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I'm very interested to have just found out, according to the Thameslink website that on my route, Cambridge to Kings Cross the rear first class cabin is always declassified.
I didn't realise this.
I presume, without further ado, I'm OK to use this carriage with a standard ticket when available?
I realise it is only the rear and not the front.
Is there always a rear first class carriage or is it only on certain trains?
I must admit that I don't understand why the signage isn't a lot clearer on this. Putting clear stickers on the entrance to the area would really help, particularly when one encounters a poorly trained RPI who doesn't understand the rule - a PF appeal would succeed, but nobody should have to do that and I have heard of it happening.
In 700s with declassified first, the in train display boards will either say (rotating through the rest of the displays such as next stop etc) the area is for first class ticket holders only or is declassified.
The station boards will also say where first class is on the train (i.e. at the front or not at all)
Yes. I have seen some recent vague doubt over this on this forum on this issue and whether it is explicitly stated anywhere, but it's beyond reasonable doubt, to me. I have passed every ticket check I have ever had in such situations (I travel from a station only served by GN), station departure boards state First Class at the front, the PIS on the train states "this area may be used by standard class ticket holders".
In 700s with declassified first, the in train display boards will either say (rotating through the rest of the displays such as next stop etc) the area is for first class ticket holders only or is declassified.
I must admit that I don't understand why the signage isn't a lot clearer on this. Putting clear stickers on the entrance to the area would really help, particularly when one encounters a poorly trained RPI who doesn't understand the rule - a PF appeal would succeed, but nobody should have to do that and I have heard of it happening.
Indeed. I wouldn't have thought it would be a problem to have printed signs saying that passengers with standard class tickets can use the area when it is at the rear of the train (and if in doubt check the screens).
GN systems are very good, in my experience. I have never seen them incorrectly report the different locations of First Class (and disabled area) on 387s, 379s and 700s.
In 700s with declassified first, the in train display boards will either say (rotating through the rest of the displays such as next stop etc) the area is for first class ticket holders only or is declassified.
This is so often wrong (e.g. first class is still shown at Birmingham New St on WMT Class 350 services even though it's been abolished for well over a year) it can't be relied upon.
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For a Cambridge/Peterborough-Brighton/Horsham there are 26 declassified seats on a train that seats 666, and it is full within a couple of stops on busy services. It might seem fairer for all customers to advertise it better (and less of a hack for us in the know) but it wouldn't suddenly mean that swathes of unfilled seats on packed trains start getting used.
Anecdotally, there are often a few in the rear first class who unknowingly think they're "getting away with being in First Class" on standard tickets... or no ticket at all. I also suspect some passengers are on First Class tickets wondering why it's so busy (I did this once and only once en route to Gatwick on a First Class ticket, in the early days!)
No, not all Thameslink services offer First Class seating. On routes served by Thameslink trains, first class accommodation can be found at the very front of the train. The first class compartment at the rear of Thameslink trains is always declassified. Please check your specific route before travelling. Our timetables display which services have First Class accommodation.
As someone with knees, I appreciate that it is the case. It may only be 26/52 seats, but it's not a trivial space difference given the significant number of services on which even 12-car Thameslink trains are full and standing, even though the percentage of overall seating capacity affected is small.
[Station board info] is so often wrong (e.g. first class is still shown at Birmingham New St on WMT Class 350 services even though it's been abolished for well over a year) it can't be relied upon.
This information is consistently and reliably shown for the 700s. I appreciate that's not the case across the entire network but as @Royston Vasey also notes for the GN routes, this info is dependable on Thameslink and on Southern from long and frequent experience.
For what it's worth, I've never encountered a 'problem RPI' for this issue and find it hard to imagine that anyone working in such a capacity on Thameslink services would not be aware of this long-standing rule. It is usual for them to be checking contactless and Oyster cards in the declassified area without comment.
I must admit that I don't understand why the signage isn't a lot clearer on this. Putting clear stickers on the entrance to the area would really help, particularly when one encounters a poorly trained RPI who doesn't understand the rule - a PF appeal would succeed, but nobody should have to do that and I have heard of it happening.
Theoretically yes, and I am as paranoid as anyone about poorly trained RPIs, but I've never seen a case on here, on Reddit or in the press about someone being chinged in the rear compartment, or even had to clarify/correct an RPI on board whilst sitting there.
Was it ever reported on here? Was it the rear compartment or the front on a fully declassified train? TL or GN service? The RPIs also work in pairs and inevitably one will be more experienced than the other in most cases and able to guide the other.
GN systems are very good, in my experience. I have never seen them incorrectly report the different locations of First Class (and disabled area) on 387s, 379s and 700s.
It's a lot easier for GN to do this than GWR as units (except the 700s which can turn when diverting via Lewes, but not important as they are identical either way round) are always in the same orientation. GWR's network has triangles where units can swap orientation (or skip a swap during disruption!) and confuse the CIS.
It's a bit of an open secret now unfortunately, sometimes it's pretty full by Preston Park even on early trains at the w/e. The chairs are slightly less ironing boardy but the having a table is the best bit for me - even better if you can bag the best seat on the train! The lack of power sockets don't really bother me but I really wish they'd fit tables throughout the unit, those little triangular ones would suffice - just somewhere to rest one's can of beer/cup of coffee.
It doesn't help that everyone walks past the compartment at Brighton as it's at the buffers. Personally, I won't bother walking to the end of the platform to declassified 1st for short journeys or if I'll just need to walk back on myself depending on where the exits are where I'm getting off. But at Brighton if you have to walk past it to get to the rest of the train...
I'm sure lots of people have seen on TikTok and Instagram Reels that it's declassified. So yes, open secret.
Theoretically yes, and I am as paranoid as anyone about poorly trained RPIs, but I've never seen a case on here, on Reddit or in the press about someone being chinged in the rear compartment, or even had to clarify/correct an RPI on board whilst sitting there.
Was it ever reported on here? Was it the rear compartment or the front on a fully declassified train? TL or GN service? The RPIs also work in pairs and inevitably one will be more experienced than the other in most cases and able to guide the other.
Never had any issues with RPIs, though I once had to clarify railcard validity on a Saturday morning with a Scotrail guard that was fairly new to the job at the time... Most onboard staff I've met across the country have been reasonable and friendly.
Been like it for a decade since the trains were introduced.
Note that is always the rear of the train in direction of travel. Mrs BR still can‘t get her head round that the rear of the train to Brighton is not the same as the rear of the train leaving Brighton!
This information is consistently and reliably shown for the 700s. I appreciate that's not the case across the entire network but as @Royston Vasey also notes for the GN routes, this info is dependable on Thameslink and on Southern from long and frequent experience.
I've always suspected that this is because of the primary importance of advertising disabled boarding correctly (although the marshaling has the disabled doors in the same place on 387 and 379) and the position of First Class and is a less important but useful side effect.
The formation is rarely in reverse but even ignoring that the three types at, say boarding southbound at Royston, Great Northern services can have the disabled area and FC areas in:
379s: disabled 2 and 6 (and 10), first 1 and 4 (and 9)
387s: disabled 2 and 6 (and 10), first 4 and 8 (and 12)
700/0s: disabled 4 and 5, first 1 only
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It doesn't help that everyone walks past the compartment at Brighton as it's at the buffers. Personally, I won't bother walking to the end of the platform to declassified 1st for short journeys or if I'll just need to walk back on myself depending on where the exits are where I'm getting off. But at Brighton if you have to walk past it to get to the rest of the train...
I'm sure lots of people have seen on TikTok and Instagram Reels that it's declassified. So yes, open secret.
No, and I don't bother with it on a Kings Cross starter even when going all the way, much better to seek peace and quiet in coach 1 or 2 than being slightly more comfortable in a packed FC compartment. This is particularly true later in the evenings when it's disproportionately filled with the rowdier passengers, who may not even realise or care that it's declassified anyway!
It's a lot easier for GN to do this than GWR as units (except the 700s which can turn when diverting via Lewes, but not important as they are identical either way round) are always in the same orientation. GWR's network has triangles where units can swap orientation (or skip a swap during disruption!) and confuse the CIS.
Aware that this in danger of going off-topic, but just getting the stock orientation wrong would be a massive improvement in GW land where the incorrect train/platform is frequently displayed until the last minute.
I've always suspected that this is because of the primary importance of advertising disabled boarding correctly (although the marshaling has the disabled doors in the same place on 387 and 379) and the position of First Class and is a less important but useful side effect.
The formation is rarely in reverse but even ignoring that the three types at, say boarding southbound at Royston, Great Northern services can have the disabled area and FC areas in:
GTR have had a few 387s and 379s operating “wrong way round” on GN when first introduced, but they have always had them turned fairly promptly. I think all the 379s that are in service are all now correctly oriented.
The 365s also generally stayed facing the same way, though a couple of units did manage to face the wrong way in service for a very brief period, which was presumably the result of getting turned whilst visiting Ilford.
FWIW the 700/1s do turn very occasionally (presumably on the rare occasions they run via Lewes), so it wouldn’t be possible to label individual ends on these.
One wonders how long first will survive on Thameslink, given how things have gone elsewhere.
GTR have had a few 387s and 379s operating “wrong way round” on GN when first introduced, but they have always had them turned fairly promptly. I think all the 379s that are in service are all now correctly oriented.
The 365s also generally stayed facing the same way, though a couple of units did manage to face the wrong way in service for a very brief period, which was presumably the result of getting turned whilst visiting Ilford.
FWIW the 700/1s do turn very occasionally (presumably on the rare occasions they run via Lewes), so it wouldn’t be possible to label individual ends on these.
One wonders how long first will survive on Thameslink, given how things have gone elsewhere.
These days I regrettably do not go out on the trains much - I miss my status pass riding around especially on Tuesdays - but though peak 1st class patronage was light on Thameslink - always subject to those getting full penalties when the RPI's did a check - off peak genuine 1st was effectively nil. I can only assume it was / is there due to ORCATS sharing with other TOC's as was. It really needs to go in this day and age.
You can buy a ticket for someone else to use entirely (such as a family member). What you cannot do is both use the same ticket at different times, for example buying (say) a return ticket, using the outward portion and then giving the return to someone else, or give a travelcard that you have already used to someone else...
PS (and on topic) - and not to @Harratt4 in particular - as a 700 commuter often found in the rear first class, lets all keep that to ourselves. It gives us slightly more quiet and comfort than we would get if everyone knew...!
It doesn't help that everyone walks past the compartment at Brighton as it's at the buffers. Personally, I won't bother walking to the end of the platform to declassified 1st for short journeys or if I'll just need to walk back on myself depending on where the exits are where I'm getting off. But at Brighton if you have to walk past it to get to the rest of the train...
I'm sure lots of people have seen on TikTok and Instagram Reels that it's declassified. So yes, open secret.
Bloody tiktoks!
I walk to the end at PRP if I'm going to Farringdon as it's bang on for the Lizzie line entrance, same for STP as I'm never in that much of a rush as I'm usually on an advance from there, KGX or EUS and allow plenty of time. If I'm getting on at STP I walk to the back as the flange squeal isn't quite as bad down that end of the platform. The other thing is the middle carriages often get wedged as a everyone piles on there at Gatwick - particularly when it's raining.
Declassified back-1st-class is a god-send because it's the only place on the train with power sockets... (except those dubious ones at certain places in standard they don't like you using).
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