LNR dwell times using the 4+4 cl 350 on London - Northampton are noticeably better than Northern using 3+3 cl 323 on Manchester - Blackpool, despite the traffic being similar and the slight edge on door slide speed which the 323 has. I'd say this is noise. It's about the other elements of the method of work, such as one company mandating the conductor to step off the train and the other allowing them to use their judgment (as is the industry norm).
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Class 350/2s to replace 323s on Northern
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That is what Northern do when 331/1s are used on Stoke services, so that is what Northern will most likely do with the 350/2s.
I don't think anyone has ever claimed that there will be six cars on the Chat Moss stopper at all, much less on all of them.
On route like Blackpools as well as some of the south Manchester routes, the faster acceleration and higher top speed will probably offset the longer dwells. It's mainly slower, much denser lines such as hadfields which will suffer
It's not possible to do this during the daytime, as there isn't the margin with the CrossCountry behind it.
As it stands, most if not all of them do run as 6 car. It's a rarity to see 4 cars in the week on them now.
Indeed. However as noted above it would be rather challenging to accommodate 8 cars at Liverpool Lime Street in p1/2. So the most likely outcome is...
6 car 331s remaining in the northwest for Liverpool at least and maybe Blackpool. Let's not forget a 4 car 350 is shorter than a 4 car 331 a d therefore a lower capacity than even that
You've not understood the posts above
norbitonflyer
Established Member
They are getting quite long in the tooth now - the only other BR-era EMUs left are the Networkers on SER (about the same age as the 323s) and the slightly older mark 3 -derived 318s and 320s in Scotland, as well as the few surviving 319s.
How much comminality is there between the 350s and the diesel desiros (Class 185) operated by Transpennine in the same area?
Laurencemcd
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A 323 can hit 90mph in 100s on flat track, so I wonder how that compares with a 350. I’d imagine a 323’s better acceleration, but a 350’s higher top speed, would give both equal performance on Man Airport - Blackpool / Man - Crewe/Stoke. But, as you suggest, a 323’s performance is better suited for stop, start work. Either way, the lack of available spares takes priority here.
Bevan Price
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Rail Quest
Member
Perhaps a premature question but does anyone know if this has any impact on Northern's upcoming behemoth rolling stock order? I was initially under the impression that 323 replacements were originally (EDIT: going to be) included in that, so if they're going now, will some units be removed from the order?
Laurencemcd
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Indeed, people must’ve thought their acceleration was ridiculous in the early 90s. A 331 appears to be the modern standard.
RUK
Member
Presumably by the time they enter service, they’ll be in GBR livery - there was a mock-up for what a Desiro U.K. would look like in the GBR livery when the GBR livery was launched - so will this be the first full fleet that’s new to an operator to get the GBR livery?
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Can you get more hopeless a TOC than EMR though?
How on earth do you come to that conclusion?!?! There is absolutely no way anybody could even begin to justify such a ridiculous suggestion.
Not a bad idea!
As other have said, there are multiple booked 6 car diagrams on the Chat Moss at the moment. The line with its ridiculous 1tph simply wouldn’t cope without them, especially at weekends.
Even more so on match days.
Rail Quest
Member
If they're destined to operate entirely in the Manchester area, is it at all possible they'll get a Bee Network livery? Especially given our next prime minister and their promises on greater devolution.
I can't see that happening, as the 350/2s will be used on some routes that are not fully part of the Bee Network. For example Stoke, Crewe etc…
EYFanatic
Member
Excuse me if this has been explained, though I think it hasn't, apart from making sure they'll fit at stations and crew training, what refurbishment is actually needed to prevent them from entering service by the end of this year?
Also, as a speculation, would be an improvement to see them work Piccadilly to Crewe trains
Also, as a speculation, would be an improvement to see them work Piccadilly to Crewe trains
Doesn't stop Buxton or Southport becoming bee network lines. Plus Crewe operationally makes sense. Seems daft that alderly edge will be bee network and Crewe won't.
I imagine retrofitting SDO would be a big one as it would allow the replacement of 323s on the blackpools.
I think it's near enough guaranteed that they'll work the Crewe line. It's the line which instantly makes the most sense for them. It's possibly the only line which would be suitable for with zero infrastructure or timetable modifications with it's stop low density and higher line speeds. Plus the platforms at Crewe are more than sufficient
I didn't endorse it. But then I wouldn't endorse retiring 323s either. Especially not for 20m units in fixed four car format.
There is going to be heavy pressure to serve Golborne. Again if it were up to me this station wouldn't actually be being built. It's in no way a priority. However if you were to suggest that...
Fun times ahead no doubt.
You could say that about essentially anything. It's next to impossible to see how any fleet would ever work only Bee Network services.
Strathclyder
Established Member
Are there any 319s left in regular service since Northern binned their last ones off?
As for ScotRail and replacing the 318s/320s (and going way off-topic)...
If ScotRail had determined that there was a pressing need - and more importantly if it were financially worthwhile/feasible - to oust ex-BR Mk3-based EMUs from their fleet altogether and simply couldn't wait for a new-build order to do this, they would've sourced interim replacements a good few years ago now, but they clearly didn't think it was worth it, thus they didn't do so and now of course never will, as the 350/2s were the last viable option as far as used 25kv AC EMUs were concerned since the 379s were scooped up by GTR and the 365s binned off entirely - so a new-build replacement is going to be the order of the day.
On top of this, the fact the 320/4s have been going down to Wolverton for major overhauls - more than likely their last - alongside the 156s and 334s seems to me to be a pretty clear indicator that ScR won't be replacing their last Mk3-based holdouts until the early 2030s at the earliest, by which time the 318s will have become the longest-serving Mk3-based EMU (they'll surpass the 455s in that respect by the end of 2029) & the longest-serving heavy-rail EMU in Scottish railway history (the 303s hold that record currently at 42 years), on top of now being the second-oldest multiple unit class still in regular service on the network period (after the 150s).
As far as the existing ScR EMU fleet goes, the 318s will be 40 years old this September with the 320s not far behind at 36-37 years. Both classes are a combined fleet size of 55 - compared to 37 350/2s, so that would be a clear decrease in both the number of units and vehicles - and of a uniform 3 car length, so even if ScotRail had somehow got hold of the 350/2s, they likely would've needed to be reduced to 3 cars to be of any use on a good portion of the Strathclyde network without expensive platform extensions (horrifically expensive in the cases of the underground stations on the Argyle/North Clyde Lines in Glasgow City Centre).
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D365
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In terms of EMUs, it is only the Class 769s that are going to be replaced in the first Phase. Replacement of the Class 323 (and Class 333) fleets was planned for a second Phase, later down the line.
Snow1964
Established Member
That's really a more general question of which lines get which units, in theory could have 350s singly or in pairs, and 331s in 3 or 4 or 6 or 7 or 8 car formations, there is a trade off between keeping it simple to minimise types per line and optimising lengths across whole Northern EMU network by moving around whole fleet.
When Stoke bay was electrified, 4car class 304s were the stopping trains (77.3m long as were 63'5" cars). 319s squeezed in (just under 80m long), but a 350 is 81.6m long.
More generally if going to run double 350s, really need platforms and sidings that are 164m minimum, or more practically 170m to give bit of stopping variation, for comparison:
class 323 is 70.2m (6car 140.5m)
class 331 is 71.4m or 94.8m (6car 140.8m)
Of course if going to extend or alter platforms, then should probably be making them compatible with future fleet. So for info articulated units
class 755 & 756 flirt is 65m for 3car, 80.7m for 4car
If took out power car (6.7m) and added 5th car (15.7m) would be about 89.7m long
I will leave it to others who are familiar with network around Manchester to say what fits where.
childwallblues
Established Member
The problem is stations in the Merseyside area where stations such as Earlestown, St Helens Junction. Rainhill and Whiston have only one train per hour to/from Liverpool.
There are only two stations between Deansgate and Wigan NW and neither Eccles or Patricroft are massive generators of traffic like the station further west along the line.
amahy
Member
Indeed. Following a recent visit to Shipley, I saw many 6 car 331 workings, and all of them had plenty of spare seats, even at peak time. So is there really demand for 6 cars on these services? If not, it would make the most sense for all the 331/0s to be based on the west side, with either all the 331/1s, or some of the 350/2s transferring east to maintain Airedale/Wharfedale/Leeds to Doncaster as a uniform fleet of 4 car trains. This would also free up more 331/0s for routes in the west that require their use, such as Hadfield, Stoke, and Chat Moss in pairs.
As an alternative for Chat Moss, could the Victoria to Liverpool stopper become hourly all day, combining with the Airport to Liverpool to make a 2tph all stops service between Manchester and Liverpool? Both routes would be operated by either 331/1s or 350/2s, giving an uplift in capacity of 2 coaches per hour.