More FCC woes - Deciding what constitutes a peak time service!

[wibble]

I agree it's not well worded but radamfi is correct.

The restrictions above are those that apply for the London-Ipswich element of the journey, they do not apply for the London-Bedford part.

Yorkie, have a look at the validity code text for 7B - there are specific exclusions for London Terminals. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_7B.pdf

 

[yorkie]

wibble, are you familiar with the Network Area rule regarding Off Peak tickets?

 

[LexyBoy]

I agree it's not well worded but radamfi is correct.

Not just badly worded, but wrongly worded. The restriction text does not specify that the restrictions only apply to the London-Ipswich leg, so the restrictions as written apply to both legs.

NRE interprets the restriction as it is written, not allowing a SVR to be used on trains arriving into London before 1000.

As an aside, is the rule that journeys on the leg within the Network area are unrestricted in the public domain anywhere? I can't see it on e.g. NRE, only on forums and EMT's site (in a document which I'm guessing was only intended for internal publication)

 

[bnm]

Yorkie, have a look at the validity code text for 7B - there are specific exclusions for London Terminals. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_7B.pdf

And if you look at the restriction information for Bedford Stations - Ipswich SVR on the Avantix Traveller CD-Rom (NFM09) you'll find this:

NETWORK AREA:
The London & South East
Network Area is shown in the
London Area Fares section E0

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting outside the Network
Area for travel via London use
restrictions from the origin
station to London and return.
Unless shown otherwise, they
are unrestricted between
London and the destination
station, and return.

 

[radamfi]

This extract from NFM98, which was downloadable from National Rail when it had its 'Technical Manuals' section, mentions the unrestricted Network Area travel for Savers. This rule has been going since long before privatisation.

 

[Aictos]

With all due respect, the ticket experts are correct on this matter. The restriction code says it is valid on all trains departing at or after 0910 from Bedford. That includes the 0918 EMT service. If it didn't then the restriction would have to be worded very differently.

That's all very well but I still say the issue was down to EMT stating that was a peak service and not FCC's fault, similarly if Grand Central were to start calling at Peterborough I expect Grand Central to make sure their services were properly advertised by East Coast.

As it is a off peak service from Bedford, EMT should show this in their timetables and advise their staff of this, FCC do this as do others operators so it isn't hard.

 

[yorkie]

That's all very well but I still say the issue was down to EMT stating that was a peak service and not FCC's fault, similarly if Grand Central were to start calling at Peterborough I expect Grand Central to make sure their services were properly advertised by East Coast.

As it is a off peak service from Bedford, EMT should show this in their timetables and advise their staff of this, FCC do this as do others operators so it isn't hard.

Both companies appear to have messed up on this (but in different ways!). I do wonder if some companies have too many new managers from non-railway backgrounds who don't understand the fundamentals of how things work.

Similar differences occur out of King's Cross, with completely different restrictions on, for example a London to Stevenage ticket compared to a London to Grantham ticket. And the screens are very misleading at King's Cross, how misleading they are depends on the time of travel and the ticket held.

 

[Firestarter]

Both companies appear to have messed up on this (but in different ways!). I do wonder if some companies have too many new managers from non-railway backgrounds who don't understand the fundamentals of how things work.

Similar differences occur out of King's Cross, with completely different restrictions on, for example a London to Stevenage ticket compared to a London to Grantham ticket. And the screens are very misleading at King's Cross, how misleading they are depends on the time of travel and the ticket held.

You wonder correctly in my opinion.:grin::grin:

 

[radamfi]

Just tested Three Bridges to Norwich Off Peak Return on the Southern site and it doesn't allow departure from Three Bridges until 0942, meaning you miss the first few Off Peak trains out of Liverpool Street. However, Three Bridges to Birmingham Off Peak Return allows you to travel from Three Bridges at 0806 so you can make the first Off Peak train out of Euston.

Surely this inconsistent application of the 'Network Area' rule is something that ought to be raised with ATOC as a matter of urgency? Presumably lots of people are unnecessarily paying Anytime fares as a result?

 

[ian13]

It would really help if the concept of peak and off-peak 'trains' was stamped out. It's the ticket restriction code which decides what trains you can travel on with an off-peak ticket.

 

[LexyBoy]

Just tested Three Bridges to Norwich Off Peak Return on the Southern site and it doesn't allow departure from Three Bridges until 0942, meaning you miss the first few Off Peak trains out of Liverpool Street. However, Three Bridges to Birmingham Off Peak Return allows you to travel from Three Bridges at 0806 so you can make the first Off Peak train out of Euston.

Surely this inconsistent application of the 'Network Area' rule is something that ought to be raised with ATOC as a matter of urgency? Presumably lots of people are unnecessarily paying Anytime fares as a result?

Three Bridges - Norwich has restriction code 7B as discussed earlier. As written, this restricts both legs of the journey and it appears that it is interpreted in this way by journey planners.

Other restriction codes only include restrictions on the leg outside of the Network area (i.e. the 9I restriction on a TBD-BHM SVR restricts only trains leaving London on the outbound, and arriving London on the return). Thus there is no need for the journey planner to understand the Network area rule, as it is implicit in the restrictions.

I'd agree that it certainly does need amending ASAP, and
I hope that this situation has arisen through laziness and general incompetence in writing the restriction - and trying to have a single text apply to both journeys out of, and in to, the Network area - rather than a deliberate attempt to further restrict Off Peak validity.

 

[radamfi]

I should also add that Super Off Peak fares from the Network Area to outside it are also unrestricted from Network Area origin to/from London.