700-800 more buses in the London fleet, so in theory there are 700+ spare sets. If they are now short of equipment suggests TfL have a few hundred broken and unrepaired sets of equipment, or they have pointlessly put them early into buses which are going to stored for months.

Recent buses have a new generation of iBus equipment, so presumably even though there might be loads of spare sets around, they are all first generation, and so not usable?

 

[Snow1964]

Recent buses have a new generation of iBus equipment, so presumably even though there might be loads of spare sets around, they are all first generation, and so not usable?

I am not sure I-bus 2 has started rolling out yet, although the contract was announced in March 2024, was going to be a 2 year development and testing period. Last I heard rollout was expected from Autumn 2026. But happy to be corrected.

 

[Mark L]

Recent buses have a new generation of iBus equipment, so presumably even though there might be loads of spare sets around, they are all first generation, and so not usable?

Recent deliveries have a newer display unit but this is all. The iBus kit that sits behind it is the same old equipment that will have been taken out of a withdrawn bus and reconditioned. With the passage of time the number of available units is diminishing. iBus 2 is at least a year away.

 

[MPW]

Route SL3 from Bromley to Thamesmead has been on diversion due to a burst water main on Bickley park road.SL3 Service Update

That means a significant detour via petts wood avoiding chislehurst station and war memorial.

The detour goes right past petts wood rail station (in fact all it would have to do is come to a stop to serve the station) but doesn't seem to be serving the station. It seems crazy to me that the bus wouldn't let passengers on/off as substitute for chislehurst station on the same line.

Is there some reason that's not possible?

 

[MotCO]

Route SL3 from Bromley to Thamesmead has been on diversion due to a burst water main on Bickley park road.SL3 Service Update

That means a significant detour via petts wood avoiding chislehurst station and war memorial.

The detour goes right past petts wood rail station (in fact all it would have to do is come to a stop to serve the station) but doesn't seem to be serving the station. It seems crazy to me that the bus wouldn't let passengers on/off as substitute for chislehurst station on the same line.

Is there some reason that's not possible?

That's some diversion! It also passes Orpington Station which be another useful stop.

 

[Mark L]

That's some diversion! It also passes Orpington Station which be another useful stop.

The Red Book says that buses on diversion must serve all stops. Clearly this would be absurd for Superloop services but, as far as I am aware, the guidance hasn’t been qualified. It would make sense for key interchange points on a diversion to be made temporary stops for such routes.

 

[londonbridge]

Mayoral Decision on bus/tram fares for July and November 2026 issued last week.

MD3517 July 2026 fare changes

MD3517 July 2026 fare changes

www.london.gov.uk

From 1 November the single adult fare rises by 10p to £1.85, day cap (PAYG) by 30p to £5.55 and 1 Day Bus & Tram Pass by 40p to £6.40.

Good job I can get my over 60’s Oyster next month then……

Meanwhile, at Hatton Cross this morning. 490 at its stop. 203 pulls in behind, at its stop. H26 pulls up behind the 203. 490 begins pulling away. H26 opens its doors. As people start moving towards the H26, 203 closes its doors and starts indicating. H26 immediately closes its doors.

203 pulls away. Everyone assumes the H26 will pull forward until it’s actually at the stop and open the doors again….nope, it pulls past the stop and goes to leave. I run after it and bang on the door where it’s still behind the 203 waiting to turn right into the exit lane. Driver opens the door, I get on and they start shouting at me that they’d had the doors open. I retort: “You had the doors open for literally four or five seconds and didn’t give anyone a chance to board”! Tap in and sit down leaving everyone else behind……

 

[LUYMun]

TFL is proposing to “restructure” the route 42 by curtailing the route at Tower Bridge Road instead of Liverpool Street while increasing the frequency to every 15-20 minutes. The 78 will have minor timing changes to soften the impact.

Bus route 42 restructure

Find out about TfL’s consultation on proposals to change bus route 42

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

Bus route 42 restructure​

Bus route 42 currently operates between East Dulwich Sainsbury's and Liverpool Street, with a bus every 15 minutes during Monday to Sunday daytime and every 20 minutes during the evenings.

It is proposed that route 42 would terminate south of Tower Bridge on Tooley Street, standing at Queen Elizabeth Street (south side). To complete journeys, passengers would need to change buses to route 78. Bus route 78 covers the same routeing as bus route 42 between Tower Bridge Road (Grange Road) and Liverpool Street.

Passengers would be able to change buses at the same bus stops on Tower Bridge Road.

To mitigate some of the impacts on passengers, especially during off-peak times, it is proposed on route 42 to:

• Increase frequency to a bus every 20 minutes instead of 30 minutes Monday to Sunday early mornings
  
  
• Increase frequency to a bus every 15 minutes instead of 20 minutes Monday to Sunday evenings

Frequency changes are not within the scope of consultation. They form part of our continual review of the bus network which helps ensure services operate more efficiently with the right level of service provided.

If route 42 stops and starts at Tooley Street as proposed, there would be a gap in service on Monday to Saturdays in the early morning. This would be for 40 minutes between 05:00 and 05:40 on the section from Liverpool Street to Tower Bridge Road.

To avoid this, it is proposed to introduce two additional early journeys to operate on route 78 on Monday to Saturday daytimes, scheduled to depart Shoreditch towards Nunhead at 05:00 and 05:20. The route 78 schedule covers all other times route 42 currently operates.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

Far north of the river are other cuts put forward by TFL. Firstly in South Tottenham will see route 67 being withdrawn with the 149 being diverted away from Edmonton Green to replace the withdrawn sections of the 67 to Wood Green.

https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/67-149-proposals (not quoted due to the length of post already made here)



Meanwhile in East London the 254 will be withdrawn and partly replaced at the Aldgate end with the 106.

https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/routes-106-253-254-restructure (again not quoted)

 

[ukiki323]

Pretty sure no-one here has really discussed the 456 bus route. It offers, simply put, an atrocious service. It is likely to it to just not show up, often because it's so late that one of the 2bph is just 'skipped' - Enfield Transport Users Group quoted a terrible 65% punctuality rate recently. ETUG also quotes a 'lack of drivers' - this route didn't enter service yesterday and existed partially for many years prior in the form of the W10! You can watch a bus arrive at North Middlesex, disappear from the map, and never come back to work the return leaving a gap in service. And the crappy Streetlite WFs there are used on this route also do not always cope with demand due to their small size; this route serves several stations and schools.

The nearby W9 route is on time just about 80% of the time and also uses better suited Enviro200s. Not to mention it has a much more suitable frequency of 4bph all-day Mon-Sat compared to the unreliable 2-3bph on the 456.

The 123 operation has been atrocious as well, from my understanding NP garage are having issues with their buses leading to cancellations. Also doesn't the 456 sometimes use longer buses? Its crazy how many routes are using vehicles smaller than what could physically fit

 

[rmHawk765]

Also doesn't the 456 sometimes use longer buses?

It now uses Enviro200s a fair bit, yes. The W9 uses them exclusively. Often old ones they've pulled out of god knows where but they're so much better than the Streetlite WFs. A few times a week there's also an Enviro200 EV running, though this has been going on for ages and the route still hasn't been converted to electric operation - I'm guessing a lack of facilities at the relevant garage? Or perhaps even range - I can't remember how long the 358 is, but with only 4-5 buses (compared to the 358) needed for the full service I'd imagine a charging station might be need at either end.

 

[dmncf]

TFL is proposing to “restructure” the route 42 by curtailing the route at Tower Bridge Road instead of Liverpool Street while increasing the frequency to every 15-20 minutes. The 78 will have minor timing changes to soften the impact.

TfL has chosen a rubbish location to terminate route 42! Shall we terminate the route in the City of London or terminate the route at London Bridge Station? Nope, let's terminate it short of either of those.

 

[Bedford OB]

The 123 operation has been atrocious as well, from my understanding NP garage are having issues with their buses leading to cancellations. Also doesn't the 456 sometimes use longer buses? Its crazy how many routes are using vehicles smaller than what could physically fit

The 123 has been a complete shambles since TfL gave it to Go-Ahead. A lot of the buses are a mess, much like so many others in their fleet, and the drivers are appalling, including taking wrong turnings, the first time I have known that in London for a very long time.

 

[rmHawk765]

including taking wrong turnings, the first time I have known that in London for a very long time.

I have seen a 456 take a wrong turn once... it was fairly recent and probably the 2nd time ever I've seen a London bus end up like this!

 

[Thirteen]

The Weekend Hopper starts today, will anyone be nuts and try and do the further distance on the one fare?

 

[DesDobramento]

Full marks to Stagecoach for allocating the two Selkent ‘showbuses’ (11011, 11066) to its first two runs on 208 today, newly ‘won back’ from Metrobus, whose final offering on the service was an EN (28) which has been supporting the previous allocation of E400 MMCs but which will surely now have run its last for Go-Ahead London?