12 car 350/1 to be tested at 110mph

[anthony263]

What? Are the 323s on the Cross-city being replaced then? The 323s are perfectly suited to their job there; I don't see any need to replace them.

Fit them with 2+2 seating and order some class 378's for northern & merseyrail then all the class 323's could be given to ATW to work on the valley lines if the valley lines are wired.

 

[sprinterguy]

What? Are the 323s on the Cross-city being replaced then? The 323s are perfectly suited to their job there; I don't see any need to replace them.

As far as I know, it's still an oft mentioned desire of LMs', but with nothing set in stone.

 

[Class172]

As far as I know, it's still an oft mentioned desire of LMs', but with nothing set in stone.

I thought originally it was going to be that all of Northern's 323s would go to LM to provide extra capacity and replace 321s, which then go to northern. Northern would then receive new class 350/3s. Oh well, it's constantly changing these days.

As long as the 350/3s don't have 2+3 seating!

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
I don't see this as a test of the 350's at all. I'm sure that they can get up to an sustain 110mph without any / much bother.

Reading the tender docs carefully it's all about testing the interactions of the 3 pantographs with the OHLE at 110mph. That's a load on the OHLE that hasn't been done before.
The dynamics of a single pantograph (eg pendolino, a 395 or a Class 91 set) at 125mph will be really very different to 3 pantographs all in contact with the OHLE. It'll make that wire bounce around all over the place...

I can only imagine the instrumentation that'll be crammed on board to do this and gather the data... It'll need to similar to a temporary Network Rail Measurement train I guess?
Cheers,
Jason

 

[Lampshade]

Will it need all three pans up? I've never seen two EMUs coupled together outside of third rail land.

 

[ainsworth74]

Will it need all three pans up? I've never seen two EMUs coupled together outside of third rail land.

Yes as there is no way to transfer power between the separate units so in order for all three to actually provide motive power they need to have their pantographs up.

 

[westcoaster]

I read somewhere (I think it was on here) that the 350s had been used at 140mph at the Siemens test track in Germany.

I believe this to be true, but in service they are limited to 99.9mph ok let's just say 100 mph, even if the driver leaves it taking full power the TMS acts as a cruise control and will not let it go over 100 mph.

 

[notadriver]

I believe this to be true, but in service they are limited to 99.9mph ok let's just say 100 mph, even if the driver leaves it taking full power the TMS acts as a cruise control and will not let it go over 100 mph.

Are you sure about that ?

 

[jopsuk]

Will it need all three pans up? I've never seen two EMUs coupled together outside of third rail land.

They will, as said, not power connection in an auto-coupler. Three AC units is common on the LTS out of Fenchurch Street (357s), the GEML (360s and I think 321s as well? And possibly 317/7s soon) (and, from December, the WAML- 379s) out of Liverpool Street, the ECML out of Kings Cross (365s), it'll be on the MML (Thameslink services) before too long and the 350s already operate in 12 car formation- so before long it'll be common on all the AC mainlines north from London, just as it is common south of the river.

 

[MCR247]

I thought originally it was going to be that all of Northern's 323s would go to LM to provide extra capacity and replace 321s, which then go to northern. Northern would then receive new class 350/3s. Oh well, it's constantly changing these days.

As long as the 350/3s don't have 2+3 seating!

I don't think it was ever the plan for Northern to get 350s?

 

[MrC]

Are you sure about that ?

Probably same as the 450/444s which do the same thing. Driver still has to watch the speedo as the TMS and desk speedos can sometimes be a few mph apart.

 

[notadriver]

Hmmm unless something has changed I don't know of any EMUs that are speed limited - at least not to their exact rated top speed.

 

[asylumxl]

Anyone think there is any chance of the results of this test also being applied to the TL stock on Brighton-Bedford services, to take advantage of the 110mph limit on the MML?

 

[MCR247]

They'd have to do a similar test with 377s or the new TL stock?

The thought of a 377 at 110mph makes me shudder, I could imagine it literally falling apart!

 

[the sniper]

Just out of curiosity, are 350s cleared to run on the Cross City line at the moment? Has a 350 ever run on the line?

If the 323s are leaving the Midlands, surely it'd make more sense to replace them with City Desiros if LM are getting new stock? I'm sure they'd be better suited to the role, but I guess the necessity to tie the order in with new TPE stock and the benefits of LM having a standardised EMU fleet outweighs the importance of suitability...

 

[asylumxl]

They'd have to do a similar test with 377s or the new TL stock?

I meant the new TL stock. Since it'll be a member of the Desiro family.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think it was ever the plan for Northern to get 350s?

It never got as far as proposing any particular stock, but there was a DfT proposal back in the 2008 rolling stock plan to consolidate all the 323s with one TOC - however transfers in both directions have been mentioned at various times:

The London Midland franchise would introduce additional class 323 vehicles cascaded from Northern, which would be back filled with new build or cascaded vehicles‚.

Of course that predates the electrification announcements - which soak up the 319 fleet, if there'd been no electrification the 319s would have needed an alternative cascade route...

 

[sprinterguy]

Just out of curiosity, are 350s cleared to run on the Cross City line at the moment? Has a 350 ever run on the line?

They run over the Aston - New Street section regularly enough, but I don't know if they've been tested over the rest of the Cross City line; I would suspect not.

 

[bluenoxid]

It never got as far as proposing any particular stock, but there was a DfT proposal back in the 2008 rolling stock plan to consolidate all the 323s with one TOC - however transfers in both directions have been mentioned at various times:


Of course that predates the electrification announcements - which soak up the 319 fleet, if there'd been no electrification the 319s would have needed an alternative cascade route...

Yes. The 2008 plan was the occasion when the 323's were heading south. A tender was issued that reversed that and it is still the belief that Northern will receive 323's. If a 350/3 was to be purchased, it would allow a quick release of 323 stock to enhance services in the Northern area before the 319's arrive and also save blushes when it is realised that the 319 fleet is not going to stretch that thinly.

 

[northwichcat]

It never got as far as proposing any particular stock, but there was a DfT proposal back in the 2008 rolling stock plan to consolidate all the 323s with one TOC - however transfers in both directions have been mentioned at various times

The actual original DfT proposal said the Northern's 323s would go to LM and Northern would get new EMUs to replace them and provide 24 additional carriages (intended for the North West routes.) The Yorkshire RUS published after this recommended an addition of around 30 vehicles to this order in order to provide additional capacity for Yorkshire and replace the 321s.

There was never a tender put out for new EMUs for Northern though so an actual type of unit was never decided on.

However, LM put in a tender for new EMUs and the DfT proposal was updated to say Northern would receive new or cascaded EMUs which suggested that the 323 cascade would be reversed.

(Incidentally the same document said the LO 150s would go to Northern and the LM 150s would be split between Northern and FGW to compliment a new DMU delivery.)

if there'd been no electrification the 319s would have needed an alternative cascade route...

The actual details of the Thameslink cascade released have been somewhat limited. I think the only reason DfT mentioned cascaded Thameslink EMUs for the newly electrified lines so far in advance is because otherwise people would have been getting excited about receiving new EMUs and then complaining later on when they are actually told they are getting old Thameslink trains.

We shouldn't forget that other operators like NXEA have been promised a 3 figure number of extra EMUs when we're looking at how many units are left over after being released by Thameslink so I wouldn't be surprised if all the 317s and 321s released by the Thameslink program go to NXEA.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes. The 2008 plan was the occasion when the 323's were heading south. A tender was issued that reversed that and it is still the belief that Northern will receive 323's. If a 350/3 was to be purchased, it would allow a quick release of 323 stock to enhance services in the Northern area before the 319's arrive and also save blushes when it is realised that the 319 fleet is not going to stretch that thinly.

I think a 323 move TO Northern has no real likelihood as of now. You mention a tender being issued, but is it still in progress or has it lapsed, like a number of others?

In any case, it would need a much larger order for replacement EMUs for LM than is currently underway. As far as I can work from various rail mag articles the current LM tender is for a single figure number of units, something between 5 and 10, and even that number is dependent on the Bromsgrove electrification being signed off.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We shouldn't forget that other operators like NXEA have been promised a 3 figure number of extra EMUs when we're looking at how many units are left over after being released by Thameslink so I wouldn't be surprised if all the 317s and 321s released by the Thameslink program go to NXEA.

Are you sure about that? What is known is that NXEA were to have an overall gain of 188 EMU vehicles - and that deal consisted of 30 x 379s and 17 x 321s (ex LM), and that has already happened.

Perhaps there's something you can quote that suggests more ex FCC units are yet to go to NXEA, because I can't think of anything official.

 

[DjU]

In any case, it would need a much larger order for replacement EMUs for LM than is currently underway. As far as I can work from various rail mag articles the current LM tender is for a single figure number of units, something between 5 and 10, and even that number is dependent on the Bromsgrove electrification being signed off.

The potential 350/3 order seems to be for 15 or 18 units (The extra 3 being, as you say dependant on the Bromsgrove electrification.)

10 for TPE (Either direct 10* 350/3 or to allow for 10* 350/1 to move)

5 or 8 for LM (Extra three units dependant on Bromsgrove)

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't understand why the proposal for an additional three units rests on the commitment to Bromsgrove electrification: Posts on this forum in the past have said that extending Cross City line services down to Bromsgrove won't require any extra trains over what can already be provided by the existing 323 fleet, and only a small number of such services could be 350 worked anyway with such a small order. I would think the additional LM 350s would be for replacing the remaining 321s more than anything else.

 

[swt_passenger]

Posts on this forum in the past have said that extending Cross City line services down to Bromsgrove won't require any extra trains over what can already be provided by the existing 323 fleet...

Doesn't mean posts in the past were correct. This quote is from the finalised WM RUS:

"On the Cross City South corridor, there is planned
service improvement with the Cross City line operating
three trains per hour to each of Bromsgrove and
Redditch (in each direction) by extending the existing
Longbridge services. Additional vehicles are planned
in order to operate this service enhancement and to
meet demand on the rest of the corridor."

That last bit isn't specific, but it is more than zero...

 

[150001]

So are LM getting extra Desiros to go on the Cross city. Well, personally, they should support the home market and order some Class 378s. Keep Bombardier going for a little while longer

 

[Class172]

So are LM getting extra Desiros to go on the Cross city. Well, personally, they should support the home market and order some Class 378s. Keep Bombardier going for a little while longer

Then if a 378 fails they could be rescued by a 170 or 172.

 

[MCR247]

378s have Dellner couplers, as do 350s


Get it right

 

[The Planner]

Doesn't mean posts in the past were correct. This quote is from the finalised WM RUS:

"On the Cross City South corridor, there is planned
service improvement with the Cross City line operating
three trains per hour to each of Bromsgrove and
Redditch (in each direction) by extending the existing
Longbridge services. Additional vehicles are planned
in order to operate this service enhancement and to
meet demand on the rest of the corridor."

That last bit isn't specific, but it is more than zero...

Reads to me like it would be strengthening of services, not extra trains. The existing Redditch and Longbridge services can be made to work to Bromsgrove and an increase in frequency to Redditch with the existing amount of trains.

 

[dave_wm]

I'd imagine it might end up more like 350s going to replace 323s on the Walsall - Birmingham - Wolverhampton and Birmingham New Street - Birmingham International lines and concentrating all the 323s on the Cross City line so there's a uniform fleet (for doubling up and the like).

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Reads to me like it would be strengthening of services, not extra trains. The existing Redditch and Longbridge services can be made to work to Bromsgrove and an increase in frequency to Redditch with the existing amount of trains.

Cant have more than 2tph each way I think due to single track between Barnt Green and Redditch