Ffestiniog Round Robin advice, please!

[Ben Rhydding]

I hold a ticket from Manchester Stations to beyond Chester Valid via any permitted route. It is not operator specific. It is valid from Victoria. If anybody wants to prove otherwise, they must look for evidence in the definition of Manchester Stations or permitted routes.

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[Belperpete]

How do you explain the inclusion of Liverpool to Bidston, Warrington to Crewe and Stockport to Chester?

Probably they haven't thought to update the map.

 

[anothertyke]

I would say that the ticket wasn't valid from Manchester Victoria (even though it says "Manchester Stations") as the TfW map doesn't show Victoria.

Ffestiniog Round Robin | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2026-03/Ffestiniog-Round-Robin-V3_ENG-2026.pdf (newer map from link above substituted)

I don't read the TfW website as restricting travel from Manchester to TfW trains but it does say (from Manchester etc.) "using designated geographical routes" which I take as being the dotted lines

That was my initial thought.Whether a ticket inspector on the Leeds-Chester run would know that Manchester Stations didn't actually mean Manchester Stations on a ticket they've never seen before is another matter! I think Ben R could be forgiven for assuming Man Stations includes Man Vic.

My interpretation is that on the main circuit, Chester to Chester or Shrewsbury to Shrewsbury, it is TfW only, but on the dotted connecting lines it is any train on those routes. I wonder if that map was drawn before the Leeds-Chester trains started.

 

[Belperpete]

I hold a ticket from Manchester Stations to beyond Chester Valid via any permitted route. It is not operator specific. It is valid from Victoria. If anybody wants to prove otherwise, they must look for evidence in the definition of Manchester Stations or permitted routes.

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I would agree that you could argue that it is valid from Victoria, but only via any route permitted by that ticket.

I have no need to prove anything, as I am not travelling. It will be up to you on the day to prove that you are travelling via a route permitted by that ticket, if confronted by a member of staff who says otherwise. So far you have not given anything that demonstrates the ticket is valid on the route you wish to travel on.

 

[TrainTraveler]

I may have to have another go at this but starting from the Porthmadog end this time. It won't start in Manchester however.

 

[Belperpete]

My interpretation is that on the main circuit, Chester to Chester or Shrewsbury to Shrewsbury, it is TfW only, but on the dotted connecting lines it is any train on those routes.

Except that the use exactly the same wording to qualify services on the connecting lines as they do for the core circuit: "...... on the Transport for Wales network".

I wonder if that map was drawn before the Leeds-Chester trains started.

And before Chester to Liverpool was electrified and transferred to Merseyrail. I doubt that they sell enough round robin tickets to justify the expense of updating the artwork. It gets barely any publicity these days, I can't remember the last time I saw a poster for it.

 

[Watershed]

Probably they haven't thought to update the map.

TfW have never operated on those routes. It sounds like you are just guessing.

 

[Belperpete]

How do you explain the inclusion of Liverpool to Bidston, Warrington to Crewe and Stockport to Chester?

So how do you explain them specifically stating that tickets on those routes only being valid on the Transport for Wales network?

There could be an argument that for those specific routes that there is sufficient ambiguity to claim validity on other operators services. But the map clearly does not show Manchester Victoria as a valid route.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

My purpose in post 110 was to confirm that the ticket can be purchased at any national rail station with a ticket office. But only if you follow the advice in post 2. A clerk searching amongst rovers and rangers will draw a blank. The same link in post 2 confirms "any operator`s connecting service".

I also drew attention to the form which the ticket takes. It is a two part return from Manchester Stations to a destination called Ffestiniog Round Robin valid by any permitted route. It is issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[Belperpete]

My purpose in post 110 was to confirm that the ticket can be purchased at any national rail station with a ticket office. But only if you follow the advice in post 2. A clerk searching amongst rovers and rangers will draw a blank.

Which only goes to show how well it is being promoted. Like the old Hitchikers reference, on public display in a locked filing cabinet in an abandoned office guarded by tigers.....

The same link in post 2 confirms "any operator`s connecting service".

That link is to a site with no official validity. It also specifically shows the ticket as only being valid on routes from Piccadilly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2026 ==

I also drew attention to the form which the ticket takes. It is a two part return from Manchester Stations to a destination called Ffestiniog Round Robin valid by any permitted route. It is issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

But what you have failed to show is that a rail route direct from Manchester Victoria is a permitted route.

 

[Djgr]

That was my initial thought.Whether a ticket inspector on the Leeds-Chester run would know that Manchester Stations didn't actually mean Manchester Stations on a ticket they've never seen before is another matter! I think Ben R could be forgiven for assuming Man Stations includes Man Vic.

My interpretation is that on the main circuit, Chester to Chester or Shrewsbury to Shrewsbury, it is TfW only, but on the dotted connecting lines it is any train on those routes. I wonder if that map was drawn before the Leeds-Chester trains started.

That's my take as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2026 ==

And before Chester to Liverpool was electrified and transferred to Merseyrail. I doubt that they sell enough round robin tickets to justify the expense of updating the artwork. It gets barely any publicity these days, I can't remember the last time I saw a poster for it.

If that were the case the artwork would show the need to change at Hooton or before that Rock Ferry.

To my knowledge, no direct Chester to Liverpool services via the Wirral ever operated prior to electrification.

 

[Belperpete]

That's my take as well.

Again, if that is the case, why have they given the connecting services exactly the same qualification as the core services? That you have to be travelling on the TfW network.

I suspect that so few of these tickets are sold that guards and RPIs are unlikely to have ever heard of them. If you can show the TfW map that shows you are on a valid route, then you should be okay. However, if you are on a route not shown on the map, such as from Manchester Victoria, you could have a hard time justifying why it is a valid route.

 

[blimmo]

Clearly the ticket isn't valid anywhere since as we know the NRCoT specifies that valid routes are only those that are returned by a journey planner and journey planners don't have "Ffestiniog Round Robin" as a destination.

 

[Djgr]

Again, if that is the case, why have they given the connecting services exactly the same qualification as the core services? That you have to be travelling on the TfW network.

I suspect that so few of these tickets are sold that guards and RPIs are unlikely to have ever heard of them. If you can show the TfW map that shows you are on a valid route, then you should be okay. However, if you are on a route not shown on the map, such as from Manchester Victoria, you could have a hard time justifying why it is a valid route.

I think it is clumsily worded. On the website it says "using designated geographical routes", which is better (but not perfect).

It has to be valid on some non TfW services, as otherwise you wouldn't be able to use the ticket from certain advertised stations e.g. Hooton.

As far as Manchester Victoria is concerned, it probably hasn't occurred to them that people would want to use services from there, given the frequent TfW service out of Piccadilly.

 

[matt]

Clearly the ticket isn't valid anywhere since as we know the NRCoT specifies that valid routes are only those that are returned by a journey planner and journey planners don't have "Ffestiniog Round Robin" as a destination.

That was the problem when I tried to buy it at New Street as the avant ticket office could not find a itinerary. They managed to sell it eventually without an itinerary after I told them the journey was possible.

 

[Krokodil]

So how do you explain them specifically stating that tickets on those routes only being valid on the Transport for Wales network?

Sloppy writing. NRE (the definitive source) doesn't use the word "network" at all. NRE does specifically state "on Transport for Wales services". However as it says that the ticket is available from Birkenhead (from where TfW has never operated services), not to mention Runcorn and Liverpool (from where TfW has only recently started operating and the ticket was certainly valid from the latter beforehand) then clearly it doesn't mean "only valid on TfW services".

I very much doubt that anyone is going to have any grief if they use a Northern or Avanti service.

As far as Manchester Victoria is concerned, it probably hasn't occurred to them that people would want to use services from there, given the frequent TfW service out of Piccadilly.

More likely it didn't occur to them because the service is only a few years old and they've never been north of Abergavenny anyway.

 

[gray1404]

I remember purchasing one of these tickets from Liverpool a good few years ago before the recent transport for Wales service to Chester even existed. It was impossible to make the entire journey just on Transport for Wales services (or should I say Arriva Trains Wales back then).

 

[Belperpete]

There is now an interesting alternative to the Round Robin. It is possible to buy Shrewsbury to Porthmadog "any permitted route" returns with itineraries via Chester and Blaenau. At £30.10, as compared to £46.30 for the Round Robin. Obviously it doesn't include the Ffestiniog fare, but it may be worth considering for those who get free or reduced fare travel on the Ffestiniog (e.g. HRA privilege pass holders).

If you use the right ticket retailer, you can even get Shrewsbury to Porthmadog returns with itineraries via Bangor. So could be useful for those considering doing a Welsh Highland version of the Round Robin.

 

[alastair]

There is now an interesting alternative to the Round Robin. It is possible to buy Shrewsbury to Porthmadog "any permitted route" returns with itineraries via Chester and Blaenau. At £30.10, as compared to £46.30 for the Round Robin. Obviously it doesn't include the Ffestiniog fare, but it may be worth considering for those who get free or reduced fare travel on the Ffestiniog (e.g. HRA privilege pass holders).

If you use the right ticket retailer, you can even get Shrewsbury to Porthmadog returns with itineraries via Bangor. So could be useful for those considering doing a Welsh Highland version of the Round Robin.

Thanks for highlighting this. I was recently looking at fares from Totnes to Porthmadog and was somewhat surprised to be offered a fare via Blaenau with a bus connection to Porthmadog, but this explains it! I hope the driver of the Blaenau/Porthmadog bus has been briefed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for highlighting this. I was recently looking at fares from Totnes to Porthmadog and was somewhat surprised to be offered a fare via Blaenau with a bus connection to Porthmadog, but this explains it! I hope the driver of the Blaenau/Porthmadog bus has been briefed.

I don't think (but could be wrong) that those tickets are actually valid on the bus - it's an artifact of the Trawscymru buses being entered in the timetable as if they were rail replacements. You got the same thing with stuff like the Oxford-Cambridge X5 when that was in the rail timetable. If it's sold then you could certainly do it on that ticket based on contractual right to the itinerary sold, but you'd probably have to pay the bus fare.

 

[alastair]

I don't think (but could be wrong) that those tickets are actually valid on the bus - it's an artifact of the Trawscymru buses being entered in the timetable as if they were rail replacements. You got the same thing with stuff like the Oxford-Cambridge X5 when that was in the rail timetable. If it's sold then you could certainly do it on that ticket based on contractual right to the itinerary sold, but you'd probably have to pay the bus fare.

Ah thanks, understood, it did seem a bit unlikely that it would be accepted on the bus.

 

[Krokodil]

I don't think (but could be wrong) that those tickets are actually valid on the bus - it's an artifact of the Trawscymru buses being entered in the timetable as if they were rail replacements. You got the same thing with stuff like the Oxford-Cambridge X5 when that was in the rail timetable. If it's sold then you could certainly do it on that ticket based on contractual right to the itinerary sold, but you'd probably have to pay the bus fare.

I've played around a bit. The only routes listed on the website as having proper through tickets are the T1, T2 and T6.

The T10 has bus fares entered into the NRE system for one-mode journeys only. Therefore if you search for Bangor to Betws you'll be offered either bus or Any Permitted tickets depending on your itinerary. There is no Holyhead to Capel Curig fare, therefore NRE will find you a combination of tickets (Holyhead-Bangor, Bangor-Capel Curig) to use. If you book Holyhead-Betws however, there is already a through fare (the existing Any Permitted one) so it will offer that - as there's a through fare it won't look to see if it can split it.

The T22 doesn't have bus fares entered into the system. Therefore if travelling between two railway stations with the bus, you'll be offered whatever the rail fare is, including some Advance tickets on Shrewsbury-Porthmadog, but no quota has been allocated for Blaenau-Porthmadog (£61 it is then).

However if you try and go to somewhere that is not a railway station (Penygroes) then the T22 will offer you no fare, only the T2 can do so.

Final bit of madness is that the NRE timings for the T2 don't include Porthmadog or Minffordd so trying to use it to go from Bangor to a destination on the Cambrian will force you to route via Machynlleth because these two opportunities to change between train and bus don't exist as far as railway timetable is concerned.

I applaud what TfW is trying to achieve here - multimodal ticketing and timetabling should be the future - but they've clearly employed Arthur Job to do it. What a mess they've made, both from Retail Pricing and Train Planning.

It was even worse to begin with. You'd look at the platform indicator at Betws-y-Coed as a train approached, and it would say "Bus Station". You'd have no clue which bus station the train was supposed to be going to. The destination was later amended to "Corwen Bus Station", but there is still no way of telling until it's too late that the imminent train isn't going to Corwen (as the sign would have you believe), if you want Corwen you should go outside.

 

[MrJeeves]

I applaud what TfW is trying to achieve here - multimodal ticketing and timetabling should be the future - but they've clearly employed Arthur Job to do it. What a mess they've made, both from Retail Pricing and Train Planning.

The issue is that the fares data doesn't support a concept for this.

I've told RDG a solution which can be used to fix this, but noone wishes to implement changes to data schemas!

What you need is some data which links a list of stations to ticket route codes to say "if you go through this location, you must use a ticket with one of these routes or it isn't valid". That data would be consulted for every journey, whether it's shortest route or not.

This would also fix a number of historic issues with Heathrow Buses, too, where you can get itineraries which obviously shouldn't be valid but are because of the shorter than the shortest route by rail rule.

There's absolutely nothing a pricing manager can do here. Well, except adding distance data for some locations on the bus route with 9999 miles or something silly!

 

[Krokodil]

There's absolutely nothing a pricing manager can do here.

They could add prices for the missing flows, at the very least just for the captive journeys. And add the various bus destinations (Corwen etc.) into suitable clusters so that through tickets from faraway origins will exist.