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I think the issue there is that if you want a simple fare system, then that fare system isn't going to be able to take into account the specifics of each individual train. We generally charge more for travel before (roughly) 9:30am because most trains across the UK are busier during that period. Charging more (including restricting railcard availability) during that period serves two purposes: It deters people from travelling on many of the most crowded trains, thereby freeing up those trains for people who have to travel at those times. And it maximises revenue by charging more for commuters who are essentially a captured market and more willing to pay more. As you identify there are a minority of routes where trains are actually more crowded later in the morning, and for those trains you could argue that the higher rush hour fares are not helpful. But since those are a minority of trains, it's still the case that overall across the country the higher rush hour fares probably do more good than harm.
You could try having special different rules for those particular trains to reflect their crowding patterns but then you'll end up with a complicated fare system that no-one understands. That's already too much of a problem with all sorts of different restrictions on different routes. Or you could go the other way and just lose rush hour fares and restrictions altogether - but in much of the country that would just exacerbate the problem of rush hour trains being too crowded. That seems to me to suggest that keeping peak hour restrictions, but simplifying them so the rules are more consistent everywhere, is the least bad solution.
In other words, yes you believe that a system of split ticketing is the simplest solution.
The thing is, no-one can agree on what simple means; some people think that not needing to split, but you disagree. That's fine; I'm not even arguing one way or another
It will ensure the retention of the current system of people who book through sites such as Trainsplit, rather than booking direct, pay lower fares for longer journeys, whether people see that as good or bad, that is one way of market segmentation.
Given some of the comments on how poor the survey seems to be laid out, my take is that it’s either a kite flying exercise, or a prelude to “consultation” on the matter prior to a predetermined decision being implemented.
When morning peak restriction were introduced for the Dales Railcard, the changes were applied to existing, as well as new, railcard holders. I seem to recall that if you complained about it then Northern offered to cancel and refund your existing railcard.
That's not legal. Was there a thread at the time? I'm sure that if certain knowledgeable contributors had seen it, they would have provided advice on how to handle any such attempt to renege on the deal.
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I don't have a Senior Railcard (it's not long until I qualify, mind!) but we do have a 2Together railcard which of course has the 9.30am restriction on weekdays.
When I travel solo I often end up on early weekday trains that are basically carting around fresh air. Very early northbound departures from Kings Cross spring to mind - I've been on the 0640 Harrogate, the 0645 Lincoln and the 0733 Newcastle recently and they're basically empty. Surely these are the sorts of train that you'd want to fill up? If you can get there early, the 0645 is perfect for a day trip to Lincoln and the 0733 for a trip to York, etc.
I agree, except the rail industry is not run to full seats or provide a public service. The aim of train companies is purely to maximise revenue of those who do travel, and also disregard any potential lost revenue from people who are deferred from travelling.
I believe the Government are more than happy for people to choose to drive instead, as this increases fuel duty revenues as well as reducing the need for additional stock at the busiest times; the Government doesn't want 'too many' people to travel by rail, because that incurs costs.
There is certainly no attempt to get people off roads and onto the rails, as there is in more progressive countries.
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Indeed if I am booking York to London for a senior Railcard holder, for a leisure journey, I will aim to book them on a pre-0930 train because they will be quieter.
The people who support or condone this proposal are missing the bigger picture.
Also, just in case anyone is in any doubt, the powers that be absolutely want to similarly restrict other railcards, such as the 16-25 Railcard and many more. The only one they daren't not mess with is the Disabled Railcard.
That's not legal. Was there a thread at the time? I'm sure that if certain knowledgeable contributors had seen it, they would have provided advice on how to handle any such attempt to renege on the deal.
The guard on my train today told me the conditions of Dales railcard are changing from 3rd January 2022. Main points are: * No longer valid before 0815 ( (Mon - Fri) * No longer valid between Carlisle and Brampton * No longer available to people in the CA8 postcode. * The price is going to...
If, like me, you have a London postcode, you effectively have a default 0930 restriction.
I know nothing about this survey. Although I "purchase" my Railcard from the Railcard website, I always use Tesco Clubcard vouchers, so haven't ever handed over any real money! Perhaps I'm tagged as a cheapskate!!
Another drawback of this change could be that us old dodderers return to driving on our already busy and confusing road networks, thus putting our own and others' safety at risk. On the trains I usually take (granted usually but not exclusively after 09:30) there's a very high proportion of what I would suggest are over-60s/70s, all waving their railcards around on ticket checks. I suspect most have cars at home that they only use for local shopping or driving to the station. Do we really want to put people with slow reactions and failing eyesight back on today's fast motorways? Especially in rush hour traffic, which would be the outcome if pre-09:30 ticket prices increase by 50%.
Are we to assume that they make no money out of tickets sold at railcard discounted rates? I doubt that, as railcards would not exist, so they just want to penalise us by making us pay even more than we currently do.
One thing to note is that if, like me, you live in the catchment area for the 09:30 restriction, it doesn't apply if your journey terminates outside the limited start zone. I recently travelled from Horsham to Frome early am and was able to leave any time I wished.
Even travelling from London, that will depend on the journey. There will be some journeys that can be made with a railcar discounted ticket travelling before 0930.
Even travelling from London, that will depend on the journey. There will be some journeys that can be made with a railcar discounted ticket travelling before 0930.
I suspect the point being made is that even with a railcard discount, the fact that it is applied to a higher level of underlying fare means that travel is best not undertaken until after 0930.
For example, a discounted Anytime Day Single from London to Bristol is £92.35 with a Senior Railcard, compared to £29.95 for the discounted Super Off-peak single.
I suspect the point being made is that even with a railcard discount, the fact that it is applied to a higher level of underlying fare means that travel is best not undertaken until after 0930.
Even some Off Peak fares from the London area can be used before 0930, and it is such tickets for journeys wholly within the Network railcard area that I am referring to. For example, an Off Peak Day Return from Elephant & Castle to Luton Airport Parkway is valid from 0900, and can be discounted at that time.
I suspect the point being made is that even with a railcard discount, the fact that it is applied to a higher level of underlying fare means that travel is best not undertaken until after 0930.
For example, a discounted Anytime Day Single from London to Bristol is £92.35 with a Senior Railcard, compared to £29.95 for the discounted Super Off-peak single.
One thing to note is that if, like me, you live in the catchment area for the 09:30 restriction, it doesn't apply if your journey terminates outside the limited start zone. I recently travelled from Horsham to Frome early am and was able to leave any time I wished.
Exactly this; under the current system your (Super) Off Peak is valid on any train to London, and only restricted from London (or Reading). An Anytime could be used at any time on the entire route, at higher cost but still with discount.
However, under the new system, you'd need to split. Sites such as the forum's ticketing site would do this automatically, while the GBR website will charge you a hefty premium.
Even some Off Peak fares from the London area can be used before 0930, and it is such tickets for journeys wholly within the Network railcard area that I am referring to. For example, an Off Peak Day Return from Elephant & Castle to Luton Airport Parkway is valid from 0900, and can be discounted at that time.
Yes, the restriction within the South East has always been defined in terms of when the off-peak tickets first become valid, not a blanket 0930, but if more routes move towards a common 0930 restriction, such as has happened in the Project Oval area, the Senior Railcard restriction moves automatically in the same way.
When I first had a Senior RailCard I lived in the Network South East area, and assumed that the off-peak validity restriction applied to such cards everywhere. Huge surprise when I moved out of that area and discovered the restriction did not apply. But, even when I was in the south east, I could still get a senior railcard discounted fare for long journeys starting before 9.30, as long as the departure time from London was after 9.30. I remember such trips to York for the Railway Museum, and Kidderminster for the Severn Valley railway.
I'm not going to list them here but their are numerous tickets available from Kent with a senior Railcard to outside the network area which are a fraction of the cost of an anytime single to London Terminals. Maybe someone in the revenue department has twigged?
I thought it was something to do with the departure time from London. I know when a bunch of us went to York we went on the 10.00 service ex King's Cross.
I see from my records that when we went to Portsmouth (for the Dockyard) in 2013 we took the 8.37 from Billericay and the 10.02 from Victoria. But that was Off-Peak Day return with Groupsave, not Senior Railcard. (Still travelling on an Off-peak ticket on an obviously peak time service however.) But my notes regarding Kidderminster (dep Billericay 6.57 and Euston 8.23) and Bristol (for the SS Great Britain) (dep Billericay 7.31, Paddington 9am) confirm that there was no such time restriction, as you say. Living the south east I just didn't realise that Senior Railcard discounts only had an off-peak validity in the Network Southeast area. I thought it was everywhere. Now I live in Lancashire (outside the Liverpool City Region) and have to be quite creative in my use of the Senior Railcard as I do not qualify for a MerseyTravel over 60s pass.
How typically small-minded of the railway that it might look at Senior Railcard holders travelling before 09:30 as a group to extort more revenue from. Undoubtedly there would be some over-60s commuters who would end up having to pay a lot more to get to work. But there’s a lot of leisure travel. Plenty of people over 60, such as myself, are retired even though they are not of pensionable age. Some may be well off, others not exactly rolling in money. They use the railcard primarily for leisure travel, which is discretionary. Making the railcard conditions more restrictive risks threatening that spend.
On the other hand I can honestly say in the nearly four years I have had a Senior Railcard I have NEVER been on an early morning train that is so packed that I am denying a full fare paying passenger a seat. If the Senior Railcard was restricted to after 09:30 I almost certainly wouldn’t renew mine as it becomes far less useful for days out. And as a result, I would make far far fewer journeys by train. So the change wouldn’t be revenue positive for the railway in my case (and I suspect plenty of others) - the net loss to the railway industry would be the price people like me pay for the railcard and all the reduced fares we would no longer buy.
Time restrictions on Railcards are hardly conducive to fares simplification. One ends up having to split the ticket on journeys that straddle the cut-off time for the Railcard discount, even when one through ticket would normally be the cheapest option.
It also leads to people being fined or prosecuted for using Anytime tickets at the wrong time of day, which just doesn't look good when written up in the papers.
It will depend on the terms and conditions. When the Network Railcard first gained its minimum fare, that only applied to cards bought after a particular date, but the terms and conditions now allow for certain changes to be implemented during the validity period of the railcard.
The Network Railcard terms and conditions now say "Train Companies may change the Railcard Conditions during the validity of your Railcard. Where possible, the Train Companies will communicate these to you by displaying information at stations at least three months prior to the change."
@Watershed has made the point I was going to make. Another way to look at it is, am I as the Railcard holder allowed unilaterally to make changes to the contract in my favour during the term of the Railcard? If not, the term that purports to give them a completely one-sided right to do so creates a serious imbalance in what is a consumer contract. So they'd be well advised not to try to renege on the advertised benefits of Railcards people have already bought in good faith.
It depends on what the purpose of a Railcard is, however what I can tell you is that trains from Yorkshire to London before 0930 are much quieter than trains after 0930 in my experience. This would only make that worse
I thought it was something to do with the departure time from London. I know when a bunch of us went to York we went on the 10.00 service ex King's Cross.
I see from my records that when we went to Portsmouth (for the Dockyard) in 2013 we took the 8.37 from Billericay and the 10.02 from Victoria. But that was Off-Peak Day return with Groupsave, not Senior Railcard. (Still travelling on an Off-peak ticket on an obviously peak time service however.) But my notes regarding Kidderminster (dep Billericay 6.57 and Euston 8.23) and Bristol (for the SS Great Britain) (dep Billericay 7.31, Paddington 9am) confirm that there was no such time restriction, as you say. Living the south east I just didn't realise that Senior Railcard discounts only had an off-peak validity in the Network Southeast area. I thought it was everywhere. Now I live in Lancashire (outside the Liverpool City Region) and have to be quite creative in my use of the Senior Railcard as I do not qualify for a MerseyTravel over 60s pass.
Obviously not Billericay as that is well within the Network Card area, But I've travelled to Norwich leaving St Albans at just after 08:30 on an off-peak ticket to Ipswich The onwards on a ticket to Norwich, (without leaving my seat at Ipswich). Similarly, I have travelled to Sheffield leaving here at about the same time with two same platform changes to end up on a St Pancras to Sheffield train that left London at 09:00 (09:00 now), but would have cost almost twice as much (and another 45mins.) to double back to/from London.
I just looked up the current t&cs for the Senior Railcard, seeing as the other half turns 60 in a few months.
"4.2. Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays). The time when off-peak services start can vary by station. Use nationalrail.co.uk to plan your journey to identify when off-peak services start or ask rail staff for details."
Clear as mud, especially if you travel from different places, but probably the only way to enable only trains going through the SE at peak times to be excluded.
The 60+ Oyster Card, which gives you free TfL travel, specifies you don't get the discount "between 4.30 and 9.30am, Monday to Friday" except bank holidays, which is a lot clearer! Though I think it would make sense to change it to say 7 and 9.30am, to shift more people onto the uncrowded early trains (and encourage those day trips mentioned upthread).
If using the National Rail website is a requirement for finding out if a Senior Railcard is valid on a certain train (even the best staff member isn't going to memorise the whole thing), then why not go the whole hog and offer SR fares on it for random underused services, even if they might be currently excluded?
The 60+ Oyster Card, which gives you free TfL travel, specifies you don't get the discount "between 4.30 and 9.30am, Monday to Friday" except bank holidays, which is a lot clearer! Though I think it would make sense to change it to say 7 and 9.30am, to shift more people onto the uncrowded early trains (and encourage those day trips mentioned upthread).
The 60+ Oyster is valid from 9am M-F on TfL operated services (eg Elizabeth Line) but 9:30am on "National Rail". So you need to be an expert in rail service management organisations to stay within the rules!!
Northern are an unprofessional ramshackle outfit, who relied on people not exercising their contractual rights.
If RDG tried this approach with all Railcards, or even just the Senior Railcard, they would be opening themselves up to a very real prospect of legal action, potentially including a class action claim.
I'm confident they won't change the rules mid term during the validity period, but the 'powers that be' (DfT etc) certainly are plotting to remove the validity of Railcards before 09:30 across the board (except the Disabled Railcard) as soon as they think they can get away with it.
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The 60+ Oyster is valid from 9am M-F on TfL operated services (eg Elizabeth Line) but 9:30am on "National Rail". So you need to be an expert in rail service management organisations to stay within the rules!!
It wouldn't surprise me if DfT are trying to find a way to force TfL to make it 0930 across the board in the name of "simplification".
And that's what anyone who wants simplification should be careful of; yes, there are some exceptions, but generally speaking "simplification" is achieved by increasing the cost of, or abolishing, cheaper fares.
It was mentioned that the last time the terms were changed they added a mark to new railcards which is still there. Since all the unmarked railcards have surely expired I wonder if they will remove the mark as a way of making the new change?
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the survey has only been sent to customers who are believed not to use the Railcard before 09.30, in order that the results are weighted towards there being little impact on railcard holders.
I travel more on trains *because* I have a senior railcard and it is more attractive than driving (and the Govt get less fuel duty off me as I have a PHEV, although they may get their 1.5p/mile from April 2028)
The railway probably get *more* money out of me because I have a senior railcard (but less road related duty/tax).
But then I read this forum, and use split ticketing wherever possible, and have flexibility of travel times (usually), and don't live or much travel in London/S-E (I'm in Yorks), so am probably not the average rail user...
I purchased my (3-year) senior railcard via the NRE app, but have not had the email survey.
I got my senior railcard at 60, and am glad I did. I suspect it may soon be aligned to state pension age (and that's probably not unreasonable)
It would seem everyone agrees that load (by time) balancing is a good thing, it's just getting some sort of conformity on the timing of the railcard time restrictions seems really difficult across all the railcards. You can't make everyone happy all the time ....
The Dales railcard gets a mention on this thread: I used to have a Dales railcard until I got a senior railcard, and the senior railcard doesn't (currently!) have the early time restrictions on the S&C that the Dales railcard has. For both the reduction is 1/3, but the Dales Railcard has early morning time restrictions.
Railcards should be a tool to encourage more discretionary travel and increase revenue, not that some people micromanaging the industry appear to understand that concept.
Ideally I would like to see local fares being set and managed by the local transport authorities where applicable like in Germany and many other continental countries, and GBR for journeys to/from outside those areas. Align all restrictions on Railcards, allow use at all times across the national network subject to a minimum fare (like with the 16-25 one at the moment), and make it available to all ages (with differential pricing depending on qualifying criteria if needed be). The myriad of terms at the moment is bewildering for both customers and staff. There is no reason why it cannot be revenue neutral in the long run with moderate levels of growth, and there is a huge amount of data available nowadays to assess spending behaviour from individuals therefore sensible pricing points can be set for those not currently eligible for one.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
