Hint: the people who have to suffer the construction aren't in Milton Keynes.Getting more frequent services because your local line isn't full of trains whipping past isn't a benefit?
Hint: the people who have to suffer the construction aren't in Milton Keynes.Getting more frequent services because your local line isn't full of trains whipping past isn't a benefit?
These benefits don’t exist south of Birmingham because the people affected by the construction don’t live on the west coast or midland mainlines.
Are those stations not on the WCML?Except the line doesn’t go anywhere near Milton Keynes and Luton.
West Ruislip, Wendover, Aylesbury, Buckingham, Brackley and Kenilworth aren’t on the West Coast mainline, no.Are those stations not on the WCML?
You were responding toWest Ruislip, Wendover, Aylesbury, Buckingham, Brackley and Kenilworth aren’t on the West Coast mainline, no.
Or you could just have all trains running fast from OOC to (at least) Birmingham Interchange and the people of Milton Keynes and Luton can continue using conventional services.
I responded to two points, firstly to say that a respectable share of customers weren’t going to London from larger places on the mainlines and secondly to say that HS2 didn’t go anywhere near Milton Keynes or Luton.You were responding to
The "high speed metro" someone was proposing (every other gate post all the way to Edinburgh) would have done.Except the line doesn’t go anywhere near Milton Keynes and Luton.
They will be able to make do with all of the newly-vacant seats on the residual service then. No more through passengers to do battle with.40% of Luton trips are to London and 60% of Milton Keynes ones are.
It’s hardly overwhelming and the non London ones are cheaper to provide.
Not really particularly relevant though given they aren’t affected by the HS2 construction.They will be able to make do with all of the newly-vacant seats on the residual service then. No more through passengers to do battle with.
Aylesbury has a population of 90k. There's absolutely no justification for adding a stop on HS2 for them. No one serious is arguing for that.This sort of not caring about anyone outside the big cities is why people in small northern towns are protest voting for literal nazis like Restore. So if we want to stop that it would be helpful for people to have looked at a map before saying additional HS2 stations aren’t desirable.
I know lets build lots of motorways instead and put in junctions every mile or so.Because the people who have to suffer the construction don’t get the benefits.
EDIT: It isn’t the only cost driver as the gold plating for speed definitely doesn’t help but it is a cost driver.
That is why there are no stations on HS2 between Old Oak Common and Birmingham Interchange.I responded to two points, firstly to say that a respectable share of customers weren’t going to London from larger places on the mainlines and secondly to say that HS2 didn’t go anywhere near Milton Keynes or Luton.
The only way to get round this would be to not bother building HS2 and let the people living along the WCML suffer a poorer and poorer service as demand for major cities continues to rise. I think the designers did look at a map to ensure their decision to omit intermediate stops was fine.This sort of not caring about anyone outside the big cities is why people in small northern towns are protest voting for literal nazis like Restore. So if we want to stop that it would be helpful for people to have looked at a map before saying additional HS2 stations aren’t desirable.
I certainly agree that Aylesbury should be connected to East West Rail.Aylesbury has a population of 90k. There's absolutely no justification for adding a stop on HS2 for them. No one serious is arguing for that.
If they want to argue (as I believe one MP did at the recent debate) that Aylesbury should be connected to EWR (something that was approved but the funding later pulled) then I'm all in favour.
I certainly agree that Aylesbury should be connected to East West Rail.
It is stupid that this had the funding pulled.
The "high speed metro" someone was proposing (every other gate post all the way to Edinburgh) would have done.
They will be able to make do with all of the newly-vacant seats on the residual service then. No more through passengers to do battle with.
| Origin / Destination | London | Luton | M. Keynes | Northamp. | Leicester | Nottingh. | Sheffield | Leeds | York | Middl. | Newc. |
| London | — | 23m / 10m | 32m / 20m | 46m / 29m | 65m / 41m | 94m / 51m | 120m / 64m | 133m / 75m | 112m / 84m | 2h35 / 1h41 | 2h50 / 1h53 |
| Luton | 18.5M | — | 65m / 8m | 60m / 16m | 55m / 28m | 1h35 / 38m | 2h05 / 51m | 2h25 / 62m | 2h40 / 71m | 3h40 / 1h28 | 3h25 / 1h41 |
| Milton Keynes | 14.2M | 4.8M | — | 15m / 7m | 1h40 / 19m | 2h00 / 29m | 2h10 / 42m | 2h20 / 53m | 2h30 / 62m | 3h50 / 1h20 | 3h20 / 1h32 |
| Northampton | 8.1M | 2.6M | 3.9M | — | 60m / 11m | 1h30 / 21m | 2h15 / 34m | 2h40 / 45m | 2h55 / 54m | 4h10 / 1h11 | 3h45 / 1h24 |
| Leicester | 9.5M | 2.1M | 3.2M | 3.5M | — | 22m / 8m | 55m / 21m | 1h50 / 32m | 1h55 / 42m | 3h00 / 1h00 | 2h50 / 1h12 |
| Nottingham | 9.2M | 1.8M | 2.5M | 2.4M | 5.1M | — | 50m / 11m | 1h25 / 23m | 1h45 / 32m | 3h10 / 50m | 2h45 / 1h03 |
| Sheffield | 7.4M | 1.2M | 1.6M | 1.5M | 2.9M | 4.6M | — | 40m / 10m | 50m / 19m | 2h10 / 37m | 1h50 / 49m |
| Leeds | 11.8M | 1.5M | 1.9M | 1.7M | 3.4M | 4.9M | 8.2M | — | 22m / 8m | 1h25 / 26m | 1h20 / 38m |
| York | 4.2M | 550k | 680k | 610k | 1.1M | 1.4M | 2.1M | 4.5M | — | 55m / 15m | 55m / 27m |
| Middlesbrough | 2.1M | 410k | 490k | 380k | 750k | 980k | 1.5M | 2.9M | 1.8M | — | 60m / 12m |
| Newcastle | 6.5M | 850k | 950k | 810k | 1.4M | 1.8M | 2.4M | 4.6M | 3.1M | 3.8M | — |
| Total | 91.5M | 34.3M | 34.2M | 25.5M | 32.9M | 34.6M | 33.4M | 45.4M | 20.0M | 15.1M | 26.2M |
Metro, long distance, rules of physics. Pick two. You have chosen the first two, HS2 picks the latter two.Here is what you are missing, the point of the metro is not to optimise the long distance journeys it is to massively interconnect the country whilst also providing adequate long distance connectivity.
While I think the super metro might be a bit far-fetched, I do think Northampton should be reconnected to Leicester and Nottingham etc, which is feasible, if not very simple. Especially once the southern end of the WCML has some spare capacity.Here is what you are missing, the point of the metro is not to optimise the long distance journeys it is to massively interconnect the country whilst also providing adequate long distance connectivity.
Origin / Destination London Luton M. Keynes Northamp. Leicester Nottingh. Sheffield Leeds York Middl. Newc. Northampton 8.1M 2.6M 3.9M — 60m / 11m 1h30 / 21m 2h15 / 34m 2h40 / 45m 2h55 / 54m 4h10 / 1h11 3h45 / 1h24
Metro, long distance, rules of physics. Pick two. You have chosen the first two, HS2 picks the latter two.
Yes, but not trying to do all three on the same line!I'd say it picked all three, since the metro is what you'd run on the sections of wcml, mml and ecml being bypassed.
I think it's that Mark Wild wants to derisk the delivery but minimising overlap between civils and rail systems.Away from HSMetro for a second, I'm confused as to why they need to wait until 2029 or later (2029 is if the weather is ok for groundworks over the next few summers) to start laying the rails. Looking at the civils works in your area list on the HS2 site, they seem to almost all finish in 2026 or 2027 - is there another stage that needs to take place between civils finishing and laying the rails?
Assuming that:Away from HSMetro for a second, I'm confused as to why they need to wait until 2029 or later (2029 is if the weather is ok for groundworks over the next few summers) to start laying the rails. Looking at the civils works in your area list on the HS2 site, they seem to almost all finish in 2026 or 2027 - is there another stage that needs to take place between civils finishing and laying the rails?
Metro, long distance, rules of physics. Pick two. You have chosen the first two, HS2 picks the latter two.
| Colour | Duration | Percentage |
| Light Green | 8-25 minutes | 48% |
| Olive Green | 25-60 minutes | 31% |
| Yellow | 60-90 minutes | 15% |
| Red | 90-113 minutes | 5% |

Go on what rules of physics does a high speed metro disobey?
1: Accelerations are the same as a tube train they just go on for longer, they are less vigorous than on buses and are about equivalent to climbing a wheelchair ramp. It's rate of onset of acceleration that matters more than absolute g force pulled.
2: The acceleration is well within the capability of a battery electric vehicle and current BEVs are fitted with drive trains that can deliver super car acceleration for about £30k
3: Line speed is the same as HS2, the batteries mean that current draw would be less peaky per train
4: We would be using eddy current brakes so we can stop the trains at ~2ms-2 in an emergency regardless of traction available
It seems that most the objections are based on ether some assumption that some passengers would not be able to handle the acceleration or that having an interior more like a Thameslink train would not be acceptable for long distance travellers. Neither of these are physics based and neither are really supportable.
I have colour coded the chart so you can visually see what the passenger make up is:
Colour Duration Percentage Light Green 8-25 minutes 48% Olive Green 25-60 minutes 31% Yellow 60-90 minutes 15% Red 90-113 minutes 5%
So what we can see is that a metro type interior is actually much more suitable for this sort of train, no need for reservations, people travelling a long way will just take seats when people get off at the next stop after they board. Half of people are on the train are there for less than 25 minutes.
Just out of interest the total number of passenger km on this service is 86 billion, which compares to 65 billion for the entire national rail service today. That is for 520km of twin track lines and 11 stations, even if this cost £150bn to build and the passenger numbers were halved it would be incredibly profitable. I should also add that while the gravity model is likely a little optimistic in practice we'd likely build or upgrade a fair number of other lines to a similar standard so we would see plenty of additional interchange passengers on the line which are not counted in these flows.
View attachment 205431
Your article on HS2’s consultancy spending (Report, May 26) invites a deeper question. The Katha Upanishad warns: “Like the blind led by the blind, fools go hither and thither.” Matthew said both shall fall into the ditch. Pieter Bruegel painted them. HS2 is Britain’s ditch. But were all truly blind, or did some keep their eyes wide open?
HS2’s original £37.5bn estimate was set before meaningful design. Today, the Y-shaped network is gone. What remains is a single line to Birmingham, costing up to £103bn with an uncertain opening date. The mistake was legal. Unlike the 2012 London Olympics — designated as an overriding national interest with a single permitting authority — HS2 was sent through ordinary parliamentary and legal processes. Tens of thousands of stakeholders gained enforceable rights to object. Each had a de facto veto.
This created an inescapable trap. Every concession added unmeasurable cost, making honest forecasting impossible. Into this vacuum stepped consultants and legal advisers. They sold collaborative processes, more governance, more cost controls and forecasting, more flexible contracts. None worked: HS2’s problem was legal and political, not managerial. No system reconciles a fixed budget with an open-ended obligation to satisfy thousands of objectors. Consultants sold solutions to problems they had no power to fix.
And contractors? In a project defined by uncertainty, the only certain outcome was their profitability. Undefined scope turns flexible contracts into open invitations.
We rightly should not silence stakeholders. But without legal reform, a constrained government cannot spend its way to solutions — only to more HS2s and profits for those selling the blindness. The parable ends in a ditch, and we are falling. The question is whether enough of us, seeing clearly, will stop walking.
Nuno Gil
Professor of New Infrastructure Development, Alliance Manchester Business School, Manchester, UK
I think I agree with the thrust of the letter - the £37.5Bn budget must've been set long before the design was mature/frozen enough to warrant the certainty that's been attached to it.Letter: HS2 consultants are blindly leading the UK into a ditch https://share.google/E1dkXVzubaRDpaN6o
Heidi, a 51 year old woman from Swindon South is a vulnerable Government minister in charge of Multi-billion pound HS2 Ltd. She was mis-sold "consultancy" by a couple of burly men, who - when challenged by TV's Matt Allwright - covered their faces, assaulted the camera crew and sped away in a white Ford Transit. Do you know them? Have you seen them? Please call.
I think I agree with the thrust of the letter - the £37.5Bn budget must've been set long before the design was mature/frozen enough to warrant the certainty that's been attached to it.
The serious point I'm making is that if consultants were doing this, it's actually reflecting that HS2 Ltd/DfT were not competent clients who understood which things consultants can and can't fix.
I don't see what issues would prevent us having conventional wheeled trains with that level of performance, we are talking relatively tame acceleration compared to a BEV vehicle. We might struggle with battery life which might force us to initially have larger batteries and slightly overweight trains but given the general progress of the area that would be corrected at the first battery change.Even if battery electric trains struggle to deliver the performance @Technologist proposes, a track based linear synchronous motor (like those proposed for maglevs) certainly can deliver that performance.
If HS2 haven't got a grip by Spring 2027 not sure they ever willDfT and HS2 Ltd expect to complete the reset in spring 2027, but it is essential that they ensure the programme is fully on a stable footing before the reset is complete. DfT and HS2 Ltd should review how realistic the timetable is in autumn 2026 to complete remaining work and, if necessary, revise the timetable to provide them with the additional time needed to complete the reset.
Specifically reinforcing what Chris Gibb was promoting by sayingWhen deciding on the HS2 train fleet and how it will integrate with the wider rail network, DfT should ensure that it aligns with the future operation of the rail network as a whole and ensure sufficient seat capacity to maximise overall benefits.
3.9 HS2 Ltd awarded a contract for trains in 2021. The cancellation of Phase 2 in 2023 means that trains will run on the existing railway north of Birmingham. However, the stations on the existing West Coast Main Line railway are smaller than the HS2 stations that were planned. Therefore, the platforms are too small to accommodate the HS2 trains running with two 200-metre units as was originally planned. If HS2 trains operate as a single 200-metre unit, they would carry fewer passengers than the trains which currently run on the West Coast Main Line. In addition, the new trains will not be able to go as fast as the current Pendolino trains on certain sections of the track. A reduction in the length of the trains, and in turn seat capacity, will impact on the programme’s benefits and the wider rail network.
3.10 HS2 Ltd and DfT are now looking at options for including longer trains in the fleet. They expect to make a final decision on the number and length of units needed by 2028, to coincide with wider DfT decisions on trains for the whole of the West Coast Main Line. They have assessed that agreeing any change in train length by 2028 would allow the supply chain to adjust and deliver trains when they are needed. In the meantime, they are reviewing how this and recent scope changes (for example, removal of automatic train operation), impact the current contract and the next steps they need to take as part of the commercial reset.
In the grander scheme of HS2 its a small amount but its still £153m that has to come from DfTs budget that cant be spent on something else.The reset programme began in January 2025, and HS2 Ltd expects to complete it in spring 2027. HS2 Ltd estimates it will spend £153 million on the reset (in nominal prices), having spent £101 million by the end of March 2026. HS2 Ltd uses additional resources to conduct the reset alongside continued delivery of the programme.