Future of the 350/2s

[Merle Haggard]

Obviously rate deal was done at is commercially sensitive, but was probably close to that. The whole purpose of interest rate swap deals is to lock in fixed rate at the time, the other party (usually a big multinational financial institution or bank) takes risk of rates going up or down, they might gain or lose, but will probably have part of it covered by other deals, loans in vs loans out etc.

Thanks, interesting.
Bearing in mind that, historically, interest rates have pretty much always been above 2% it seems an 'interesting' decision to think they'll remain so low for so long into the future. Even if the party taking on the risk has laid it off, then that party must have believed similarly.

 

[grinderx]

I had a talk with people from Porterbrook at rail live yesterday at it seems like the 350/2s are being kept in good condition whilst stored at long Marston at least.

Every unit has a schedule and is run around the test track at least once a week to keep them mechanically sound , they do exams to the units there when needed after running on the test track and there are two sidings where units can be stored pan up. 250 and 254 were pan up in the electrified sidings when I went.

It seems Porterbrook are hopeful someone will take these units as they are doing all they can to keep them servicable.

Quite a few people were commenting that the stored units looked in very good condition under the floor. The 769s also looked like they'd just come out of a refurb.

Couldn't help wonder if there was some kind of plan to convert the 350s given that they are younger than the 319 derived trains. Did notice a lot of patches on the 350s though, and surprised as I'd have thought aluminium needed less care.

I'm not convinced about the hydrogen concept. I didn't ride the unit but given that it needs batteries anyway, surely it is easier to just put more batteries on board?

There must have been several hundred carriages sat there. Brand new don't trains fetch around 2 million a carriage now. Quite depressing as a tax payer to see what can be done to keep trains in good condition only for us to keep getting new ones.

 

[Invincible]

Quite a few people were commenting that the stored units looked in very good condition under the floor. The 769s also looked like they'd just come out of a refurb.

Couldn't help wonder if there was some kind of plan to convert the 350s given that they are younger than the 319 derived trains. Did notice a lot of patches on the 350s though, and surprised as I'd have thought aluminium needed less care.

I'm not convinced about the hydrogen concept. I didn't ride the unit but given that it needs batteries anyway, surely it is easier to just put more batteries on board?

There must have been several hundred carriages sat there. Brand new don't trains fetch around 2 million a carriage now. Quite depressing as a tax payer to see what can be done to keep trains in good condition only for us to keep getting new ones.

SWR were looking at fitting batteries to Desiros, but the refurbishment of existing diesel multiple units means they can put off the decision for a while.

GWR have the class 230 battery test, but seems to be working towards new overhead and battery trains on long lower cost leases in the latest tenders, especially since running the refurbished 769s on the Reading to Gatwick line did not work well for several reasons.

The class 777 in Merseyside and Dart trains in Dublin have had problems with batteries, so can see use of the new test track being important long term.

 

[Harpo]

GWR have the class 230 battery test,

Is the 230 having a duvet day today?

The train that is used to run the service on the line between West Ealing and Greenford has developed a fault and has had to be removed for repairs.

Until this can be done, or until a new train can be sourced, service is suspended between these stations.

Incident: Greenford | National Rail

No trains between West Ealing and Greenford until approximately 13:00. Find details of all current incidents on National Rail Enquiries.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Russel]

SWR were looking at fitting batteries to Desiros, but the refurbishment of existing diesel multiple units means they can put off the decision for a while.

They can kick the can into the long grass you mean, new units will need to be ordered at some point in the next few years weather they like it or not and the longer they leave it, the more expensive it gets.

The usual short term thinking...

 

[brad465]

Unless Northern do take them as they are, I would not be surprised if Porterbrook tried to fit batteries to a 350/2 and then promote this, as this could make them more appealing and versatile. They have form for attempting conversions and now have a test track where they can put such an experiment to effective use. While it's not guaranteed to work, retro-fitting batteries is less complex than putting diesel engines and fuel tanks on an old train fleet that never operated this way before.

 

[D365]

Unless Northern do take them as they are, I would not be surprised if Porterbrook tried to fit batteries to a 350/2 and then promote this, as this could make them more appealing and versatile. They have form for attempting conversions and now have a test track where they can put such an experiment to effective use. While it's not guaranteed to work, retro-fitting batteries is less complex than putting diesel engines and fuel tanks on an old train fleet that never operated this way before.

Retrofit of any onboard power source is significant complexity. Whether it’s a diesel, battery or hybrid conversion is fundamentally irrelevant.

Keep in mind that, during 2018, Porterbrook had already proposed a ’BatteryFlex’ conversion of their 350/2s when they were first targeting Northern.

 

[Snow1964]

Retrofit of any onboard power source is significant complexity. Whether it’s a diesel, battery or hybrid conversion is fundamentally irrelevant.

Keep in mind that, during 2018, Porterbrook had already proposed a ’BatteryFlex’ conversion of their 350/2s when they were first targeting Northern.

Except the 350s have an advantage, (like 450s, whose first 3 were fitted out for dual voltage testing), they were designed as dual voltage compatible (even if dual voltage equipment was not fitted to every batch). They already have inverters to convert rectified ac into variable frequency ac for drive motors.

In very simple terms (and I realise it's more complicated in practice) just need batteries to clone the 750v (nominal) third rail. Of course there are off the shelf road vehicle battery packs that could be wired up to give say 800v which might be close enough.

Obviously there is a cost of battery packs and finding space and installing them, but in technical terms that isn't complicated. The technical complications come in adapting the coasting and regenerative braking into a battery charging system, and being able to blend the systems.

 

[Invincible]

But, now there is no franchise system. Porterbrook may be only offer say 10 year leases for the refurbished 350s with batteries, whereas new purpose built battery trains with 25 year leases might prove more attractive?

 

[Russel]

But, now there is no franchise system. Porterbrook may be only offer say 10 year leases for the refurbished 350s with batteries, whereas new purpose built battery trains with 25 year leases might prove more attractive?

Why would the lack of franchisees have any impact on this, almost everything has been Government controlled in all but name since 2020.

 

[Invincible]

Why would the lack of franchisees have any impact on this, almost everything has been Government controlled in all but name since 2020.

But until now the leasing companies have not been able to offer longer leases.
It could be Porterbrook could put up a good case for refurbished battery trains, but there will also be pressure to place new train orders with UK train factories.

 

[JamesT]

But until now the leasing companies have not been able to offer longer leases.
It could be Porterbrook could put up a good case for refurbished battery trains, but there will also be pressure to place new train orders with UK train factories.

They could. That’s what Section 54 was for, where the government guaranteed the lease beyond the end of the franchise.
Or the Intercity Express Programme where the government led the procurement for trains with contract for 27.5 years.

 

[Russel]

But until now the leasing companies have not been able to offer longer leases.
It could be Porterbrook could put up a good case for refurbished battery trains, but there will also be pressure to place new train orders with UK train factories.

They could.

 

[D365]

Except the 350s have an advantage, (like 450s, whose first 3 were fitted out for dual voltage testing), they were designed as dual voltage compatible (even if dual voltage equipment was not fitted to every batch). They already have inverters to convert rectified ac into variable frequency ac for drive motors.

In very simple terms (and I realise it's more complicated in practice) just need batteries to clone the 750v (nominal) third rail. Of course there are off the shelf road vehicle battery packs that could be wired up to give say 800v which might be close enough.

Obviously there is a cost of battery packs and finding space and installing them, but in technical terms that isn't complicated. The technical complications come in adapting the coasting and regenerative braking into a battery charging system, and being able to blend the systems.

I refer you back to a previous post in this thread, and in fact, this was a reply to one of your own previous posts:

It's been discussed many a time.

The underframe layout of the Class 350/2 does not lend itself well to adding batteries so the amount one would be able to fit would be highly unlikely to meet the requirements of an operator in the real world.
Combine this with how Flex has reduced the appetite of UK ROSCOs for doing conversions, and it is just highly unlikely to ever happen.

To gain some context without getting into the world of looking at drawings, have a look at the side view of a 350/1 and how many equipment cases are on the underframe. There's realistically only the TCOL(W) (+400) car available for anything on the underframe, on a 20m carriage, less the "HV" control box for the heaters. There isn't that much one can fit in that kind of space in the way of batteries.

 

[Sam 76]

Let's hope so.

Given how much Northern are struggling in the heat and have essentially withdrawn the 323 fleet from Liverpool until Friday let’s hope this is what it’s for

 

[Class 466]

Given how much Northern are struggling in the heat and have essentially withdrawn the 323 fleet from Liverpool until Friday let’s hope this is what it’s for

323 failures seem to be on the increase of late - at least twice a week on the Hadfield line this past couple of months. Hopefully some news on replacement soon.

 

[lowe1409]

323 failures seem to be on the increase of late - at least twice a week on the Hadfield line this past couple of months. Hopefully some news on replacement soon.

As far as I know, I believe northern are struggling sourcing replacement parts for them so certainly due replacement sooner rather than later

 

[AndrewE]

As far as I know, I believe northern are struggling sourcing replacement parts for them so certainly due replacement sooner rather than later

Wikipedia says (I know, it's not reliable)

Of the 43 units built, 34 are in service with Northern Trains, with the remaining 9 being in storage.
The units are expected to continue in service until the early 2030s

so they either need the 9 as stand-by units or they need them for robbing...

 

[Elecman]

Wikipedia says (I know, it's not reliable)

so they either need the 9 as stand-by units or they need them for robbing...

You can’t rob bits of trains that you don’t lease. Unless the owner actually breaks them for spare parts on a commercial basis

 

[AndrewE]

You can’t rob bits of trains that you don’t lease. Unless the owner actually breaks them for spare parts on a commercial basis

If the owner can't or won't help make parts available to keep trains in service then the customer should stop paying the leasing charge on them.

 

[Elecman]

If the owner can't or won't help make parts available to keep trains in service then the customer should stop paying the leasing charge on them.

Then they won’t have any trains to run

 

[Zomboid]

If the owner can't or won't help make parts available to keep trains in service then the customer should stop paying the leasing charge on them.

The owner might want to lease them elsewhere, and won't be able to if a bunch of components are missing. Perfectly reasonable to say "if you want bits of this unit, you need to lease it".

Unless the lease arrangement includes spare parts, but that's unlikely.

 

[Jamesrob637]

A 350 went through Alderley Edge yesterday morning on a Crewe to Manchester Airport training run.

 

[AndrewE]

The owner might want to lease them elsewhere, and won't be able to if a bunch of components are missing. Perfectly reasonable to say "if you want bits of this unit, you need to lease it".

Unless the lease arrangement includes spare parts, but that's unlikely.

why should a TOC (i.e. us) pay to lease trains that are unusable if the owner isn't prepared to make sure - or to help ensure - that they can actually be kept running?

 

[Class 466]

A 350 went through Alderley Edge yesterday morning on a Crewe to Manchester Airport training run.

that’s unrelated to 350/2s and is part of the upcoming LNR Manchester Airport service

 

[The exile]

Then they won’t have any trains to run

If there aren’t any parts they won’t either.

 

[AndrewE]

Then they won’t have any trains to run

If there aren’t any parts they won’t either.

so should a TOC be expected to keep paying the leasing charges in these circumstances?

 

[JamesT]

so should a TOC be expected to keep paying the leasing charges in these circumstances?

If you lease a car and something breaks, it’s your problem to fix it, not the company you’re leasing from.

 

[AndrewE]

If you lease a car and something breaks, it’s your problem to fix it, not the company you’re leasing from.

I'm not so sure about that. You lease a car to use it, if it's not repairable you are not getting what you are paying for.

 

[Jamesrob637]

that’s unrelated to 350/2s and is part of the upcoming LNR Manchester Airport service

Won't that use /2s?