Dawlish-Teignmouth Overtaking

[Blobfish]

Hi, I was walking along the seafront between Dawlish and Teignmouth on Sunday (28th June) and observed the Paddington to Paignton (RTT link) service being overtaken by the Exeter-Penzance service (RTT link) running on the opposite line (against normal traffic).

I've never seen a service leap-frog another before. Does anyone have any insight on why this happened and is this a regular occurrence?

Thanks

 

[edwin_m]

Can't answer the question directly, but I know the Up line (further from the sea) is bi-directionally signalled to allow some service to continue if the Down line is damaged. Hence signalled overtaking is possible in he Down direction only.

 

[Purple Train]

Hi, I was walking along the seafront between Dawlish and Teignmouth on Sunday (28th June) and observed the Paddington to Paignton (RTT link) service being overtaken by the Exeter-Penzance service (RTT link) running on the opposite line (against normal traffic). I've never seen a service leap-frog another before. Does anyone have any insight on why this happened and is this a regular occurrence?

Thanks

I've had it happen before when I was on a late-running Paddington-Plymouth. I think it's just used to let a late-running fast service overtake a local stopping train while minimising delay to the local - obviously if there's a train booked the other way you can't do it, but it seems to be proactively used where possible.

In your case it looks like exactly that, that the local stopping service was overtaken at Teignmouth by 1C83 Paddington-Plymouth, which was running right behind the Paignton express. (Not sure why the Paignton wasn't held at Dawlish Warren, but there we are.)

 

[HOOVER29]

Saw light engine 66023 overtake 143611 by Kennaway tunnel a few years ago

 

[DJP78]

Bi-directional working applies between Dawlish Warren - Teignmouth section on the Up Main in the down direction. This allows for the signallers to move on-time trains around other trains etc. It's a reasonably common occurrence. Fixed signalling is in situ. Trains return to the down main via the Teignmouth crossover.

 

[Vince C]

I was on a late-running 'Northern' service Stockport to Wilmslow which was switched to 'wrong line' before Handforth to allow a London-bound Pendolino to overtake us 'right line'. This involved a lengthy dwell time at Handforth for the waiting passengers to climb the stairs, cross over the line, and descend the stairs on to the other platform.

 

[The Planner]

I was on a late-running 'Northern' service Stockport to Wilmslow which was switched to 'wrong line' before Handforth to allow a London-bound Pendolino to overtake us 'right line'. This involved a lengthy dwell time at Handforth for the waiting passengers to climb the stairs, cross over the line, and descend the stairs on to the other platform.

I am surprised they bothered, just get you to Adswood Road and out the way, it was only 3 miles away.

 

[scrapy]

I am surprised they bothered, just get you to Adswood Road and out the way, it was only 3 miles away.

The trains were going south by the sounds of it.

 

[QueensCurve]

Not seen it happen there, but seen it on the BLS in Switzerland. One time at Brig I could see a very heavy freight train on the Lötschberg line (it had three Re 6/6 locos at the front and another 3 in middle) waiting someway up the hill on 'the wrong line' while 2 passenger trains overtook it.

 

[edwin_m]

Not so long ago, just before an London-bound train arrived at Bath a freight went through "wrong line", which I assume was heading for Westbury and was thus able to keep out of the way. They were also using both lines bi-directionally to Bathampton during the week-long Bristol-Bath closure last October. But in the UK it's pretty unusual for there to be a long enough gap in traffic for that sort of overtaking on a double line.

 

[sh24]

It happens on the seawall. Not routinely but I"ve done it a couple of times.

 

[sharpener]

I've had it happen before when I was on a late-running Paddington-Plymouth. I think it's just used to let a late-running fast service overtake a local stopping train while minimising delay to the local - obviously if there's a train booked the other way you can't do it, but it seems to be proactively used where possible.

In your case it looks like exactly that, that the local stopping service was overtaken at Teignmouth by 1C83 Paddington-Plymouth, which was running right behind the Paignton express. (Not sure why the Paignton wasn't held at Dawlish Warren, but there we are.)

The 2021 timetable has the hourly Exmouth - Paignton trains recessed for 4 mins in the loops at Dawlish Warren so the expresses could overtake there. I don't know if this still happens, it may have been before the bi-di signalling. I don't know if they are long enough to hold a 9-car 80x.

 

[The Planner]

The trains were going south by the sounds of it.

Good point, well made.

 

[edwin_m]

The 2021 timetable has the hourly Exmouth - Paignton trains recessed for 4 mins in the loops at Dawlish Warren so the expresses could overtake there. I don't know if this still happens, it may have been before the bi-di signalling. I don't know if they are long enough to hold a 9-car 80x.

The bi-di signalling was put in with the Exeter re-signalling, can't remember when this was but way before 2021.

 

[dk1]

Yes it’s all good fun when that happens. On Summer Saturdays around five years back a Penzance bound IET was booked to run bidi from the Warren to Teignmouth and pass the Paignton stopper around the Parsons Cove area.

 

[Purple Train]

I don't know if they are long enough to hold a 9-car 80x.

They are - I think I've been held there on a 9-car while we waited for the train which should have been an hour ahead to overtake us...

 

[QueensCurve]

The bi-di signalling was put in with the Exeter re-signalling, can't remember when this was but way before 2021.

About 1987. Same time as the Newton Abbott remodelling.

 

[Rab Smith]

Here's a video from 2016 showing an XC HST being undertaken by a GWR HST so it's been happening for years!

 

[wimbledonpete]

I've been on a 395 heading to Folkestone that overtook a stopper at Sandling. Also on HS1 when something broke down, we passed a couple of Eurostars.

 

[sharpener]

About 1987. Same time as the Newton Abbott remodelling.

Thanks. It also occurred to me it might have been part of the post-2014 reconstruction and resilience work so earlier than that as well.

2021 was a random date bc that was an old pocket t/t handy on a shelf. According to RTT just now there is still provision in the t/t for overtaking at DWW in both directions (eg 1T11 waits for 8 mins to be passed by 1V42, 2F15 stops there for 16 mins to be passed by 1A81).

But I guess if a down train is going to be late for its slot the bi-di is a useful alternative.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Innerwick to Granthouse (southbound) on the ECML in Scotland could be done to get round a labouring southbound freight. Services were far less frequent in those days. (Once done 'for fun' when the Chairman was trundling south in an inspection saloon and an Up HST was whizzed by around Penmanshiel.) Cowlairs Tunnel and through to Eastfield was often worked 'parallel'.

 

[Vince C]

The trains were going south by the sounds of it.

Yes, a glance at a map shows that Stockport to Wilmslow is southbound.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2026 ==

I am surprised they bothered, just get you to Adswood Road and out the way, it was only 3 miles away.

If you look at a map you'll see that Stockport to Wilmslow is a southbound journey.

 

[The Planner]

Yes, a glance at a map shows that Stockport to Wilmslow is southbound.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2026 ==


If you look at a map you'll see that Stockport to Wilmslow is a southbound journey.

Yep, and I replied earlier to someone else about it.

 

[6Gman]

Was on a Crewe-Manchester Pendolino once when the stopper in front of us was held at Chelford awaiting an ambulance, so we went onto the Up. The TM announced what we were doing and why; very interesting though I did find it a little disconcerting! The 323 was just pulling out at Chelford as we passed so we ran alongside it for a little way.

Very lucky to find a long enough slot to fit us through though!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Stopping westbound trains on the Reliefs can be looped at Maidenhead into platform 4 (normally eastbound). It can be used at peak hours to give cross platform interchange to the Marlow branch trains.

 

[Lucan]

The 2021 timetable has the hourly Exmouth - Paignton trains recessed for 4 mins in the loops at Dawlish Warren so the expresses could overtake there. I don't know if this still happens

I saw it happen a few weeks ago : 5th June, at around 10:00

 

[Uncle Buck]

I have seen this at Westerton where the train I was on, an electric local train starting at Milngavie, was overtaken on the other side by a Class 156 diesel presumably heading down from the West Highland Line (and yes, overtaken- it went back onto the track ahead of us). Rather disconcerting!

 

[Bryson]

Not seen it happen there, but seen it on the BLS in Switzerland. One time at Brig I could see a very heavy freight train on the Lötschberg line (it had three Re 6/6 locos at the front and another 3 in middle) waiting someway up the hill on 'the wrong line' while 2 passenger trains overtook it.

It happens in Canada as well. Last year I was on a Via Rail service from Montreal to Toronto and I was puzzled as to why we had crossed over to the "wrong" line. I soon realised that we were over taking a slower moving train.

 

[Austriantrain]

Not seen it happen there, but seen it on the BLS in Switzerland. One time at Brig I could see a very heavy freight train on the Lötschberg line (it had three Re 6/6 locos at the front and another 3 in middle) waiting someway up the hill on 'the wrong line' while 2 passenger trains overtook it.

Very common in Austria too, as - as in Switzerland, I believe - everywhere is bi-directionally signaled ("wrong-line" working as a term does not exist anymore). If a stopper gets overtaken, if possible the overtaking train will use the "non-scheduled" track, so that at stations en-route, no passenger needs to change platforms at the last minute.

 

[MarkyT]

Thanks. It also occurred to me it might have been part of the post-2014 reconstruction and resilience work so earlier than that as well.

2021 was a random date bc that was an old pocket t/t handy on a shelf. According to RTT just now there is still provision in the t/t for overtaking at DWW in both directions (eg 1T11 waits for 8 mins to be passed by 1V42, 2F15 stops there for 16 mins to be passed by 1A81).

But I guess if a down train is going to be late for its slot the bi-di is a useful alternative.

The bi di on the up line was provided from new. Unfortunately, they also installed continuous conventional track circuiting. The previous absolute block signalling had very few track circuits through the area by contrast. The TI21 jointless track circuits installed worked well in good weather, but with stormy high seas, salty seawater spray often caused multiple failures due to the ballast resistance changing. A special temporary absolute block system was quickly devised at Exeter that could be switched into use by the panel supervisor. That converted all the signalling along the sea wall into a single long block section for each direction between Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth, clearing all the intermediate signals regardless of the state of the track circuits. Staff were posted at the two end stations to observe tail lamps and report back to the panel. Meanwhile, a project was initiated to replace the track circuits with axle counters.