besides I believe 3 tpd, most trains on the branch already terminate at Oxenholme so Northern running a very limited electric service wouldn't make much sense. Plus the 195s interwork with the Barrows at the airport. The only way it might make sense would be if the branch finally got electrified and so the whole service could be run using 350s. However it wouldn't be a terrible idea if done, potentially even extending the terminators past Oxenholme towards Lancaster or even Preston for better connections given the 350s higher top speed.
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Future of the 350/2s
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AlastairFraser
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Isn't the Manchester to Oxenholme 1 every 2 hours? I may be mistaken.
I agree that the Barrows would be much more controversial to split, but Carnforth is a quiet station, you could introduce a guaranteed connection there relatively easily.
I can't see the branch getting electrified yet - it should be, but it won't be yet with budget issues and the advent of battery bi-mode units skewing the business case.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
1 per 3 hours Manchester Airport - Windermere
other 2 hours just Oxenholme - Windermere, with the Airport train going to Barrow (or occasionally further in during the current Whitehaven closure)
AlastairFraser
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Ah it's 1 per 3 hours, makes sense. Thanks for the correction.
stan claire
Member
Probably should've made this more clear, I was referring to the post I quoted saying they did a trial on Manchester-Blackpool
I had a talk with people from Porterbrook at rail live yesterday at it seems like the 350/2s are being kept in good condition whilst stored at long Marston at least.
Every unit has a schedule and is run around the test track at least once a week to keep them mechanically sound , they do exams to the units there when needed after running on the test track and there are two sidings where units can be stored pan up. 250 and 254 were pan up in the electrified sidings when I went.
It seems Porterbrook are hopeful someone will take these units as they are doing all they can to keep them servicable.
Every unit has a schedule and is run around the test track at least once a week to keep them mechanically sound , they do exams to the units there when needed after running on the test track and there are two sidings where units can be stored pan up. 250 and 254 were pan up in the electrified sidings when I went.
It seems Porterbrook are hopeful someone will take these units as they are doing all they can to keep them servicable.
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That is very good to hear, thanks. Let's hope that the holders of the railway purse-strings can see the value of boosting capacity in places where these units can help...
Class 466
Established Member
I think that would be the way forward, meaning Hadfield to Glossop (and vice versa) is still possible once an hour or with a change (and 5-6 minute connection) at Dinting. Would give healthier turnarounds and the opportunity for extended 1 minute dwells enroute to maintain on time performance.
Invincible
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Largest railway industry event gets under way in Long Marston
MORE THAN 7,000 rail industry professionals from across the UK and Europe are descending on Long Marston for the biggest event of its kind.
stratfordobserver.co.uk
Seems quite a big event with "7,000 rail industry professionals from across the UK and Europe"
"the UK’s only heavy-rail hydrogen-ready passenger train will be providing rides around the newly constructed continuous test loop at the Long Marston site."
Doubt if the hydrogen-ready passenger train will progress.
But the new test track could be used to test batteries on one of the 350s stored there?
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pokemonsuper9
Established Member
In theory there's no reason it couldn't.
The test loop can be used to test near enough anything (I don't remember if they have third rail).
The HydroFLEX Class 799 is probably more just a "we have it why not let it have a go" probably won't see mass production, batteries are clearly here.
Liam L
Established Member
Slightly off topic, but do they run the 323s around the test track too to keep them operational as they only other overhead stock there iirc?
The Planner
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They probably aren't so keen as I suspect they want rid of them entirely, hence trying to get Northern to take the 350s.
Didn't ask about the 323s but I do know they have ran a few of the 769s around the track too keep them servicable.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
There is at least someone who has said they want them. Their application did get rejected by the ORR but they'll be back.
How long will this last though, there has to come a point where Porterbrook decide to cut their losses.
The test Loop didn't look like it had 3rd rail from my look about during rail live , but as they have all the electrical equipment for 25KV AC it probably wouldn't be all too difficult to wire up 3rd rail equipment if needed.
Given the 350/2's don't have 3rd rail shoes any battery testing would be reasonable to be done using the current equipment on the first instance.
Adding 3rd rail shoes shouldn't change things much, but then is probably more useful to test on the likely route to see how well battery charging is (i.e. turn up with a near empty battery and then run into Waterloo to see how well the system can charge the battery).
Probably initially late evening when there's fewer trains (may be even the first few are when there's no other trains) before running at busier times.
It's slightly unfortunate that there's not wires between Didcot and Banbury as well as Birmingham and Leamington Spa as well as Bristol to Cheltenham Spa, as then XC could use then run a Bournemouth to Manchester, then head SW to Bristol to overlap with a 22x service from the SW to Bromsgrove to limit the numbers of passengers inconvenienced by the split in the service from the SW to Manchester (it would also allow several other GWR services to be run by EMU and a few more by BEMU), but we are where we are and this would be very much a subject for a different thread given the amount of extra wires required.
Clarence Yard
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There is a very strong rumour going around that the DfT are currently deciding on a possible deal that will mean cl.350/2 units operating in the north of England.
Thinking about this a bit more I imagine the test loop will be worked as "one engine in steam," so they could be driven in either direction to use both cabs. Otherwise they will only be running in the opposite direction when returning to their wired sidings...
Can they be turned on a triangle too, to even out tyre wear? I can imagine a Long Marston shunter taking rakes of them for a little trip off around the fields to eventually end up the other way round (which triggers memories of a tour of the Scunthorpe steelworks railway!)
Let's hope so.
And that their introduction is less fraught than that of the 175s in the SW.
brad465
Veteran Member
If a deal is imminent, I'd like to think the introduction will be less fraught, because 350/2s are being tested and maintained still, whereas the 175s just sat around doing nothing for a couple of years at least.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
If a deal is about to be reached one might deduce that the leasing company has considerably reduced the price compared to the one offered to WMR. - if not, it would be cheaper to have new Cl 730s, as happened.
One wonders about the role of DfT in this. It might seem that they are acting in the best interests of the leasing company, to get the latter off a self-created 'hook'. Seems to me to have happened before.
One wonders about the role of DfT in this. It might seem that they are acting in the best interests of the leasing company, to get the latter off a self-created 'hook'. Seems to me to have happened before.
Hasn't the cost of credit significantly increased since the 730s were ordered? I was under the impression that low interest rates were a significant factor in it being cheaper to buy new at that time. Things have changed a bit since then...
Yes indeed.
On that note, what copes with long periods of storage better, diesel or electric stock? Presumably electric units have less moving parts than diesel which would be beneficial...
The other question is who takes the cost of the write down on the 323 fleet if they only complete 32 years, rather than 35 or 40, assuming it is that fleet which goes for scrap as a result.
Does that all get costed into the 350 price, given common ownership?
Snow1964
Established Member
Yes, back in 2018-2019 interest rates (30 year interest swap rates which is fair one to use) were nearer 1.8 - 2.0%, today the rate is 5.06%.
So at time compound interest over 23-30 years added about 70% to purchase price, so new train cost 170% of purchase price with financing interest.
At today's rate compound interest takes price to nearer 340%
So a new train (with financing interest) is now roughly double the rate from 8 years ago. So whichever way manipulate the numbers, a LeaseCo would be charging about twice as much each month for a train ordered today compared to one ordered 8 years ago. Of course bit more complicated than that, build cost has risen, and profit margins or estimates of service life (to spread cost over) have also changed.
I can't remember when the 350/2 were ordered (2006?), but at the time rates were closer to today's than the low interest period following financial crash autumn 2008
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It's fairly neutral. Electronic circuit boards, small motors and sensors for doors do not like moisture ingress. Lots of small bits to worry about. A big lump of a motor is rather easier to stop moisture ingress.
The real difference is storing them in a dry well ventilated carriage shed vs leaving them outside in cold weather where condensation can get in and then freeze causing damage. Longer storage also has bio hazards (spores etc can establish and grow), so restoring to service becomes hard.
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Liam L
Established Member
I think Northern did send someone to look at possibly taking 2 323s out of there however nothing come of it since.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
This might be a stupid question; but does this mean that the loan to buy the 730s was at 1.8% - 2.0 % fixed for 30 years?
If it varies following, say, bond rates it makes the 730s a poor option after all. On the other hand, I wish I had known about the 30 year fixed offer, I would have been interested
Snow1964
Established Member
Obviously actual rate the deal was done at is commercially sensitive, but was probably close to that. 30 years was just a guess, might be 25 years, or even say split over different timescales.This might be a stupid question; but does this mean that the loan to buy the 730s was at 1.8% - 2.0 % fixed for 30 years?
If it varies following, say, bond rates it makes the 730s a poor option after all. On the other hand, I wish I had known about the 30 year fixed offer, I would have been interested
The whole purpose of interest rate swap deals is to lock in fixed rate at the time, where the other party (usually a big multinational financial institution or bank) takes risk of rates going up or down, they might gain or lose, but will probably have lot of it covered by other deals, loans in vs loans out etc.
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