Class 350/2s to replace 323s on Northern

[Class 466]

This is going to make Northern’s west side fleet deployment very interesting.

I notice the releases are specific about “South Manchester” so a cascade of 331s to the Blackpools?

 

[Starmill]

Can platforms currently served by 6x323 fit 8x350?

A small handful yes.

I notice the releases are specific about “South Manchester” so a cascade of 331s to the Blackpools?

There will be a lot more moving parts to it than that I would imagine, as some will be needed for Shipley.

 

[507 001]

I notice the releases are specific about “South Manchester” so a cascade of 331s to the Blackpools?

Could be. My worry is that the 331/0s end up on the Hadfields leaving routes like the Chat Moss short formed…

 

[bigmanaiq]

It's being reported by Modern Railways.

The gen is accurate. It has been a fairly open secret in the industry that the DfT have been wanting to place the 350/2 with Northern and that is where they were heading. Northern declared their hand at industry timetable meetings quite a while ago.

The deal has taken ages to get through Government, not helped by the split of the DfT (some to DfTO) which is further affecting DfT decisions on rolling stock matters.

Thank you both

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2026 ==

Could be. My worry is that the 331/0s end up on the Hadfields leaving routes like the Chat Moss short formed…

Is it confirmed the 350s won’t be on Hadfields? I am aware of the previous failed test

 

[fgwrich]

I would think more along the lines of where non-standard four car 20m units can physically be used before worrying about things like that. Especially when it comes to stabling, platform occupancy and sharing rules, and depot space.

No doubt the rosco will be on the hook for some rather pricey signalling alterations. Some for where the trains physically won't fit, some for where the track and platforms need to be moved, and some for where the signal can be viewed adequately from a 323 cab but not a 350 one.

To be fair, the Desiro family already has some familiarity to the North West through the 23.7m length Class 185s and 350/4s also previously operated by TransPennine Express, though of course there are other routes where modifications will need to be made.

All in all a positive step for a fleet which shouldn’t have found itself dumped too early (Porterbrook themselves are to blame for that!) and given that they are still largely living under the juice at Long Marston, hopefully will be relatively easy to re-introduce into service.

On a side note I do wish some of the more fanciful ideas for them could have come to fruition though!

 

[Starmill]

Could be. My worry is that the 331/0s end up on the Hadfields leaving routes like the Chat Moss short formed…

I wouldn't be surprised to see the 3+3s at Liverpool dropped to 4s. Mainly because of platform capacity and signal sighting at Liverpool Lime Street though. The three car 331s uncertain given some will be moving to Shipley.

 

[Mamorin]

Will be interesting to see what Northern do regarding using the bay platform at Stoke.

Currently when 331/1s are used on Stoke stoppers Northern do not use the Bay platform.

I know a 319 could fit in the bay platform but it had to be driven right up to the buffers to fit.

Will also be interesting to see what happens at winter, as currently Northern operate 6 car on stoke services on Saturdays during Winter due to the xmas markets.

I'm guessing SDO will fitted to the 350/2s during the refurb, I think they only have unit de-select at the moment.

 

[Starmill]

Is it confirmed the 350s won’t be on Hadfields? I am aware of the previous failed test

No. But given they physically don't fit at Stoke-on-Trent we can infer that some meaningful infrastructure work is going to be needed.

 

[sad1e]

All being well they will be easier to re-activate than other fleets that have been left in open storage...

I wouldn't even say reactivation is even required with the 350/2s , at Rail Live this year I had a talk to people at Porterbrook who said that each unit had a timetable and was sent around the test track at least once a week to keep them servicable and in good nick.

They even said that they gave them exams as necessary after the trips around the track just to keep them as Ready as possible for possible deployment.

However once the 350/2s are deployed I doubt there's going to be many issues with their deployment due to their storage conditions unlike fleets such as the 379s which were kept in cold storage off the juice for quite a while and have had issues due to it.

 

[507 001]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the 3+3s at Liverpool dropped to 4s. Mainly because of platform capacity and signal sighting at Liverpool Lime Street though. The three car 331s uncertain given some will be moving to Shipley.

And therein lies the problem. The odd occasion that a 331/1 turns up on a Chat Moss stopper vice a pair of /0s they’re really overcrowded. The 1700 off Deansgate is booked for a pair of /0s and would never cope being dropped to 4. The 331 fleet should never have been ordered as it is, but that’s a subject for another thread.

There is of course another option… a second Chat Moss stopper could be introduced, even to Warrington Bank Quay as pre covid.

 

[43102EMR]

However once the 350/2s are deployed I doubt there's going to be many issues with their deployment due to their storage conditions unlike fleets such as the 379s which were kept in cold storage off the juice for quite a while and have had issues due to it.

The 379s were taken up to Belmont Yard to be energised regularly during their time in storage at Worksop and did often do runs whilst stored on the Greater Anglia network, the difference compared to the 350/2s was the longer period in storage and that a lot of that time was stored at Harwich which caused corrosion issues from the sea proximity.

 

[py_megapixel]

No. But given they physically don't fit at Stoke-on-Trent we can infer that some meaningful infrastructure work is going to be needed.

Or that the Stoke route will be entirely 331s, surely?

As above - we managed with the 319s.

 

[Starmill]

Or that the Stoke route will be entirely 331s, surely?

It depends on what else they are doing. They may not be in Manchester.

There is of course another option… a second Chat Moss stopper could be introduced, even to Warrington Bank Quay as pre covid.

If anything I would expect fewer services rather than more, as some may become Manchester - Wigan services.

 

[lowe1409]

Can platforms currently served by 6x323 fit 8x350?

Or I assume these 350s will be used on primarily 3 car services like Manchester - Hadfield/Crewe/Stoke to become 4 car.

There was issues on the Hadfield line so I assume these will be cascaded 331s maybe if the crewes and alderly edges become 350/2s

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2026 ==

Its also worth noting that northern are recieving 3 more 350s than 323s, what are the odds that this will mean a new service somewhere?

 

[Class 466]

There was issues on the Hadfield line so I assume these will be cascaded 331s maybe if the crewes and alderly edges become 350/2s

331 door cycles are also too slow for Hadfield - trains would lose 1-2 minutes on each journey which busts the current working with the single line section. One option is to recast along there with an introduction of “rounder” services on the triangle in opposite directions each half hour.

 

[ewanh723]

There was issues on the Hadfield line so I assume these will be cascaded 331s maybe if the crewes and alderly edges become 350/2s

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2026 ==

Its also worth noting that northern are recieving 3 more 350s than 323s, what are the odds that this will mean a new service somewhere?

I believe EMU operation between Wigan North Western and Stalybridge starts in May 2027 so probably for that I suspect

 

[lowe1409]

Assuming the Blackpool 323s are replaced with 350s, which platforms would be too short?

 

[Snow1964]

And it will be interesting to see if they get will reseated during the refurbishment or will they stay 3+2 with USB sockets added (and new seat covers & carpets etc)

Assuming the refurbs happen in 2027-28, they would be about 19 years old, close to age where mid life refits happen.

Of course could be like the East Midlands 360s, entered service in much same condition internally as transferred, and refurbs followed some time later. Although would think they would want units away for refurb before they lose last 323s and end up short of stock.

 

[Nym]

I think what they're probably trying to get at (without saying it) is that the bank has done a very clever lobbying job persuading the Department to force Northern lease them.


See above. The owners have connections in high places.

Nothing at all to do with Northern wanting rid of a maintenance liability?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Assuming the refurbs happen in 2027-28, they would be about 19 years old, close to age where mid life refits happen.

Of course could be like the East Midlands 360s, entered service in much same condition internally as transferred, and refurbs followed some time later. Although would think they would want units away for refurb before they lose last 323s and end up short of stock.

My bold.
We're still waiting for the first /only refurbished 360 to re-enter service, five years after the transfer and promise of fleet refurbishment, so don't get your hopes up!

 

[Iskra]

This is going to make Northern’s west side fleet deployment very interesting.

Is it possible that some 350’s end up in West Yorkshire to release 3-car 331’s which can then be used to maintain key 6-car formations on the West Side? Everybody wins that way…

 

[Merle Haggard]

Nothing at all to do with Northern wanting rid of a maintenance liability?

Some time ago, if I caught an early train, I travelled with the person who managed the Soho 323 fleet, and he was very proud of the fact that they achieved vey high - allegedly the highest on the network - availability and reliability performance indicators. Obviously before the current spares situation.
We will never be allowed to know - we're just the tax-payers that stump up the dosh - but it would be interesting to see how the Northern lease charges for 350/2s compare with the ones offered to WMT on a 'take it or leave it' basis. On then other hand, the leasees may be on the hook for infrastructure change costs at Northern, which would have been zero if they had stayed with WMT.

 

[lowe1409]

On then other hand, the leasees may be on the hook for infrastructure change costs at Northern, which would have been zero if they had stayed with WMT

Depends how much they wanna spend. Stoke managed fine with equal length 319s. Beside that it's only platform lengths which are then an issue. And even then, they come with UDS as standard so could make do with that on the cheap

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2026 ==

I wonder if when the new fleet comes out, the 350/2s will be retired or will they be used to strenghan services given theyve got much more life left than the 323s

 

[Starmill]

Its also worth noting that northern are recieving 3 more 350s than 323s, what are the odds that this will mean a new service somewhere?

Again, given that there is a need for more 331s in Yorkshire...

Stoke managed fine with equal length 319s.

It didn't. They only went to Stoke-on-Trent where the four car goes now.

Is it possible that some 350’s end up in West Yorkshire to release 3-car 331’s which can then be used to maintain key 6-car formations on the West Side? Everybody wins that way…

Definitely. But with 331s being displaced by 350s.

 

[brad465]

If slow doors is an issue, is it possible to replace/upgrade them to operate faster? If so maybe that's what some of the £25m is being spent on.

 

[Russel]

If slow doors is an issue, is it possible to replace/upgrade them to operate faster? If so maybe that's what some of the £25m is being spent on.

To be fair, they aren't that slow, certainly not slow enough to throw money at...

 

[Farigiraf]

Isn't rebuilding the platforms at Stoke to allow for longer, higher-capacity stopping trains to Manchester (the only commuter service to Congleton, mind) a good thing that should be done anyway?
Or is the goal to get the 350/2s in service with the bare minimum of work needed?

 

[Starmill]

If slow doors is an issue, is it possible to replace/upgrade them to operate faster? If so maybe that's what some of the £25m is being spent on.

It could be, but £25m sounds awfully conservative to me for that number of vehicles, especially when fitment of SDO and ETCS are probably top of the pecking order...

r is the goal to get the 350/2s in service with the bare minimum of work needed?

If the rosco are paying, you can near enough guarantee this is what is happening.

 

[Russel]

Isn't rebuilding the platforms at Stoke to allow for longer, higher-capacity stopping trains to Manchester (the only commuter service to Congleton, mind) a good thing that should be done anyway?
Or is the goal to get the 350/2s in service with the bare minimum of work needed?

There is a crossover and a pair of sidings south of Stoke On Trent station, looking at Google Maps, so is a potential solution to not use the bay platform, terminate in the main platform and use said crossover and siding?

 

[lowe1409]

Or is the goal to get the 350/2s in service with the bare minimum of work needed?

Given that it's up north, I'd assume the latter

Definitely. But with 331s being displaced by 350s.

I'd assume not. It doesn't address the issue of there not being enough 3 car 331s in the west to run 2tph 6 car to Blackpool and 1tph 6 car for Airport-Liverpool