Go Cornwall Bus

[Accelerator59]

Yeah - they've had to go out and source a chunk of fleet for the increased requirements, and it probably meant that the 2006/7 vintage ones also had to be retained when they were destined to be ousted.

Let's also not forget that as we entered 2024, there were still plenty of 18-20 year old B7TL Geminis in service with FK, fans screeching.

I would hope that Go Ahead have managed to stabilise things, and can then get on with some proper fleet replacement.

Did I read before those 60/11/61/12/62 Enviros came down, that there was meant to be a 13-plate Enviro, SN13 CJX I think (may need correcting).

 

[Goldfish62]

I am still greatful for GoCornwall for stepping in!

Grateful? They deliberately hastened First's demise by competing against them on key corridors then largely replaced First's services with ones with inferior frequencies.

The state of their vehicles, poor marketing and publicity and other issues such as almost complete lack of functioning next stop announcements shows to me that this is an operation that is only committed to providing a bare minimum standard of service - in contrast to most other GA OpCos.

 

[Andyh82]

Grateful? They deliberately hastened First's demise by competing against them on key corridors then largely replaced First's services with ones with inferior frequencies.

I was going to make the same comment

It’s like someone burgling your house and then being grateful when they sell you your old TV back

Everyone was hanging their hopes on a summer uplift and that has turned out to be a non event

 

[Goldfish62]

It’s like someone burgling your house and then being grateful when they sell you your old TV back

That's a great analogy!

Everyone was hanging their hopes on a summer uplift and that has turned out to be a non event

I was told by others elsewhere in GA not to worry. That GCB realised they'd been over-cautious and there would be improvements on the way. Now we know that amounts to a damp squib of an uplift (it can barely be called an uplift) lasting just five weeks and some very minor tweaks to the year-round timetables.

Travelling on the 6 yesterday was an unpleasant experience. The route has now standardised on the shortest E200s and it was standing room only on consecutive trips leaving Mousehole mid - afternoon. That's a weekday during school term. What's it going to be like during the summer holidays?! Ideally slightly larger 9.8m buses would be used, but most of these, previously purchased for the Cornwall contracts, went to Dartline for their newly-won Devon contracts.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is absolutely true that they hastened First's demise in the final act. However, and please be assured that I'm not singling anyone out AND I have no dog in the fight, it has to be said that the final competition was simply the rabbit punch (hunting meaning, not boxing) to put it out of its misery. They lost the council work in 2020, Covid came, and then they lost the schools and college work and with operations shorn down, it was increasingly likely that First Kernow wouldn't survive in any case. Remember that even before summer 2025 and the loss of the schools and college work, First had been losing c£4.5m p.a. in its FSW operations and the majority of that was in Cornwall. Losses that size aren't the result of having one or two depots more than they should post 2020, and nor was it because of an increase in group recharges (though they had increased). Simply it's a consequence of a fundamental drop in its day to day revenues (post-Covid) allied to increases in its cost base. The comparison between 2019 accounts and 2023 is quite interesting.

So whilst GCB may well have instituted frequencies that are inferior, perhaps they are also more sustainable? Talking about inferior timetables, let's not forget the fantastic First 17/17A timetable from Sep 2024 when they decided to use their AI software which meant a bus at random times during the day but was really a move from an hourly service to one every 96 mins seemingly.

The state of their vehicles, poor marketing and publicity and other issues such as almost complete lack of functioning next stop announcements shows to me that this is an operation that is only committed to providing a bare minimum standard of service - in contrast to most other GA OpCos.

I won't argue with the comparison with some Go Ahead subsidiaries. I would assume you're thinking of the most direct comparison (Go South Coast) and the B&H/Metrobus stable, and yes, Go South West is not in the same league as those. However, if you look elsewhere... compared to the now offloaded Go East Anglia operation, it was immeasurably better and, dare I say it, Go North East is not the happiest of barracks. Perhaps the most obvious comparison is Oxford where the main city operation is good but the associated Carousel operation has expanded like topsy and the quality is "inconsistent" to say the least with newish stuff augmented by secondhand fleet of mixed origin and age.

Marketing is poor - no argument. The bare minimum of service standards... it's a bit "white bread". A staple but not exciting and not convinced that the MD really does much more than that. So that is absolutely fair criticism - they are really quite perfunctory in providing a somewhat basic, unexciting product.

Now being specific about the issues of smaller vehicles and passengers crush loaded onto vehicles... what about the Sprinters on the M6, and the Solos before that? Is a 19 seat Solo better than a 29 seat e200mmc? Also, what about the new Solos delivered for use on the A17 - a move I questioned at the time! The same Solos appearing on Tinner boards in the last couple of years?


When all is said and done, I think people are grieving for the loss of the 2019 First Kernow. A time when new vehicle investment was unprecedented, they saw off Western Greyhound and it was a (no pun) go ahead looking business with a clear focus on marketing and growing the business. The impact of the loss of the council contracts was lost in the overall Covid upheaval - what may have happened, we'll never know. The Vision 2020 was a reaction to it and it again, would it have been a success had there hadn't been issues with lockdowns and restrictions etc, the staffing problems endemic in the industry that meant stuff like Sunseeker could never be properly resourced?

Certainly, by the time we got to 2022, the cracks were appearing and in the last few years, First Kernow had ceased to be that pioneering and innovative business and were increasingly characterised by scruffy and battered cascades, some being repainted but not vinyled, and even the e400mmcs looking increasingly careworn.

Compared to 2019, GCB is not a patch on that operation. Compared to FK 2025... I'd argue it's no worse and probably better.

 

[kernowbususer]

Were the same criticisms aimed at First when they launched a number of services to compete with Western Greyhound when they were struggling?

 

[LAIRA]

Did I read before those 60/11/61/12/62 Enviros came down, that there was meant to be a 13-plate Enviro, SN13 CJX I think (may need correcting).

4033 not yet in service.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is absolutely true that they hastened First's demise in the final act. However, and please be assured that I'm not singling anyone out AND I have no dog in the fight, it has to be said that the final competition was simply the rabbit punch (hunting meaning, not boxing) to put it out of its misery.

Undoubtedly true, but the fact remains that GCB invested a considerable amount in competing services to ensure First's demise. To my mind they were keen to establish a stable commercial network in Cornwall ahead of the retendering exercise. Thus I don't agree with the view that we should somehow be grateful to them for stepping in.

So whilst GCB may well have instituted frequencies that are inferior, perhaps they are also more sustainable? Talking about inferior timetables, let's not forget the fantastic First 17/17A timetable from Sep 2024 when they decided to use their AI software really a move from an hourly service to one every 96 mins seemingly.

That 17/17A timetable was a low point, although it was subsequently rectified. In the run-up to the closure the former CD of FSW was quite candid on Facebook. He contended thar the commercial routes themselves made money, but it was the overheads that killed it all, ie a comparatively large number of depots for the PVR. Now GA seem to be in the same position given they have acquired First's depots but not used that as an opportunity to close any of the existing outstations. There are currently 17 sites (excluding Falmouth) for 210 vehicles. An average of just over 12 per site.

GA's frequencies are undoubtedly sustainable, but some are now so unattractive that it does nothing to attract passengers and I think there's going to be carnage on some routes over the summer. A five week period of minimal enhancements to me is just bonkers when there are already so many visitors in the area. Stagecoach introduced its summer enhancements in Devon in May.

I won't argue with the comparison with some Go Ahead subsidiaries. I would assume you're thinking of the most direct comparison (Go South Coast) and the B&H/Metrobus stable, and yes, Go South West is not in the same league as those. However, if you look elsewhere... compared to the now offloaded Go East Anglia operation, it was immeasurably better and, dare I say it, Go North East is not the happiest of barracks. Perhaps the most obvious comparison is Oxford where the main city operation is good but the associated Carousel operation has expanded like topsy and the quality is "inconsistent" to say the least with newish stuff augmented by secondhand fleet of mixed origin and age.

I was specifically focusing on fleet condition and excluding the East Anglia operation given that was sold a while ago. I agree that Carousel is pretty scrappy, but it still doesn't have the consistently poor appearance of the GSW fleet. You should see some of the botched repairs - it's something you'd expect of a tatty independent on its last legs. And there's the legally required next stop announcements on post Oct 2014 buses. All you get is a screen that is either blank, showing adverts, or stuck on an incorrect route. It all gives the impression that there's no one really bothered about fleet presentation.

Now being specific about the issues of smaller vehicles and passengers crush loaded onto vehicles... what about the Sprinters on the M6, and the Solos before that? Is a 19 seat Solo better than a 29 seat e200mmc? Also, what about the new Solos delivered for use on the A17 - a move I questioned at the time! The same Solos appearing on Tinner boards in the last couple of years?

The Solos had more seats than that, but my point was that we were promised increased capacity and that Newlyn and Alverton passengers would no longer have to squeeze onto buses. Instead we've a slight reduction in seating capacity and ever-more crowded buses as the summer gets under way, but reduced frequencies and the service no longer serving Mousehole harbour. It's not what was promised.

When all is said and done, I think people are grieving for the loss of the 2019 First Kernow. A time when new vehicle investment was unprecedented, they saw off Western Greyhound and it was a (no pun) go ahead looking business with a clear focus on marketing and growing the business. The impact of the loss of the council contracts was lost in the overall Covid upheaval - what may have happened, we'll never know. The Vision 2020 was a reaction to it and it again, would it have been a success had there hadn't been issues with lockdowns and restrictions etc, the staffing problems endemic in the industry that meant stuff like Sunseeker could never be properly resourced?

Certainly, by the time we got to 2022, the cracks were appearing and in the last few years, First Kernow had ceased to be that pioneering and innovative business and were increasingly characterised by scruffy and battered cascades, some being repainted but not vinyled, and even the e400mmcs looking increasingly careworn.

Compared to 2019, GCB is not a patch on that operation. Compared to FK 2025... I'd argue it's no worse and probably better.

I most certainly do not look at First through rose-tinted spectacles. Even their 2019 operation was wanting in many ways. I'd have expected better of GoAhead though. Comparing current GoCornwall to 2025 First - I'd say GCB must be more sustainable given the lean service levels, but vehicle standards and service levels are worse. Overall it's a disappointment - so far.

 

[MotCO]

An operator with a significant number of elderly buses* suggests an operator with not much spare money. Was this a consequence of bidding low to get the initial contract, or operating costs rising faster than the contract or fares revenue allows for? There was an initial problem about recruiting sufficient drivers; is recruitment still an issue such that wage rates have had to increase to attract staff, also reducing profit margins?

* from the previous analysis in post #3387, approximately 25% of the fleet is over 14 years old, and 50% is over 10 years old

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Solos had more seats than that, but my point was that we were promised increased capacity and that Newlyn and Alverton passengers would no longer have to squeeze onto buses. Instead we've a slight reduction in seating capacity and ever-more crowded buses as the summer gets under way, but reduced frequencies and the service no longer serving Mousehole harbour. It's not what was promised.

A couple were 19 seaters though the ex Regal ones were 23 seaters. However, the FK fleet was Sprinters and that is what Go Cornwall Bus replaced. They were 16 seaters so perhaps they can claim to have increased capacity?

Undoubtedly true, but the fact remains that GCB invested a considerable amount in competing services to ensure First's demise. To my mind they were keen to establish a stable commercial network in Cornwall ahead of the retendering exercise. Thus I don't agree with the view that we should somehow be grateful to them for stepping in.

I don't agree with the "grateful" line and didn't suggest you or anyone else should be.

The competitive registrations were frankly the final act of a long and protracted demise. GCB were obviously keen to establish a commercial network ahead of the next tender exercise and to remove the most likely competitor. It made absolute business sense. Arguably, they didn't have to invest too much and they probably knew that First would throw their cards in which is what happened after 5 months (well, 3.5 when the announcement came) given that First had been suffering even before the loss of the schools and college work.

That 17/17A timetable was a low point, although it was subsequently rectified. In the run-up to the closure the former CD of FSW was quite candid on Facebook. He contended thar the commercial routes themselves made money, but it was the overheads that killed it all, ie a comparatively large number of depots for the PVR. Now GA seem to be in the same position given they have acquired First's depots but not used that as an opportunity to close any of the existing outstations. There are currently 17 sites (excluding Falmouth) for 210 vehicles. An average of just over 12 per site.

GA's frequencies are undoubtedly sustainable, but some are now so unattractive that it does nothing to attract passengers and I think there's going to be carnage on some routes over the summer. A five week period of minimal enhancements to me is just bonkers when there are already so many visitors in the area. Stagecoach introduced its summer enhancements in Devon in May.

The CD of FSW may well have said that but this was a business lost £14m in three years and that was before they lost the schools and college work. Now looking at the results from 2025... There is a big chunk of "other external charges" - it's all a bit opaque as to what they refer to. Is that central overhead recovery - paying the corporate fees, self insurance, payroll? Can't tell but it's a big figure. Another issue is that the staff reduced from 675 to 606 but the staff costs only reduced from £21m to £20m which shows the impact of paying higher wages to recruit/retain staff.

Once First lost the schools and college work, what was already a challenge on their fixed overhead would've been fatal in any case without making some moves to close depots. So yes, the overhead would've been an issue; it arguably had been once they lost the council work in 2020. Now you suggest that as they have taken the same sites on, GCB will be in the same position.

I assume that we're looking at the same 17 sites listed on the O license? Well, a number of those are the ones that they can't replace as they're out of the area in North or East Cornwall viz Bodmin, Bude, Liskeard, Launceston. Then there's the sites themselves - Bude has two sites with one being just a yard, and that's true of a number of locations. There's some Cormac sites (don't know the cost of those) but other are shared yards and a portakabin at most e.g. Callington, Looe. The question is how many are actually incurring major overheads? There's the former First sites at Bodmin, Summercourt, Camborne, and the existing one at Liskeard? Now undoubtedly, there will be opportunities to rationalise the sites but it's been only four months since First upped and left. Perhaps they're letting the operations settle down and then look to do something? With setting up a load of new operations and sites, they probably had enough change to manage without doing that as well.

Now will their be carnage? We shall have to wait and see. There were all manner of dire predictions of what would happen on Feb 15th and they weren't realised.

I was specifically focusing on fleet condition and excluding the East Anglia operation given that was sold a while ago. I agree that Carousel is pretty scrappy, but it still doesn't have the consistently poor appearance of the GSW fleet. You should see some of the botched repairs - it's something you'd expect of a tatty independent on its last legs. And there's the legally required next stop announcements on post Oct 2014 buses. All you get is a screen that is either blank, showing adverts, or stuck on an incorrect route. It all gives the impression that there's no one really bothered about fleet presentation.

I too was focussing on fleet condition. East Anglia went only 8 months ago (seems a lot longer) and I'd say that Carousel DOES have equally consistently poor appearance - buses not just in "as acquired" liveries (e.g. Connector) but with a range of legacy local schemes (so very much like GCB/PCB). Perhaps not the amount of red gaffer tape but otherwise, there's a lot of bent panels, missing vinyls etc.

I'm not excusing them - I saw one of the 20 plates at Derriford a couple of months back and it was a shocker. It is certainly an area where they fall down; First were better but certainly standards had declined in their last years. Let me be absolutely clear - I am not saying that Go Cornwall Bus is some paragon of an operator. They certainly aren't and presentation has been an issue for as long as I can remember with the Plymouth operation - random livery changes, missing vinyls, etc. That is very much brought into sharp relief when you look along the coast and see the More, Southern Vectis, Bluestar and other GSC operations. It's an understandable frustration when you look at how two firms from the same group can be so poor. I would say Plymouth is actually looking better with its new fleet (hence the Oxford/Carousel comparison) though you wonder about the clean fish in a dirty pond analogy coming to pass and how they might look in a few months or years.

The NSA problem is a definite issue. Again, not wishing to defend GCB overly but it's a problem across the industry. I had an excursion out in Devon a few months ago - the only bus that had them working properly was a new PCB Electroliner. Four other vehicles (3 Stagecoach and 1 PCB) - nope. The best operator I've experienced since the regs changed last year... First West of England, who really have a grip on things. Have to say Stagecoach are pretty bad whether that's Devon or Nottinghamshire.

I most certainly do not look at First through rose-tinted spectacles. Even their 2019 operation was wanting in many ways. I'd have expected better of GoAhead though. Comparing current GoCornwall to 2025 First - I'd say GCB must be more sustainable given the lean service levels, but vehicle standards and service levels are worse. Overall it's a disappointment - so far.

I'm surprised you're surprised. I really didn't expect anything different.

They weren't going to replicate what First did in entirety (and not talking about the competitive services) and the issues on presentation have been longstanding. Also, they've shown little inclination for seasonal uplifts elsewhere other than a sole open top service round Plymouth Hoe. I was saying at the outset that I thought GCB were a functional operation and not to expect much change in that approach.

Now I know that it was their doing (in pushing FK out) but they had to source 40-50 additional vehicles, take on the staff, do the maths on what they could provide and the registrations, take the staff on and make sure the payroll worked, and do all the boring stuff that no one ever considers - taking on Camborne depot would mean sorting the utilities out, fuel deliveries, all the health and safety stuff, everything.

I'll be interested in putting this thread in a time capsule and revisiting it in a years' time. It'll be interesting to see where we are. I don't think the route network will be substantially different, but it would be good to see how the fleet looks in both presentation and age profile. It'll be interesting to see.

 

[Andyh82]

The difference compared to GSC is when they took over Bournemouth and Southampton operations, they made the right noises from the start, ‘bear with us, these are temporary buses, new buses and improvements or changes will come’ and sure enough they did. They also continued with Bournemouth’s open top service that Yellow Buses used to run, they could have drawn a line and axed it.

With Go South West they haven’t said any of this, it’s enthusiasts that are saying this, hoping that some of this will actually happen. As has been said I wouldn’t hold too much hope, GSW are not GSC, they are hardly ever innovative in their own Plymouth heartland.

What’s the chances in Summer 2027 it will still be the same basic service as being provided in 2026

 

[MotCO]

They weren't going to replicate what First did in entirety (and not talking about the competitive services) and the issues on presentation have been longstanding. Also, they've shown little inclination for seasonal uplifts elsewhere other than a sole open top service round Plymouth Hoe. I

Do we know why the presentation is poor? Is it down to a "don't care" management attitude, lack of money or lack of staff. (Or maybe all the technicians are busy trying to keep the elderly buses on the road and have no time to replace panels, repair displays etc.) Do you know which it is?

 

[farwest]

After First introduced their AI timetables, especially on the U1 they lost the plot and as a passenger I was pleased to see them give up and pull out.

Timetables still need tweaking and the 32 is a disaster on college days. Good thing there is a half hourly train service!!

The Falmouth train are noticeably busier.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

With Go South West they haven’t said any of this, it’s enthusiasts that are saying this, hoping that some of this will actually happen. As has been said I wouldn’t hold too much hope, GSW are not GSC, they are hardly ever innovative in their own Plymouth heartland.

Which is what I've been saying since they filled the gap from First's departure. They are a rather perfunctory operation but one that won the war.

What’s the chances in Summer 2027 it will still be the same basic service as being provided in 2026

Very possibly - no one knows.

Do we know why the presentation is poor? Is it down to a "don't care" management attitude, lack of money or lack of staff. (Or maybe all the technicians are busy trying to keep the elderly buses on the road and have no time to replace panels, repair displays etc.) Do you know which it is?

It seems to be cultural. The operation in Plymouth has been like it for several years.

 

[Goldfish62]

A couple were 19 seaters though the ex Regal ones were 23 seaters. However, the FK fleet was Sprinters and that is what Go Cornwall Bus replaced. They were 16 seaters so perhaps they can claim to have increased capacity?

None of the Solos were 19-seaters. Lowest were the ex-Regal ones with, from memory, 21 seats.

The Sprinters had 20 seats, not 16.

Now will their be carnage? We shall have to wait and see. There were all manner of dire predictions of what would happen on Feb 15th and they weren't realised.

Probably because some passengers have up using buses from February. I certainly know of some. There'll be more giving up if they can't boars buses during what is preducured to be a staycation summer.

I too was focussing on fleet condition. East Anglia went only 8 months ago (seems a lot longer) and I'd say that Carousel DOES have equally consistently poor appearance - buses not just in "as acquired" liveries (e.g. Connector) but with a range of legacy local schemes (so very much like GCB/PCB). Perhaps not the amount of red gaffer tape but otherwise, there's a lot of bent panels, missing vinyls etc.

I'm not excusing them - I saw one of the 20 plates at Derriford a couple of months back and it was a shocker. It is certainly an area where they fall down; First were better but certainly standards had declined in their last years. Let me be absolutely clear - I am not saying that Go Cornwall Bus is some paragon of an operator. They certainly aren't and presentation has been an issue for as long as I can remember with the Plymouth operation - random livery changes, missing vinyls, etc. That is very much brought into sharp relief when you look along the coast and see the More, Southern Vectis, Bluestar and other GSC operations. It's an understandable frustration when you look at how two firms from the same group can be so poor. I would say Plymouth is actually looking better with its new fleet (hence the Oxford/Carousel comparison) though you wonder about the clean fish in a dirty pond analogy coming to pass and how they might look in a few months or years.

Fair comment.

The NSA problem is a definite issue. Again, not wishing to defend GCB overly but it's a problem across the industry.

Again, I'm comparing with other GA OpCos. Even Carousel manage to have working NSAs on a reasonably consistent basis.

I'm surprised you're surprised. I really didn't expect anything different.

I'm disappointed rather than surprised.

I'll be interested in putting this thread in a time capsule and revisiting it in a years' time. It'll be interesting to see where we are. I don't think the route network will be substantially different, but it would be good to see how the fleet looks in both presentation and age profile. It'll be interesting to see.

Given there's an influx of 15-year old ex-London vehicles which have been converted to single door and some of which have had their seats retrimmed I certainly don't predict any fleet improvement by next year (albeit the 17-plate E400 Cities are apparently confirmed as staying in Cornwall). However, to be fair, with the supported network being retendered next year for a March 2028 start I wouldn't blame GA for not investing until the tender results are known. I don't even know if the 2020 influx of new vehicles to base dealer spec are leased and could therefore be sent back at the end of the current contracts.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Again, I'm comparing with other GA OpCos. Even Carousel manage to have working NSAs on a reasonably consistent basis.

Not in my experience. GSC very good - Carousel not good. Go North East is also somewhat inconsistent.

The Sprinters had 20 seats, not 16.

Ok - fair enough. I couldn't recall and BLOTW has them listed as 16 seats.

Given there's an influx of 15-year old ex-London vehicles which have been converted to single door and some of which have had their seats retrimmed I certainly don't predict any fleet improvement by next year (albeit the 17-plate E400 Cities are apparently confirmed as staying in Cornwall). However, to be fair, with the supported network being retendered next year for a March 2028 start I wouldn't blame GA for not investing until the tender results are known. I don't even know if the 2020 influx of new vehicles to base dealer spec are leased and could therefore be sent back at the end of the current contracts.

I could see those being used to replace most of the 06 plates, and then look at getting rid of the 2007/8 vintage ones in due course.

Don't know about leases - looking at the accts, looks like they have £1.5m of leases from that period as a liability. Oddly, that's increased to £4m now but I don't know how/why that's increased. Have they done a sale and lease back on a property? Are they now leasing vehicles from another part of the business? Dunno

 

[Goldfish62]

Do we know why the presentation is poor? Is it down to a "don't care" management attitude, lack of money or lack of staff. (Or maybe all the technicians are busy trying to keep the elderly buses on the road and have no time to replace panels, repair displays etc.) Do you know which it is?

My hunch is that it's a combination of all of the above!
I include management attitude because the MD is no shrinking violet. I guess he must think his scruffy fleet is OK!

Bodged repairs such as gaffer tape and crudely riveted metal patches suggest insufficient time or resources to do proper repairs.

Ok - fair enough. I couldn't recall and BLOTW has them listed as 16 seats.

The Sprinters were the long version that only Islesbus offer. First did get literally the largest new buses that would for into Mousehole. The equivalent isn't offered by EVM.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Sprinters were the long version that only Islesbus offer. First did get literally the largest new buses that would for into Mousehole. The equivalent isn't offered by EVM.

As I said, they're listed on Bus Lists on the Web as being 16 seaters. I did think that was slightly off - even the Stagecoach Sprinters are 17 seaters.

 

[Goldfish62]

Timetables still need tweaking and the 32 is a disaster on college days. Good thing there is a half hourly train service!!

I think that's why I'm particularly disappointed. The July changes include ones brought forward from September so it's likely now that we won't see any further changes for at least a year now.

You've mentioned the 32. Another area which I'd hoped they'd address is the 17/14/18 corridors. On the 14/17 on the common section between Lelant and St Ives in both directions and on the 17/18 between St Erth and Penzance in that direction the now-hourly buses run within 10 minutes of each other, when previously there were four buses an hour reasonably well-spaced. Looking at the timetables I don't think it's possibly to perfectly space the services, but certainly there's scope to improve on the current situation. However, it seems that's not happening. Also not happening is addressing the 85 minute gap in the 17 mid afternoon on weekdays.

The hourly 19 is a very welcome summer enhancement, but it's for five weeks only.

The Falmouth train are noticeably busier.

I bet the St Ives trains are as well, especially on Sundays when it's a half hourly train service (a couple of hour gaps if changing to/from Penzance) while the 17 is only every two hours.

 

[richard13]

There are always basic economic issues and Cornwall is not a good economic area. If you improve the quality of the buses, improve the frequency, lower the fares, how many extra passengers do you get to compensate for the extra cost? In Cornwall I expect that many residents only travel out of necessity, because optional travel requires spare cash, not for the bus fare, that's trivial, but the cost of the reason you are travelling - shopping, food and drink, entertainment, etc. Holiday makers may be optional users, but most have cars.

I was in Cornwall three times 2 years ago with a car, but the bus was useful for various reasons, but the experience wasn't always great. For example it doesn't help that the bus stop at Land's End is as far away as possible at the far end of the car park in the gravel with no shelter. The Mousehole minibuses were overloading and not fit for purpose. The Land's End Coaster kept breaking down, ...

The upcoming adjustments to the 32 / Truro College provision should be useful as will the 2 and 3 changing over at Helston town centre rather than Sainsbury's (out-station). The 26 replacing Eden journeys with Roche journeys should help locally. Cornwall Council spends about £12 million a year on Cornwall bus subsidies; will that continue? If it had to be all commercial would the Cornwall network go back to the negligible 1980's MAP project level (with population changes added in)?

 

[Andyh82]

Do we know why the presentation is poor? Is it down to a "don't care" management attitude, lack of money or lack of staff. (Or maybe all the technicians are busy trying to keep the elderly buses on the road and have no time to replace panels, repair displays etc.) Do you know which it is?

In terms of Cornwall it’s surely because buses spend most of their time out based, if a bus gets bashed about a bit in a country lane, getting it all the way over to Milehouse and getting a replacement all the way in the opposite direction is difficult, so all they can do is tape it back together in the meantime.

I was hoping they’d open Camborne as a proper full on Cornwall maintenance base, with its own Cornwall based allocation, but it doesn’t seem to have happened.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I was hoping they’d open Camborne as a proper full on Cornwall maintenance base, with its own Cornwall based allocation, but it doesn’t seem to have happened

It wouldn't surprise me if Go Ahead is waiting for the 2028 tenders before even considering opening Camborne (or anywhere else) as a maintenance base for Cornwall.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In terms of Cornwall it’s surely because buses spend most of their time out based, if a bus gets bashed about a bit in a country lane, getting it all the way over to Milehouse and getting a replacement all the way in the opposite direction is difficult, so all they can do is tape it back together in the meantime.

I was hoping they’d open Camborne as a proper full on Cornwall maintenance base, with its own Cornwall based allocation, but it doesn’t seem to have happened.

That's a fair point in that they didn't have a local base to do full bodywork and heavy maintenance with vehicles cycling through Milehouse. When they took on Truro and Camborne premises, did they not take on the maintenance staff/facilities?

 

[Goldfish62]

That's a fair point in that they didn't have a local base to do full bodywork and heavy maintenance with vehicles cycling through Milehouse. When they took on Truro and Camborne premises, did they not take on the maintenance staff/facilities?

There's certainly some level of maintenance being done at Camborne. I'd assumed that it would become the full maintenance centre for Cornwall, but it doesn't seem to be the case given that buses still cycle through Milehouse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2026 ==

It wouldn't surprise me if Go Ahead is waiting for the 2028 tenders before even considering opening Camborne (or anywhere else) as a maintenance base for Cornwall.

They bought it outright from First principally to support their commercial operations so it's not suddenly going to close if they lose a lot of the supported work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2026 ==

There are always basic economic issues and Cornwall is not a good economic area. If you improve the quality of the buses, improve the frequency, lower the fares, how many extra passengers do you get to compensate for the extra cost?

You can say that for anywhere.

In Cornwall I expect that many residents only travel out of necessity, because optional travel requires spare cash, not for the bus fare, that's trivial, but the cost of the reason you are travelling - shopping, food and drink, entertainment, etc. Holiday makers may be optional users, but most have cars.

Again, you can say that for anywhere.

The DfT has cited an increase in bus passenger numbers in Cornwall since 2019 so someone be using them! They certainly were at Penzance bus station last week!

The Land's End Coaster kept breaking down, ...

You'll be pleased to know that breakdowns have continued on the 1/1A, a popular spot for buses coming to grief being the harpin bend near Treen!

The upcoming adjustments to the 32 / Truro College provision should be useful as will the 2 and 3 changing over at Helston town centre rather than Sainsbury's (out-station). The 26 replacing Eden journeys with Roche journeys should help locally.

Agree with all that.

Cornwall Council spends about £12 million a year on Cornwall bus subsidies; will that continue? If it had to be all commercial would the Cornwall network go back to the negligible 1980's MAP project level (with population changes added in)?

If the council decides to commit political suicide and withdraw support from all bus services it would have to return the £20.3m BSIP settlement it has been awarded for 2026-2029 and it would be pouring money down the drain on the current rebuilding and enlargening of Penzance depot, which is being undertaken to support the tendered network, with the potential for it to become a multi-operator site. Then there's Truro P&R, with brand new EVs being introduced imminently. Plus the enhanced partnership scheme would have to end.

But of course the council isn't going to stop support for bus services. Market engagement for the forthcoming tender round started in December 2025 and Cornwall has also been selected as one of the pilot areas to investigate the potential for rural franchising.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2026 ==

it doesn't help that the bus stop at Land's End is as far away as possible at the far end of the car park in the gravel with no shelter.

I believe that's all due to the obstructive attitude of the landowner. It would of course be much better if the stop was located roughly where it was before Land's End became a vulgar theme park.

 

[YorkRailFan]

They bought it outright from First principally to support their commercial operations so it's not suddenly going to close if they lose a lot of the supported work.

Of course, but if they lose a lot of their supported work then rotating buses through Milehouse looks more viable for the remaining operations than opening a full maintenance base in Cambourne. If Go Ahead wins big in 2028, they may well open a full maintenance base in Cornwall, If they don't, then I'd expect buses to continue to cycle through Milehouse.

 

[Goldfish62]

Of course, but if they lose a lot of their supported work then rotating buses through Milehouse looks more viable for the remaining operations than opening a full maintenance base in Cambourne. If Go Ahead wins big in 2028, they may well open a full maintenance base in Cornwall, If they don't, then I'd expect buses to continue to cycle through Milehouse.

Fair comment.

Similarly, I presume that Truro is no longer an MOT centre, but perhaps someone can confirm?

 

[richard13]

The economic issues I mentioned earlier should be taken in the context that Cornwall is one of the poorest areas not only in the UK, but Europe. Its median income is almost 20% less than that of the UK and many earn less than a living wage. However it also has high costs due to Tourism - house prices are high due to 2nd homes and holiday rentals, ... . Pre-Brexit Cornwall received EU poverty grants. I knew a manager involved with that and her comment was that it didn't matter what the size of the grant, because within months it had been spent with no noticeable change. Thus the average Cornish resident does not have spare money for optional trips out, by bus or otherwise.

Buses in Cornwall will probably continue to receive grants, but the size of them will depend on the generosity of the UK tax payer. If Andy Burnham moves the DfT grants admin to Manchester then it will be even more remote than from London. Franchising is no magic pot of money; Cornwall already has most of the benefits of a franchise.

 

[Express380]

Agree with all that.

The upcoming adjustments to the 32 / Truro College provision should be useful

How will this be useful sorry? There already buses to the college as it is. All this does is remove non college users the option to use a normally public route as previously mentioned this particularly affects the evening runs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2026 ==

Also if you take the route 55 for example, the last service from Liskeard to Bodmin is 15:55 between two large sized towns there is no way this can be justified, whilst the reasons for Cornwall's more sparce service can be forgiven examples like this really shouldn't.

The train option takes you to Bodmin Parkway for another bus which isn't exactly a fair alternative.

 

[JKP]

How will this be useful sorry? There already buses to the college as it is. All this does is remove non college users the option to use a normally public route as previously mentioned this particularly affects the evening runs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2026 ==

Also if you take the route 55 for example, the last service from Liskeard to Bodmin is 15:55 between two large sized towns there is no way this can be justified, whilst the reasons for Cornwall's more sparce service can be forgiven examples like this really shouldn't.

The train option takes you to Bodmin Parkway for another bus which isn't exactly a fair alternative.

Neither Bodmin nor Liskeard are particularly large towns. Historically bus services between the two were always very thin. Other than Dobwalls there are no settlements and Trago Mills has always been car centric.

 

[Goldfish62]

The economic issues I mentioned earlier should be taken in the context that Cornwall is one of the poorest areas not only in the UK, but Europe. Its median income is almost 20% less than that of the UK and many earn less than a living wage. However it also has high costs due to Tourism - house prices are high due to 2nd homes and holiday rentals, ... . Pre-Brexit Cornwall received EU poverty grants. I knew a manager involved with that and her comment was that it didn't matter what the size of the grant, because within months it had been spent with no noticeable change. Thus the average Cornish resident does not have spare money for optional trips out, by bus or otherwise.

Coming from a relatively poor family in Cornwall I'm very much of the levels of deprivation, but I think it's beyond credibility to claim that the average Cornish resident has no disposable income for any optional trips. That 85% of households in Cornwall have access to at least one car, significantly higher than the national average, is more to the point.

Franchising is no magic pot of money; Cornwall already has most of the benefits of a franchise.

Yes, so much so that I've come across people who think it's already franchised. But we're getting off-topic so I'll shut up now.