Class 350/2s to replace 323s on Northern

[Class 466]

Posted elsewhere that these mods include fitting ASDO & mods to improve door cycle times.

 

[py_megapixel]

The replacement of PIS with TrainFX however, seems wasteful.

Northern seems to like updating the PIS very frequently. It has sometimes felt like every time I get on a Northern train (which to be fair I only do once or twice a month at the moment) they have changed the phrasing of the announcements or the layout of the displays or something.

I'm not personally convinced of the merits of this, as no other transport operator seems to do it the same way... but it does seem that they perceive the need for it, and so I could see why they would find it attractive to have only 2 systems to maintain and not 3.

 

[skyhigh]

333s needed TrainFX to operate Doncaster services, the 333s announcements used to work on magnetic tape which could not be re-recorded and used again.

This is nonsense. The original system had Doncaster announcements programmed in.

What it didn't have was announcements for Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge. The whole set of announcements were re-recorded around 2015 when the new stations were due to open but there were too many limitations on the system to add them, so the old recordings were left with just visual messages being added.

I don't know where this idea has come from that the units themselves used magnetic tape - the units had flash memory chips, the master recordings were held on magnetic tape.

The system was end-of-life and had very limited spares availability which is why it went.

 

[_toommm_]

Did 319s ever run that way?

Arriva's plans for rolling stock on Glossop Line as from April 2016

Today Arriva made known its rolling stock plan for the Glossop Line as from the start of its franchise in April 2016. The popular 323 electric units currently serving the line will remain until 2017...

friendsofglossopstation.weebly.com

There were plans to use them, but concerns were made around performance (or lack thereof). I don't think there were platform extensions at Flowery Field at the time, which barely fit a 323 on the platform towards Hadfield, never mind a 319.

 

[superkev]

Living over the hill from Manchester I cant help thinking that if WM could spare a few more for the west side the east side 333s (which seem to be getting on a bit) could be replaced with 331s.
K

 

[D365]

Living over the hill from Manchester I cant help thinking that if WM could spare a few more for the west side the east side 333s (which seem to be getting on a bit) could be replaced with 331s.

As alluded to in my previous post in this thread, the Class 333s will be replaced in Phase 2 of Northern’s new trains.

 

[Mamorin]

Living over the hill from Manchester I cant help thinking that if WM could spare a few more for the west side the east side 333s (which seem to be getting on a bit) could be replaced with 331s.
K

The 333s are also newer than the 323s, and I would guess the 333s are not as reliant on obsolete parts as the 323s are.

The 333s will make it to the day they are replaced by Northern's new fleet.

 

[amahy]

Living over the hill from Manchester I cant help thinking that if WM could spare a few more for the west side the east side 333s (which seem to be getting on a bit) could be replaced with 331s.
K

This whole idea of the 333s needing replacing is a complete mystery to me. Other than the 3+2 seating, they are Northern’s nicest trains in my opinion!

 

[Mamorin]

Posted elsewhere that these mods include fitting ASDO & mods to improve door cycle times.

Posted where?

I can't find any threads on here that mention what the mods are?

Though I'm sure the mods you have mentioned will happen.

As SDO or ASDO is needed for 8 car operation, and we all know the slow door opening and closing cycle times are too slow for Northern's timetables.

 

[brad465]

Posted elsewhere that these mods include fitting ASDO & mods to improve door cycle times.

Good to see, I imagine though that doesn't leave much else to do within the £25m.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the 3+3s at Liverpool dropped to 4s. Mainly because of platform capacity and signal sighting at Liverpool Lime Street though. The three car 331s uncertain given some will be moving to Shipley.

4/8-car 350s (1x or 2x4-car units) have been regular visitors at Lime St for years with LNR.
Also on WCML services through Manchester with TPE (limited stops at Northern stations of course), notably Manchester Airport and Oxford Road.

 

[Starmill]

4/8-car 350s (1x or 2x4-car units) have been regular visitors at Lime St for years with LNR.
Also on WCML services through Manchester with TPE (limited stops at Northern stations of course), notably Manchester Airport and Oxford Road.

Sure, if you can get the trains from Blackpool North or Manchester Airport into those platforms. You might struggle to get the Pendolinos in then though!

 

[Mollman]

This whole idea of the 333s needing replacing is a complete mystery to me. Other than the 3+2 seating, they are Northern’s nicest trains in my opinion!

The idea seems to seem from having fleet issues like the 332s had and the fact that one unit is often a Christmas tree to keep others going due to issues getting spares.

 

[Starmill]

we all know the slow door opening and closing cycle times are too slow for Northern's timetables.

To be fair that's just a random thing that a lot of people have picked up. It's not a fact. I don't mean by that that it's wrong, just that it's not proven by evidence available.

 

[Nym]

To be fair that's just a random thing that a lot of people have picked up. It's not a fact. I don't mean by that that it's wrong, just that it's not proven by evidence available.

Maybe the fact that Porterbrook / Northern Trains Ltd. are looking to pay money to change the timing characteristics of the doors?

 

[amahy]

The idea seems to seem from having fleet issues like the 332s had and the fact that one unit is often a Christmas tree to keep others going due to issues getting spares.

Even so, these issues are minuscule compared to the issues with most of Northern’s clapped out diesel fleet!

 

[Snow1964]

I'm not denying SDO is needed, simply that it will swallow up more than they think. Unless of course, they do SDO, not ASDO.

The replacement of PIS with TrainFX however, seems wasteful.

Fairly sure modifications were done to SWR 450s to give Selective door, and as 350s are basically same train should know how to do it and exact cost.

Siemens of course have a section called Siemens mobility that does train displays, but I have no idea of cost (or cost of TrainFX)

 

[tfw756rider]

Fairly sure modifications were done to SWR 450s to give Selective door, and as 350s are basically same train should know how to do it and exact cost.

Siemens of course have a section called Siemens mobility that does train displays, but I have no idea of cost (or cost of TrainFX)

Siemens Mobility is Siemens' entire transportation division, succeeding Siemens Transportation Systems in 2008.

They do indeed offer their own passenger information systems, but they can also partner with Televic or use other suppliers entirely.

 

[lowe1409]

Even so, these issues are minuscule compared to the issues with most of Northern’s clapped out diesel fleet!

Agreed. I reckon on top of refurbishment and SDO which is likely to be the top 2 priorities, theres likely to be not a lot more in the budget for retaining doors, especially not for the sake of a couple minutes which on some routes, northerns likely to be able to get back anyway

 

[Mamorin]

Fairly sure modifications were done to SWR 450s to give Selective door, and as 350s are basically same train should know how to do it and exact cost.

Siemens of course have a section called Siemens mobility that does train displays, but I have no idea of cost (or cost of TrainFX)

450s used to have SDO but SWT had that ripped out and replaced with ASDO.

The SWT ASDO training video was uploaded to Youtube 8 years ago, and here is a link to it.

Anyway the fact the 450s have ASDO means that Siemens Mobility knows to how retrofit it and what the cost will be.

Siemens Mobility is the transport division of Siemens.

 

[dodecahedron67]

There is also the TPE CASDO system used on the 185s and similarly the TPE 185 PIS screens which I would imagine would be easier to fit to the 350s than TrainFX potentially...

 

[Mamorin]

Edit: Ignore this, while a train has broken down it’s not a 323 as far as I can tell given how many lines are affected.

 

[Class 466]

Edit: Ignore this, while a train has broken down it’s not a 323 as far as I can tell given how many lines are affected.

323212 failed with 207 rescuing it.

 

[Mamorin]

Oh so it was a 323 that failed.

Thanks for that information, I deleted what I had posted as I thought I had it wrong.

Well this is just more proof that Northern has made the right choice of replacing the 323s with 350/2s.

There are I think maybe 4 323s currently parked up awaiting spare parts, and 323212 will make that 5 if it needs to wait for new parts.

 

[fgwrich]

There is also the TPE CASDO system used on the 185s and similarly the TPE 185 PIS screens which I would imagine would be easier to fit to the 350s than TrainFX potentially...

Indeed, and if they are to be maintained potentially at Ardwick, the staff there already have experience of Siemens rolling stock with the kit fitted.

 

[py_megapixel]

Well this is just more proof that Northern has made the right choice of replacing the 323s with 350/2s.

I do think it is the right choice, but one unit failure is hardly evidence that a class needs replacing...

 

[Mamorin]

Indeed, and if they are to be maintained potentially at Ardwick, the staff there already have experience of Siemens rolling stock with the kit fitted.

Ardwick only has one road which is electrified, if the 350/2 fleet is to be maintained there then more roads will need to be electrified.

I don't know if there is even enough space at Ardwick for the both the 350/2 fleet and the 185 fleet.

 

[py_megapixel]

Where were the Transpennine 350s based? (Granted, there were many less of them...)

 

[Mamorin]

I do think it is the right choice, but one unit failure is hardly evidence that a class needs replacing...

Its not that its one unit out of service, its that there could be a total of 5 units waiting for expensive spare parts.

Thats is if 323212 needs new parts that is.

The 4 that are out of service and apparently all of them need new transformers, and it took a year for 323243 to get a new transformer.

I tried to go out and catch some 323s for sight yesterday, but it was too hot so I gave up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2026 ==

Where were the Transpennine 350s based? (Granted, there were many less of them...)

Ardwick.

 

[BurtonM]

Hearing the word 'refresh' in relation to Northern rolling stock doesn't fill me with hope - surely they'll come out looking better than "refurbished" 15x?
It annoys me that the Sprinters are set to outlive the 323s - that shouldn't be the case.
The 350s are welcome, mind.