London Buses Discussion

[duncombec]

Entirely unsurprisingly, agreement has been reached between KCC and TfL over Dartford area routes 96/428/492. In each case, my bolding.

A little heavy on the political rhetoric (equally unsurprisingly), but Dartford Reform have the following on Facebook:

DARTFORD BUS ROUTES PROTECTED

KENT TAX PAYERS PROTECTED

After TfL announced proposals that could have seen vital local bus services reduced, your Dartford Reform county councillors immediately held discussions with KCC transport officers to stress just how important these routes are to Dartford.
Following months of discussions and pressure, I’m pleased to confirm that Kent County Council has now reached an agreement with TFL on the increased fee required to maintain route 96 access to the Fastrack busway between Darent Valley Hospital and Bluewater.
This is the right result for our community. It means KCC and TfL have reached a deal that protects local services while also working for Kent and Dartford taxpayers.
TfL has also confirmed that there are currently no plans to change the structure of routes 96, 428 or 492.

One of the Dartford North East Councillors (Cllr Ben Fryer, also Reform)

Hi everyone, I thought I would give you a quick update on the recent concerns surrounding TFL bus routes into Dartford.
Many of you will have seen claims that KCC was trying to impose a new “bus tax” on TfL simply for using a Kent road. That is not accurate.
TfL already pays an agreed fee to use the Fastrack busway between Darent Valley Hospital and Bluewater. That fee has remained unchanged for nine years. With maintenance costs having risen, and no increase for 9 years, KCC reasonably asked TfL to make a fairer contribution towards the infrastructure its service uses - an important piece of infrastructure maintained on behalf of Kent taxpayers.
I have also been pressing TfL for some time to stop at existing bus stops along Watling Street and elsewhere on the route. This would allow more Dartford residents to benefit from a service that currently passes through parts of our community without stopping.
When we learned that TfL was considering changes that could have affected these important services, the five other Dartford county councillors and I immediately raised our concerns with KCC’s transport officers. Over recent weeks, we have made it clear just how important these routes are to residents travelling to work, Bluewater and appointments at Darent Valley Hospital.
I am therefore pleased to confirm today that Kent County Council and TfL have reached an agreement on the fee required for route 96 to continue using the Fastrack busway between Darent Valley Hospital and Bluewater.
This is the right result for Dartford. It protects vital local bus links while ensuring a fair agreement for Kent and Dartford taxpayers.
Thank you to everyone who raised concerns about these routes. All of your Dartford Reform Councullors will continue to push for Dartford residents to receive greater benefit from the services travelling through our community.

 

[MotCO]

Entirely unsurprisingly, agreement has been reached between KCC and TfL over Dartford area routes 96/428/492. In each case, my bolding.

A little heavy on the political rhetoric (equally unsurprisingly), but Dartford Reform have the following on Facebook:


One of the Dartford North East Councillors (Cllr Ben Fryer, also Reform)

No mention of whether TfL will pay any inflation increase for the right to access the Fastrack road. Nor does it address additional stops for buses to serve Dartford residents. So who backed down?

 

[duncombec]

No mention of whether TfL will pay any inflation increase for the right to access the Fastrack road. Nor does it address additional stops for buses to serve Dartford residents. So who backed down?

Why does anyone have to have "backed down"? Perhaps they agreed on a fee part way between less than KCC were originally asking, but more than TfL were currently paying, as part of common negotiation?

The whole "story" was pulled out of three-month old Council Committee minutes anyway, so was already likely to be out of date before it even broke... as has been said once or twice already!

 

[Mikey C]

Why does anyone have to have "backed down"? Perhaps they agreed on a fee part way between less than KCC were originally asking, but more than TfL were currently paying, as part of common negotiation?

The whole "story" was pulled out of three-month old Council Committee minutes anyway, so was already likely to be out of date before it even broke... as has been said once or twice already!

Maybe it's like Jim Hacker's Yes Minister "Eurosausage". Get a bad news story out there, so that you can come back with a triumphant solution

 

[MotCO]

Maybe it's like Jim Hacker's Yes Minister "Eurosausage". Get a bad news story out there, so that you can come back with a triumphant solution

I'm sure it's a recognised tactic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2026 ==

The Telegraph is reporting a bus fire at Westbourne Park bus garage yesterday evening (24 June) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/06/25/electric-london-bus-fire-heatwave/

Pictures show an Optare Omnidecker on fire; this is not the first such bus to go up in flames - one of Go-Ahead's at Merton did likewise a few years back, and they have only recently come back into service after adaptations.

An electric London bus burst into flames on the hottest June day since records began.
Footage captured the double-decker on fire at a bus depot in Westbourne Park, west London, on Wednesday evening. The bus and two electric charging points were destroyed in the blaze.
Workers could be seen watching in shock as flames tore through the No 23 bus, which goes between Westbourne Park and Aldwych. The cause of the fire is under investigation.
More than two dozen firemen tackled the fire at the depot on Great Western Road. It was extinguished in less than an hour.
In a statement, London Fire Brigade said: “The fire involved a double-decker electric bus, which was destroyed by the fire. Two electric vehicle charging points were also destroyed. There are no reports of any injuries.


“The Brigade was first called about the fire at 6.23pm, and crews had the incident under control by 7.11pm. Firefighters will remain on scene into the evening. Crews from North Kensington and Paddington fire stations attended the scene.”

Two dozen firefighters tackled the blaze Credit: X/@zonjy_

Smoke could be seen for miles around, including from Lord’s cricket ground, where England women were taking on the West Indies in the T20 World Cup.
Nearby Westbourne Park Tube station shut after the blaze started. Trains did not stop there until it reopened at 6.56pm.
Westbourne Park Garage is operated by First Bus London and serves several London bus routes.
In January 2024, a fleet of electric buses was withdrawn from south London after a double-decker caught fire during the morning rush hour in Wimbledon.
Transport for London said electric buses operated by London General – a subsidiary of Go-Ahead London – on route 200 had been removed from service “as a precaution”.
That month, an electric bus also caught fire in a bus garage on Chelverton Road, Putney.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2026 ==

The Telegraph is reporting a bus fire at Westbourne Park bus garage yesterday evening (24 June) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/06/25/electric-london-bus-fire-heatwave/

Pictures show an Optare Omnidecker on fire; this is not the first such bus to go up in flames - one of Go-Ahead's at Merton did likewise a few years back, and they have only recently come back into service after adaptations.

An electric London bus burst into flames on the hottest June day since records began.
Footage captured the double-decker on fire at a bus depot in Westbourne Park, west London, on Wednesday evening. The bus and two electric charging points were destroyed in the blaze.
Workers could be seen watching in shock as flames tore through the No 23 bus, which goes between Westbourne Park and Aldwych. The cause of the fire is under investigation.
More than two dozen firemen tackled the fire at the depot on Great Western Road. It was extinguished in less than an hour.
In a statement, London Fire Brigade said: “The fire involved a double-decker electric bus, which was destroyed by the fire. Two electric vehicle charging points were also destroyed. There are no reports of any injuries.


“The Brigade was first called about the fire at 6.23pm, and crews had the incident under control by 7.11pm. Firefighters will remain on scene into the evening. Crews from North Kensington and Paddington fire stations attended the scene.”

Two dozen firefighters tackled the blaze Credit: X/@zonjy_

Smoke could be seen for miles around, including from Lord’s cricket ground, where England women were taking on the West Indies in the T20 World Cup.
Nearby Westbourne Park Tube station shut after the blaze started. Trains did not stop there until it reopened at 6.56pm.
Westbourne Park Garage is operated by First Bus London and serves several London bus routes.
In January 2024, a fleet of electric buses was withdrawn from south London after a double-decker caught fire during the morning rush hour in Wimbledon.
Transport for London said electric buses operated by London General – a subsidiary of Go-Ahead London – on route 200 had been removed from service “as a precaution”.
That month, an electric bus also caught fire in a bus garage on Chelverton Road, Putney.

 

[Mikey C]

At least it was an expendable bus...

 

[PGAT]

All of the metrodeckers in London have now been pulled out of service. Merton have sourced various diesels, hybrids and electrics elsewhere to cover the slack on the 200, and the 23 and 452 are running a limited service.

 

[TrenHotel]

Why does anyone have to have "backed down"? Perhaps they agreed on a fee part way between less than KCC were originally asking, but more than TfL were currently paying, as part of common negotiation?

The whole "story" was pulled out of three-month old Council Committee minutes anyway, so was already likely to be out of date before it even broke... as has been said once or twice already!

TfL have confirmed that an agreement has been reached.

But a compromise appears to have been reached. A TfL spokesperson told The Greenwich Wire on Friday: “Kent County Council charges TfL for the use of the Fastrack busway between Darent Valley Hospital and Bluewater. Kent recently asked TfL for a significant increase in that contribution.

“Following discussions, TfL has reached an agreement with Kent County Council to secure continued access to the Fastrack busway for buses on route 96. There continues to be no current plans to change the structure of TfL bus routes 96, 428 or 492.”

 

[Thirteen]

At this point, it'd be easier and cheaper just to scrap the Metrodeckers and replace them with Streetdecks.

I noticed that the 28 is going from Metroline to First London with new electric buses from next May and will be based at the new Wandsworth garage. Given the route already starts and terminates at Wandsworth, it makes a lot of sense.

Will be interesting to see which buses First go with for the 28, guessing the BD11.

 

[DesDobramento]

At this point, it'd be easier and cheaper just to scrap the Metrodeckers and replace them with Streetdecks.

I noticed that the 28 is going from Metroline to First London with new electric buses from next May and will be based at the new Wandsworth garage. Given the route already starts and terminates at Wandsworth, it makes a lot of sense.

Will be interesting to see which buses First go with for the 28, guessing the BD11.

What is the source confirming a Wandsworth operation please?

 

[91104]

Not sure if this belongs in the London buses section or not but an interesting development from first Essex from the end of next month into tfl land when route B1 currently a local Basildon route gains a lengthy extension along the A127 to Harold Wood station. Probably aimed at people who possibly want to a cheaper trip into London and access to the Elizabeth line using the fare cap and tfl train fares be interesting to see if it lasts.

https://www.firstbus.co.uk/sites/default/files/public/node_images/essex/B1%2007-26.pdf

 

[Mark L]

What is the source confirming a Wandsworth operation please?

It’s come from an internal notice to staff.

 

[PeterC]

Not sure if this belongs in the London buses section or not but an interesting development from first Essex from the end of next month into tfl land when route B1 currently a local Basildon route gains a lengthy extension along the A127 to Harold Wood station. Probably aimed at people who possibly want to a cheaper trip into London and access to the Elizabeth line using the fare cap and tfl train fares be interesting to see if it lasts.

https://www.firstbus.co.uk/sites/default/files/public/node_images/essex/B1%2007-26.pdf

That's a hefty saving on a trip to Westfield.

 

[TrenHotel]

Not sure if this belongs in the London buses section or not but an interesting development from first Essex from the end of next month into tfl land when route B1 currently a local Basildon route gains a lengthy extension along the A127 to Harold Wood station. Probably aimed at people who possibly want to a cheaper trip into London and access to the Elizabeth line using the fare cap and tfl train fares be interesting to see if it lasts.

https://www.firstbus.co.uk/sites/default/files/public/node_images/essex/B1%2007-26.pdf

Interesting. I’m a little bit surprised none of the Kent operators tried a “fast to Abbey Wood” service to compete with the poor rail service from there to Dartford and beyond.

 

[Class707SE]

Interesting. I’m a little bit surprised none of the Kent operators tried a “fast to Abbey Wood” service to compete with the poor rail service from there to Dartford and beyond.

Abbey Wood to Dartford is no small distance and with peak traffic, it would unlikely to be better than waiting for a train, especially with the additional cost.

 

[Man of Kent]

Abbey Wood to Dartford is no small distance and with peak traffic, it would unlikely to be better than waiting for a train, especially with the additional cost.

Unfortunately the two half-hourly services providing this link run 7 minutes apart, creating two 23 minute gaps each hour, in both directions. With Thameslink's summer reductions, there will be only 3 trains an hour.
Rail replacement buses calling at all stations were scheduled at 31 minutes a fortnight ago; a non-stop bus would be faster, but still slower than a 12 to 14 minute rail journey.

 

[alex397]

At lunchtime today, I attempted to get a bus from Fleet Street to Liverpool Street.
I could see a 26 coming, but also could see how painfully slow the traffic was moving.
Thought I’d walk up to St Paul’s to maybe catch one in front, but the traffic was almost at a standstill. In the end I walked to Liverpool Street, and by the time I got there the bus I was originally waiting for at Fleet Street was only just past St Paul’s. Bearing in mind I walked slowly, taking photos of buildings and even popping into Tesco Express.

I do now wonder why anyone would get on a central London bus unless they had absolutely no other option! From my experience, London has to be one of the worst European capitals for bus services.

London buses are often the only option for people with disabilities. Many of the tube lines are off limits.
Thankfully I can still walk fine on flat surfaces, but I now have to restrict myself to London buses or rail lines with lifts. Buses really seem to have been neglected!

 

[MotCO]

At lunchtime today, I attempted to get a bus from Fleet Street to Liverpool Street.
I could see a 26 coming, but also could see how painfully slow the traffic was moving.
Thought I’d walk up to St Paul’s to maybe catch one in front, but the traffic was almost at a standstill. In the end I walked to Liverpool Street, and by the time I got there the bus I was originally waiting for at Fleet Street was only just past St Paul’s. Bearing in mind I walked slowly, taking photos of buildings and even popping into Tesco Express.

I do now wonder why anyone would get on a central London bus unless they had absolutely no other option! From my experience, London has to be one of the worst European capitals for bus services.

London buses are often the only option for people with disabilities. Many of the tube lines are off limits.
Thankfully I can still walk fine on flat surfaces, but I now have to restrict myself to London buses or rail lines with lifts. Buses really seem to have been neglected!

Take away the under-utilsed bike lanes and traffic schemes, and traffic speeds will increase.

 

[py_megapixel]

Take away the under-utilsed bike lanes and traffic schemes, and traffic speeds will increase.

Not if the roads fill up with cars they won't.

 

[Deerfold]

Take away the under-utilsed bike lanes and traffic schemes, and traffic speeds will increase.

Or remove all unnecessary cars.

 

[Mikey C]

There aren't vast numbers of private cars in Central London anyway.

 

[Magrar]

I haven't been to central London in yonks.

How can it still be this bad? Traffic (mostly buses and taxis) crawling along at literal walking pace is how I remember it.

Too many/few traffic routing options?

Too many short hoppers?

Too many buses!?!?!?!?!

 

[Deerfold]

There aren't vast numbers of private cars in Central London anyway.

Whilst car ownership is lower than in most of the country, around 58% of households in London own a car and population is denser than in most of the country.

 

[dmncf]

Lots of delivery vehicles on London roads too.

 

[Magrar]

Lots of delivery vehicles on London roads too.

A single delivery van can take ~100 uneccesary journeys off the bus network a day.

That's a lot of bums on seats.

 

[Mikey C]

Whilst car ownership is lower than in most of the country, around 58% of households in London own a car and population is denser than in most of the country.

The question was about a journey right in the centre of London, Fleet Street to Liverpool Street, where miniscule numbers of people are driving private cars.

I live in London and have a car, but would never drive into the centre

 

[Railguy1]

It’s been fixed after about at least half a year or more.

Broken again. An absolute joke.

Does no one on this thread have any knowledge of what on earth is going wrong with the bus stop in Pinner?

 

[alex397]

The traffic was largely made up of buses (many of them sightseeing buses), coaches, delivery vans, construction lorries , and taxis. I didn’t really notice any private cars, and removing cycle lanes there wouldn’t make much difference.
There doesn’t seem a time of the day where traffic is lighter. Just constant jams throughout the day.

 

[Mark L]

The traffic was largely made up of buses (many of them sightseeing buses), coaches, delivery vans, construction lorries , and taxis. I didn’t really notice any private cars, and removing cycle lanes there wouldn’t make much difference.
There doesn’t seem a time of the day where traffic is lighter. Just constant jams throughout the day.

A large part of the problem is transit time through junctions. The pedestrian crossing cycle on traffic lights is much longer these days and at many junctions, including Ludgate Circus, there is a phase for bikes. This slows buses down.

Roadworks don’t help either.

 

[Edvid]

Loughton Town Council will be contributing £50,000 to give the 397 (South Chingford to Debden via Chingford and Loughton) an evening service. It currently runs daily, with last journeys leaving at both ends at 19.15. Proposals show this will be extended by two hours to 21.15.

One extra Mon-Fri service each way as of 27 July - from Debden at 20:15, then from Sainsbury's (near Crooked Billet junction) at 21:15

Rather than a variation of the 397 contract it'll be a LSP add-on provided by Central Connect.

Central Connect Transport Ltd has applied to Transport for London to operate a new service, consisting of a single return journey later in the evening over the existing TfL route 397, on behalf of Loughton Town Council. This service would directly match the TfL contracted route and passengers with Oyster Cards would be permitted to travel free of charge.
[...]
Vehicle Single Deck – 5.7 metres length, 2.03 metres wide

Whatever they'll use it's apparently even smaller than their Sprinter minibuses.