TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
So is the misinformation and disinformation.
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TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains
- Thread starter Bob Price
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I, for one, am finding it refreshing to hear an alternative point of view as a counterbalance to the uncritically positive opinions elsewhere in the thread.
As a casual reader of this thread, the picture I get is that the number of 398s in service or on test every day is very small, and that they are out for only a short time each day. Some of you think that that is indicative of a successful introduction, others that it indicates problems behind the scenes. I don't know what the truth is, and depend upon others to provide the information that might help me decide.
If you believe that what VR 494 is posting here is misinformation, then tell us why you think it's misinformation, what is incorrect about it and what the actual facts are. Is there anything that VR 494 has said in the past that has turned out to be untrue?
In the absence of meaningful updates from TfW on one of its flagship projects, we're all just trying to find out what's going on.
Agreed.
As with most things, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. However certain claims being made border on the unbelievable. We all know that the rail unions, quite rightly, will vociferously call out anything that their members are being asked to do that isn't right, yet we hear nothing from either ASLEF or the RMT.
Chris125
Established Member
A slow, gradual introduction is just indicative of a new fleet entering service? Units are still completing fault free mileage, traincrew are still being trained up and maintenance staff are still gaining practical experience. IIRC we were told they needed the wires energised to Cardiff Bay so surely it's going well to even have this limited service running.
Life is too short to spend hours summarising the last 9+ months of this thread, but ask yourself this - if the allegations were so accurate why were we only reading them from a single source on this forum rather than local, national and specialist press and why did they enter service in a similar timescale to that mentioned at the beginning of the year.
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I rode the 398 into Cathy’s from the bay this morning. Asked about the bucket and showed them the post and a laugh was had. Aircon wasn’t working so well and is apparently variable across the units atm… personally would could that as teething trouble. I’ve had some good experiences of it and now one not so good.
Though in no way worse than a 150 of course.
Am getting tired of negativity generally. I get that there’s a human and media bias towards “travel is disrupted” over “work is being done to improve services”. I also get that “better than it is now” also includes a wide range of “would be even better if”, but at this point I can no longer tell if some of the negative posts are serious or just trolling.
Though in no way worse than a 150 of course.
Am getting tired of negativity generally. I get that there’s a human and media bias towards “travel is disrupted” over “work is being done to improve services”. I also get that “better than it is now” also includes a wide range of “would be even better if”, but at this point I can no longer tell if some of the negative posts are serious or just trolling.
Given the person in question is retired I've got to wonder if they themselves are getting trolled by their sources who like to see random stuff posted in the forum... Like others have said it's quite tiresome and never sourced.
Given the AC seems to work in at least part of the train from previous posts hopefully it's just a matter of tweaking, worst case knowing where to sit or stand in the extreme heatwave.
Clearly no one thinks the 398s have been an all out success they're years behind and still barely in service but given talk of their batteries not even getting them to the bay and back they've ran well so far.
Given the AC seems to work in at least part of the train from previous posts hopefully it's just a matter of tweaking, worst case knowing where to sit or stand in the extreme heatwave.
Clearly no one thinks the 398s have been an all out success they're years behind and still barely in service but given talk of their batteries not even getting them to the bay and back they've ran well so far.
On the other hand, if they're inaccurate then why is no-one pointing out the specific inaccuracies rather than attacking the person making them? Simply saying "that's rubbish" or criticising "negativity" is neither constructive nor informative.
As far as timescales are concerned... a Google search has returned a Facebook post from March 2023 in which TfW says:
"Exciting news! The first of our brand new Class 398 tram-trains was delivered to our new Taff’s Well control centre last night.
The tram-trains will now go into testing before being introduced on the Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr Tydfil and City lines in 2024."
So, the first units were delivered three years ago, yet there are currently only three out in service or on test, and only for a short period each day. Is that a success?
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chargesmith
Member
People have on multiple occasions. Eventually it just gets tiring to do so over and over.
I just find it interesting that lots of claims are made, yet they're never sourced - even where they are statements that ought to be easily provable if correct.
chargesmith
Member
Either this or they are trolling us. This is why I get frustrated when people believe them and engage with them, they will just keep coming back with more and more nonsense.
I've mostly ignored and muted them recently, other than directly responding to the most recent post because it was so ridiculous.
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024 is out again today.
023 and 025 are out on test, I think 025 hasn't been out on test recently but I could be wrong on this.
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TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Not one source has ever been provided for what are some really quite "out there" assertions, despite repeated requests. Then multiple accounts who have never made a post before have appeared saying "his doubters will eat their words." You're welcome to trust whatever posts you like but I, like others, would rather see verified posts and, if surprising and dramatic plans are mentioned, a reference as to where such information has come from.
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This.
Anyway -- are we any closer to multiple 398 diagrams on the circuit. The 150s are getting nastier and noisier by the day.
DelW
Established Member
- Joined
- 15 Jan 2015
- Messages
- 5,937
This saga bears some similarities to SWR's 701s, which also spent several years not being introduced as intended, followed by several "launches" which resulted in just one or two units appearing on a handful of services. But eventually they arrived in numbers, and while not entirely trouble-free, are now successfully providing the majority of SWR inner, and some outer, suburban services. So there is hope that the 398s' troubles will be overcome and that they'll turn into useful units with the early problems largely forgotten in time.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Of course we must remember freedom of speech is important.
So I prefer not to see bland rubbishing.
But I appreciate that for anyone "in the know" it can be very frustrating.
But I have not seen much proof of the negative things posted and some things posted are very unusual.
I think it is worth reminding ourselves that no new fleet introduction goes smoothly and that introduction is invariably painfully gradual. The
For my own thoughts. I think perhaps the morning to early afternoon only running could be to avoid showing up any deficiencies in the aircon. Or it could be that all running and training is confined to one shift. Got to learn to walk before running.
As for the suggested weakness of the batteries I think the fact that the 398s spend so much time at the non-electrified end (Queen Street to Bay) suggests the batteries can and are being relied upon.
As with any small fleet there will be teething problems. These get worked through in the earlier stages of implementation.
I think lack of information from TfW (and how over optimistic dates were) leads to other people filling the vacuum.
Having worked on new computer systems (non rail) I was sometimes stunned at some of the negative rhetoric spouted by people who clearly did not know and could not know. On the other hand I was once amazed at how stupid some managers were in specifying what they wanted - usually in these cases it is no interest in thinking through the detail.
Mind you software has a lot to blame for in new fleets !.
The
EDIT correction to class number - brain needs replacing.
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DelW
Established Member
- Joined
- 15 Jan 2015
- Messages
- 5,937
Point of order, m'lud ... 398s
How about this one?
There's been loads of drivel posted. The wrong type of OHLE. Nearly all the TAM lines are permanently earthed rather than live. Etc. etc.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Ha ha, my brain needs replacement !.Point of order, m'lud ... 398s
Worryingly I got the class number right once out of the three "attampts".
Corrected, thanks for awakening me to reality.
That one's been de-bunked,I believe.
nigelsporne
Member
A question was posed in the latest RCTS Railway Observer about the identity of the 398 unit that made it to the Bay on 2nd April. I had a quick look through the posts around this time and it appears it was two units, photo evidence, but no unit numbers were stated. Could somebody please point me to a post that gives their id?
I thought I read somewhere that the wires are now energised, again?, is this correct?
I thought I read somewhere that the wires are now energised, again?, is this correct?
Chris125
Established Member
They have, on many occasions!
It's too early to say if they are a success, but they're hardly a failure because the wires weren't ready (Cardiff Bay still isn't!) and the 756s were prioritised.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Although the electrification issues are not really a direct fault of the 398s they are all part of the TfW South Wales Metro project.
A rather ambitious project covering Cardiff etc with many facets (so there are many points at which things could go wrong). TfW have bitten plenty off to chew and they have not completely choked so to speak. Ambitious but maybe too ambitious - the results will make the struggle forgettable. The introduction of Flirts (class 231 and class 756) has gone quite smoothly for new fleets. Worst problem with the Flirts is if only there had been more money to buy more of them instead of cheaper trains. The 197s could be better but could have been worse, if they are disliked then needed to raise more money (good luck with that one). Then there are these 398s and electrification. A lot more dependencies there but having Flirts to borrow/cover was a good option to have.
I think TfW are getting to the last hurdles and by this time next year it is likely the doom mongers will have shut up. Almost all new fleet introductions are overly fraught (too complicated for my liking) and that is a UK (world ?) wide problem.
By comparison there is a lot less negativity about the 777s (Merseyside) now that they have been in full service for about a year. But there was a lot of negativity to start with. The introduction of 701s on SWR is progressing, not perfectly but not stalled (as it had been). Even the 810s (Midland Main Line) have embarrassed Hitachi but it looks like alterations are making progress - the 810s were too different from the other 80X classes.
There is always going to be negativity around change - people do not like change. In a work context this can be managed by getting buy in but that never works 100% and does not cover outsiders so much anyway. Even I do not like change unless of course it is my own idea !.
The 398s represent a cultural change for the railways of South Wales, perhaps not seen in such a large way as since replacement of steam. The 398s are a step change in the way public transport for the capital city of Wales and surrounding towns works.
I think one issue with the 398s is that their main benefit is something that is meant to come years down the line (again, so to speak) and that only a small fraction of which has been funded so far.
Cardiff bears the memory and scars of countless projects that stalled or completely after phase 1…
The modular nature of the planning here is designed so that each phase makes subsequent phases easier and cheaper, both to plan and to make the case for… but… without them, the potential criticisms of the fleet and of the short section of street running on a cost to benefit front become louder.
It’s already described (unfairly) as a vanity project.
I really hope that this goes well and remain optimistic for the future developments that it integrates with - extension to pierhead, new Atlantic wharf… new Lloyd George avenue as an actual place rather than a weird rotating cartoon background… eventual connection to the east, and to penarth… actual “turn up and go” metro in Cardiff also serving the wider metropolitan area.
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Just to add, some of my favourite examples of these uncompleted projects have to be Tiger Bay with the gloworks building standing alone in a brownfield wasteland… and the nearby flyover to nowhere on the queens gate roundabout…
Cardiff bears the memory and scars of countless projects that stalled or completely after phase 1…
The modular nature of the planning here is designed so that each phase makes subsequent phases easier and cheaper, both to plan and to make the case for… but… without them, the potential criticisms of the fleet and of the short section of street running on a cost to benefit front become louder.
It’s already described (unfairly) as a vanity project.
I really hope that this goes well and remain optimistic for the future developments that it integrates with - extension to pierhead, new Atlantic wharf… new Lloyd George avenue as an actual place rather than a weird rotating cartoon background… eventual connection to the east, and to penarth… actual “turn up and go” metro in Cardiff also serving the wider metropolitan area.
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Just to add, some of my favourite examples of these uncompleted projects have to be Tiger Bay with the gloworks building standing alone in a brownfield wasteland… and the nearby flyover to nowhere on the queens gate roundabout…
Perhaps, but so far it seems like everyone who’s ridden the 398’s seems pretty pleased with them, not just on this forum but also on Reddit and social media, and people I’ve spoke to in real life (haven’t had the opportunity to ride one them myself yet). If ultimately the tram-functionality of the tram-trains ends up being underused throughout their 30+ year lifespan they’ll still be very capable units for the type of lines they serve.
But I think the later phases of the Metro project in Cardiff will happen eventually, the government and the council seem pretty determined to make it work.
In the case of the railways, I think people love change. The problems arise when the promised changes don't materialise - and there is no doubt that TfW over-promised and has under-delivered on the Metro project.
But, as several people have said, once the project is complete and operating normally, passengers will forget the broken promises and years of inconvenience.
Yes, a lot of it, because stuff happens repeatedly that they have said will never happen. You can't be following closely if you haven't noticed this.
Even if half of what VR494 said is true, (and I have no way of disproving) where are the unions shouting about it, like they do with the smallest of issues.
It seems strange that nothing has been reported by unions, or the railway press or local press about all the alleged issues, which supposedly includes very serious issues like the lack of brakes at times!
chargesmith
Member
Have not ridden a 398 down to the Bay yet to see so myself, but something seems to be consistent with the videos I've seen and other people's comments, and that is that the Bay wires are not live yet. Some of the videos I've seen clearly show the pan down when stopped at Cardiff Bay.
If this is the case, by my understanding, the 398s are coming down from Pontypridd via Cathays, going back to Queen Street, back to the Bay and back to Pontypridd via Cathays on battery power alone until they get back to the OLE near the site of the planned Gabalfa station.
I estimate this to be around 8 miles in total of battery running. Once all the infrastructure is live the battery only requirements will be much smaller (4 miles or less), so if they are easily capable of double this distance (TFW would presumably want some margin left if they were running them in public service without the Bay wires being live) then they are not going to be having issues running out of charge if there's disruption.
Does anyone else's understanding or observations confirm this?
If this is the case, by my understanding, the 398s are coming down from Pontypridd via Cathays, going back to Queen Street, back to the Bay and back to Pontypridd via Cathays on battery power alone until they get back to the OLE near the site of the planned Gabalfa station.
I estimate this to be around 8 miles in total of battery running. Once all the infrastructure is live the battery only requirements will be much smaller (4 miles or less), so if they are easily capable of double this distance (TFW would presumably want some margin left if they were running them in public service without the Bay wires being live) then they are not going to be having issues running out of charge if there's disruption.
Does anyone else's understanding or observations confirm this?
I can't answer the questions that you ask, and I am sorry if someone has suggested this previously, however I think this might be part of the reason they're only running them to mid day currently?
chargesmith
Member
It's possible, but I doubt that's the reason, after all once they get back to the wires presumably they can recharge and go again indefinitely unless there's something I'm missing.
What they would definitely not be capable of doing currently if the wires aren't live is a Bay to Queen Street shuttle all day because there would be nowhere to recharge the units, so this is being done by a 150.
I wonder if it is to do with a combo of early caution with the 398s and a general shortage of units due to needing repairs (the Bay diagram usually needs 3 x 150s which would be better used on other routes if there are shortages, and having 1 398 and 1 150 frees up 2 150s to work elsewhere).
They can certainly recharge on the wired bits, but it's not necessarily the case that they spend enough time under the wires to replace the charge lost while on the unwired sections each time round. Especially as unlike in Caerphilly I think they can't charge in the bay platform at Pontypridd.
And I imagine in this hot weather the batteries aren't giving their best performance.
They have run the planned passenger service for nearly three weeks now with only a couple of failures. People using them on the whole seem to like them. I'd say the launch itself has been successful, which isn't to say that overall the programme hasn't clearly had its problems.
We don't generally consider things a failure if they worked out well in the end but took longer to start than planned.
I believe the line between Queen Street and Cardiff Bay is planned to go over to line of sight operation even though segregated, so even without the short extension to Cardiff Central they'll still be using the tram-train functionality.
Any in any case, as you say they are perfectly decent trains as they are.
Indeed while I do prefer the FLIRTs the 398s are better in quite a few ways.
I suppose without the need to act as trams we might have got something slightly wider and with loos though.
TfW have explained why they are running the Bay service just as a shuttle to Queen Street - it's "Due to a short-notice change to the timetable".