More FCC woes - Deciding what constitutes a peak time service!

[Mike395]

I'm on the 0918 East Midlands Trains service to London St Pancras from Bedford as per usual - however it is much quieter than usual, and here is the reason why:

FCC have 'decided' that the service is a peak service and now have announcements and departure board notices to that effect. They don't seem to understand that the restriction is tied to the ticket (there are no FCC Only flows from Bedford in any case), not the operator! They've even disabled the barriers for off-peak railcard discounted tickets, presumably so that after the 0910 has left (which they acknowledge the ticket is valid on), they can refuse entry to the station.

Mentioned this to the EMT guard literally 2 minutes ago, as he was checking tickets, and he (correctly) took my off-peak ticket, said it was valid, checked my railcard and continued on his way.

Quite how FCC are allowed to take liberties in this way, presumably just to boost their passenger figures, I do not know - no other TOC I have experienced tries to defraud customers quite as much!

 

[yorkie]

I think that the media needs to be contacted. That's got to be a good news story. If I lived in Bedford I'd arrange to be at the station at that time to advise customers and hand out details on how they can complain to the operator, Passenger Focus, and also encourage them to report the matter to the media.

Unfortunately they're not the first TOC to do this sort of thing, and they won't be the last. Southern are acting in a similar way all the time between London and Gatwick...

 

[Dreadnought]

I'm on the 0918 East Midlands Trains service to London St Pancras from Bedford as per usual - however it is much quieter than usual, and here is the reason why:

FCC have 'decided' that the service is a peak service and now have announcements and departure board notices to that effect. They don't seem to understand that the restriction is tied to the ticket (there are no FCC Only flows from Bedford in any case), not the operator! They've even disabled the barriers for off-peak railcard discounted tickets, presumably so that after the 0910 has left (which they acknowledge the ticket is valid on), they can refuse entry to the station.

Mentioned this to the EMT guard literally 2 minutes ago, as he was checking tickets, and he (correctly) took my off-peak ticket, said it was valid, checked my railcard and continued on his way.

Quite how FCC are allowed to take liberties in this way, presumably just to boost their passenger figures, I do not know - no other TOC I have experienced tries to defraud customers quite as much!

Can they stop you going through the barrier anyway? Toilets are platform side from memory so cannot see how they can stop you going through if you have a ticket and require to use them!

 

[Mike395]

Can they stop you going through the barrier anyway? Toilets are platform side from memory so cannot see how they can stop you going through if you have a ticket and require to use them!

Correct, but that isn't really the issue, as most members of the public don't know this, and indeed shouldn't have to!

 

[AlterEgo]

I am astonished that such a practice exists. I am sure that Passenger Focus would love to hear about this!

 

[Furrball]

Might be worth tweeting that to @firstcc and seeing if you get an immediate response.

 

[wibble]

I'm on the 0918 East Midlands Trains service to London St Pancras from Bedford as per usual - however it is much quieter than usual, and here is the reason why:

FCC have 'decided' that the service is a peak service and now have announcements and departure board notices to that effect. They don't seem to understand that the restriction is tied to the ticket (there are no FCC Only flows from Bedford in any case), not the operator! They've even disabled the barriers for off-peak railcard discounted tickets, presumably so that after the 0910 has left (which they acknowledge the ticket is valid on), they can refuse entry to the station.

Mentioned this to the EMT guard literally 2 minutes ago, as he was checking tickets, and he (correctly) took my off-peak ticket, said it was valid, checked my railcard and continued on his way.

Quite how FCC are allowed to take liberties in this way, presumably just to boost their passenger figures, I do not know - no other TOC I have experienced tries to defraud customers quite as much!

Bedford to London Terminals route Any Permitted is priced by FCC so they can decide what constitutes Off Peak from Bedford.

The Off Peak Day ticket carries validity code LS and is valid from Bedford at 0910 or later (e.g. the 0910 or 0918 FCC departures). However, it's not valid on the 0918 EMT service from Bedford as EMT's Off Peak is on trains arriving into St Pancras at 1005 or later.

It might be worth raising this with FCC first, rather than go crying to the media, as this may be a genuine error on their part. FCC publish their Off Peak at 0910 or later from Bedford for their trains and they can't decide to change it part way through a fares round.

 

[bnm]

The Off Peak Day ticket carries validity code LS and is valid from Bedford at 0910 or later (e.g. the 0910 or 0918 FCC departures). However, it's not valid on the 0918 EMT service from Bedford as EMT's Off Peak is on trains arriving into St Pancras at 1005 or later.

So the EMT guard in the OP was wrong to state that the ticket was perfectly valid was he?

Surely the restriction applies to the use of the ticket? Is it not irrelevant whose train you catch? For it to be disallowed on the 0918 EMT service, then as per NRCoC, any such restriction should be printed on the ticket.

 

[Mike395]

Bedford to London Terminals route Any Permitted is priced by FCC so they can decide what constitutes Off Peak from Bedford.

The Off Peak Day ticket carries validity code LS and is valid from Bedford at 0910 or later (e.g. the 0910 or 0918 FCC departures). However, it's not valid on the 0918 EMT service from Bedford as EMT's Off Peak is on trains arriving into St Pancras at 1005 or later.

It might be worth raising this with FCC first, rather than go crying to the media, as this may be a genuine error on their part. FCC publish their Off Peak at 0910 or later from Bedford for their trains and they can't decide to change it part way through a fares round.

The thing is, Off-Peak services have been valid on the 0918 for as long as I can remember, they can't suddenly change it on a whim (I have looked, and it doesnt change in the September fare change either)

 

[yorkie]

The Off Peak Day ticket carries validity code LS and is valid from Bedford at 0910 or later (e.g. the 0910 or 0918 FCC departures). However, it's not valid on the 0918 EMT service from Bedford as EMT's Off Peak is on trains arriving into St Pancras at 1005 or later.

It is valid on the 0918. EMT's restrictions? what do you mean by that?

Restriction : LS
Restriction applies: Monday to
Friday only. No travel
restrictions on other days.

OUTWARD TRAVEL
Valid on the train shown and
all later services:
Bedford 0910
Flitwick 0920
Harlington 0924
Leagrave 0929
Luton 0914*
Luton Airport Parkway 0916
Harpenden 0922
St Albans 0929
Radlett 0934
Elstree & Borehamwood 0938
Mill Hill Broadway 0943
Hendon 0931
Cricklewood 0935
West Hampstead Thameslink 0939
Kentish Town 0943
St Pancras International 0930
Farringdon 0935
City Thameslink 0932
London Blackfriars 0934
London Bridge 0942

It might be worth raising this with FCC first, rather than go crying to the media, as this may be a genuine error on their part. FCC publish their Off Peak at 0910 or later from Bedford for their trains and they can't decide to change it part way through a fares round.

There's no need to be rude.

 

[John @ home]

Bedford to London Terminals route Any Permitted is priced by FCC

There is no Off-Peak Day ticket available Bedford - London Terminals. The available Off-Peak Day ticket is Bedford Stations - London Thameslink. This can be used from either Bedford or Bedford St Johns to any of St Pancras International, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge or Elephant & Castle.

The Off Peak Day ticket carries validity code LS

Agreed. See Validity Code LS..

However, it's not valid on the 0918 EMT service from Bedford as EMT's Off Peak is on trains arriving into St Pancras at 1005 or later.

That's not true. Validity Code LS. applies, allowing travel "on the train shown and all later services: Bedford 0910".

 

[Mike395]

Might be worth tweeting that to @firstcc and seeing if you get an immediate response.

Good idea - have just done this, if they say they're going to look into it fully (and then do, resulting in said notices to disappear) that'll be the end of the matter, but I fear that they may try and defend their signage!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My suspicions are confirmed!

"@mdw1989 There is a 09.18 East Midlands service that the off peak is not available on, but there is a 09.18 FCC service that you can use the ticket on. Ally"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
@mdw1989 you can use it on the fcc 918 but not on the east midlands service that depart the same time. Its always been like that. (in response to me asking when this changed)

Not happy at the blatent lies of FCC CS - any suggestions as to next actions?

 

[AlterEgo]

Twitter is pretty useless at solving complex queries. Do EMT know of the situation? Perhaps a phone call to them might set a few wheels into gear?

 

[radamfi]

Do they announce that Off Peak Day tickets are not valid on the 0918 or just Off Peak tickets (i.e. including one month return tickets)?

 

[Mike395]

Do they announce that Off Peak Day tickets are not valid on the 0918 or just Off Peak tickets (i.e. including one month return tickets)?

The exact wording is 'PEAK SERVICE - OFF PEAK TICKETS NOT VALID' - this implies to me that they are referring to all Off-Peak tickets.

 

[Sleepy]

Twitter is pretty useless at solving complex queries. Do EMT know of the situation? Perhaps a phone call to them might set a few wheels into gear?

Perhaps EMT do not want to overcrowd their train with Bedford off peak pax ?

 

[Mike395]

Perhaps EMT do not want to overcrowd their train with Bedford off peak pax ?

EMT have nothing to do with it - they have to take the restriction as set by FCC. AFAIK they can only request that the 0918 is specifically excluded, however this must be in the restriction text (it isn't) and in my view also printed on the ticket (it isn't)

 

[AlterEgo]

FCC now say they are "trying to clarify" with EMT.

Maybe they should just consult the NFM?

 

[Aictos]

Hang on a second, rather bash FCC why not blame EMT for this confusion?

Ah but of course it's easier to bash FCC as they're operated by First.

FCC is innocent in this matter, it's actually EMT who in the timetable 1 and their control which states
it is a peak service - FCC actually considers it to be a off peak service as shown in the Thameslink timetable so the EMT guard was wrong to accept the ticket in question and will be until EMT resolve this issue.

All due respect to the various ticket experts, this time you're quite wrong however rather then beat FCC down why not take up this East Midlands Trains issue with them or Passenger Focus but please can we stop bashing companies without taking all facts into consideration.

 

[AlterEgo]

No-one's bashing them - actually two members of this forum have politely requested of FCC that they clarify the matter with EMT!

All journey planners will sell me an off-peak ticket for the 0918 EMT train - Restriction LS says it's valid. The ticket experts are quite correct by saying Off-peak tickets are valid!

 

[FGWman]

Twitter is pretty useless at solving complex queries. Do EMT know of the situation? Perhaps a phone call to them might set a few wheels into gear?

I doubt if EMT will be too worried. They will get their cut of the revenue regardless of how many passengers are on board the service.

 

[Olympian]

All the booking engines, including the Trainline powered ones on both EMT's and FCC's own websites will happily sell off-peak tickets for travel on 0918 EMT train from Bedford.

 

[AlterEgo]

All the booking engines, including the Trainline powered ones on both EMT's and FCC's own websites will happily sell off-peak tickets for travel on 0918 EMT train from Bedford.

Indeed.

However FCC are looking into this now with EMT. EMT's PDF timetable appears to be wrong - but the NFM ought to prevail, as it is authoritative.

I'm sure this will be sorted out very soon. I guess this episode does highlight the benefit of prompt and polite complaining.

 

[MikeWh]

Hang on a second, rather bash FCC why not blame EMT for this confusion?

Ah but of course it's easier to bash FCC as they're operated by First.

FCC is innocent in this matter, it's actually EMT who in the timetable 1 and their control which states
it is a peak service - FCC actually considers it to be a off peak service as shown in the Thameslink timetable so the EMT guard was wrong to accept the ticket in question and will be until EMT resolve this issue.

All due respect to the various ticket experts, this time you're quite wrong however rather then beat FCC down why not take up this East Midlands Trains issue with them or Passenger Focus but please can we stop bashing companies without taking all facts into consideration.

With all due respect, the ticket experts are correct on this matter. The restriction code says it is valid on all trains departing at or after 0910 from Bedford. That includes the 0918 EMT service. If it didn't then the restriction would have to be worded very differently.

 

[radamfi]

The exact wording is 'PEAK SERVICE - OFF PEAK TICKETS NOT VALID' - this implies to me that they are referring to all Off-Peak tickets.

Off Peak Return tickets from Bedford to somewhere outside the Network Area are valid between Bedford and London at any time so that wording is very wrong!

 

[AlterEgo]

FCC have clarified the situation and will remove the message from the CIS at the station. Twitter's good!

Right despite what it says in the EMT timetable and on their website, you can use an off peak ticket on the 09.18 from Bedford to London St Pancras. We have asked the staff at Bedford to remove the notice on the CIS. Any problems give me a shout. Ally

 

[Mike395]

FCC have clarified the situation and will remove the message from the CIS at the station. Twitter's good!

Indeed! Thanks for your help in that

Need to make sure it stays that way though - will keep an eye out

 

[wibble]

The Off Peak Day ticket carries validity code LS and is valid from Bedford at 0910 or later (e.g. the 0910 or 0918 FCC departures). However, it's not valid on the 0918 EMT service from Bedford as EMT's Off Peak is on trains arriving into St Pancras at 1005 or later.

Apologies - I've misread validity code LS. There is a restriction on EMT's 0919 Luton - St Pancras, not EMT's 0918 Bedford - St Pancras.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Off Peak Return tickets from Bedford to somewhere outside the Network Area are valid between Bedford and London at any time so that wording is very wrong!

That's not strictly true I'm afraid! Bedford Stations to Ipswich is priced by NXEA and has validity code 7B which restricts:

Morning Peak:
By any train scheduled to arrive at London Terminals at or after 10:00 (10:10 for arrivals at London Paddington) and Stratford International or Stratford (London) at or after 09:50.


By any train scheduled to depart London Terminals at or after 09:30, Stratford International or Stratford (London) at or after 09:38.


Evening Peak
Not valid on any train departing London Terminals between 16:29 and 18:34 inclusive (19:00 for departures from London Kings Cross), between 16:40 and 18:24 inclusive from London Paddington, or on trains departing Stratford (London) between 16:36 and 18:41 inclusive with the following exceptions

 

[yorkie]

I agree it's not well worded but radamfi is correct.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

The restrictions above are those that apply for the London-Ipswich element of the journey, they do not apply for the London-Bedford part.

 

[tony_mac]

It is the same restriction code for both ways, which is why they have duplicated the restrictions for both outward and return journeys.