Senior Railcard Survey

[cambran]

I have just been asked to complete an online survey 'to shape the future of the railcard' Worryingly almost all the questions related to what ticket I would use for journeys before 9.30am if the railcard was not valid then. It looks as if there are plans to extend the morning restriction, making the card much less useful.

 

[anothertyke]

So presumably the correct response is ' I would travel by car' or 'I would not travel' .

 

[yorkie]

I have just been asked to complete an online survey 'to shape the future of the railcard' Worryingly almost all the questions related to what ticket I would use for journeys before 9.30am if the railcard was not valid then. It looks as if there are plans to extend the morning restriction, making the card much less useful.

Yes; most people want cheaper fares but the Government and people who advise the Government argue that people want "simpler" fares, which usually provides excuses for price rises.

I suspect they are a wanting to exclude all railcards being valid before 0930 (with the possible exception of the Disabled Railcard) or even 1000, to replace the various rules that exist currently.

The only form of simplification we should accept is for all Railcards to be valid at all times, but of course that would be deemed to be 'revenue abstractive', so we can't have that!

So presumably the correct response is ' I would travel by car' or 'I would not travel' .

Agreed. Or 'I would travel after 0930'.

It makes no sense because for many journeys, trains are often busier after 0930 than before it; it's all about maximising the amount that each passenger pays.

 

[NickBucks]

I am no simpleton but I found this survey one of the most poorly designed I have seen in a long time. I gave up in the end-life is too short

 

[The exile]

Yes; most people want cheaper fares but the Government and people who advise the Government argue that people want "simpler" fares, which usually provides excuses for price rises.

Those advisors would be right - most people do want simple fares - but what they want is simple affordable fares. And, of course, they want that nice special offer that means it’s even cheaper to go and see their sister after 6pm on the third Tuesday of every month to stay - that’s not complicated at all!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes; most people want cheaper fares but the Government and people who advise the Government argue that people want "simpler" fares, which usually provides excuses for price rises.

I suspect they are a wanting to exclude all railcards being valid before 0930 (with the possible exception of the Disabled Railcard) or even 1000, to replace the various rules that exist currently.

The only form of simplification we should accept is for all Railcards to be valid at all times, but of course that would be deemed to be 'revenue abstractive', so we can't have that!

Agreed. Or 'I would travel after 0930'.

It makes no sense because for many journeys, trains are often busier after 0930 than before it; it's all about maximising the amount that each passenger pays.

I'm struggling to see the issue with railcards not being valid before around 9:30. I'm sure most railcard journeys are likely to be for leisure purposes, and that will certainly be the case for the senior railcard. Realistically before 9am on weekdays the vast majority of journeys are commuting. And almost any train that is serving a commuter corridor in the peak direction will be busy, so it seems sensible to discourage leisure travel in those times.

Of course we'd all like all rail fares to be cheaper, but given that's not going to happen, if there is a desire to simplify railcard rules, then a consistent basis for not allowing railcards during the morning peak seems sensible. My only real quibble there is that 9am rather than 9:30am would better reflect morning peak times, and 10am seems too restrictive.

 

[yorkie]

I'm struggling to see the issue with railcards not being valid before around 9:30. I'm sure most railcard journeys are likely to be for leisure purposes, and that will certainly be the case for the senior railcard.

It depends on what the purpose of a Railcard is, however what I can tell you is that trains from Yorkshire to London before 0930 are much quieter than trains after 0930 in my experience. This would only make that worse

Realistically before 9am on weekdays the vast majority of journeys are commuting. And almost any train that is serving a commuter corridor in the peak direction will be busy, so it seems sensible to discourage leisure travel in those times.

Maybe for shorter distances, but not for long distance journeys. It would also encourage split ticketing; is that "simple"?

 

[Coolzac]

I think also sometimes the railcard and off peak restrictions can make the service just after the restrictions end very busy!

 

[dk1]

I am no simpleton but I found this survey one of the most poorly designed I have seen in a long time. I gave up in the end-life is too short

I often find this with surveys. I start with good intentions but then lose the will to live. As you say, very poorly designed.

 

[talldave]

A lot of us already have a 9:30 restriction !

 

[1955LR]

When I first had a Senior Railcard I didnt realise there were any time restrictions as I live outside the London /South eastern area and would normally travel starting ouside these restrictions . Since joining this forum I now know better. It would interesting to know what proportion of Senior Railcard holders are affected .

 

[Haywain]

I'm struggling to see the issue with railcards not being valid before around 9:30.

Because sometimes it's good to be able to go on a longer journey and arrive before lunchtime.

 

[Kite159]

They will probably spin the results into something like a 09;30 restriction on using the senior railcard on flexible tickets but no time restriction on advance tickets to reduce confusion in the former NSE area.

Just as a way to carry on pushing people towards a booked train only railway.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm struggling to see the issue with railcards not being valid before around 9:30. I'm sure most railcard journeys are likely to be for leisure purposes, and that will certainly be the case for the senior railcard.

So leisure journeys, including long distance trips for stays away are only taken after 09:30. Really????

I assume you don't have a senior railcard.

 

[Hadders]

I'm struggling to see the issue with railcards not being valid before around 9:30.

It's probably time for me to point out one of the key reasons for a 16-25 (and now 26-30) Railcards being valid at all times, subject to a minimum discounted fare before 10:00 on weekdays.

Let's consider Stevenage to London, an Anytime Day Return costs £28.80 which is expensive, especially for a younger person at the start of their career who travels into London for work. Don't fall into the trap of thinking every job in London is well paid. A season ticket is of little help as you have to travel at least five days a week to make it worthwhile (weekly season is £122.70).

The 16-25 and 26-30 means that someone can travel to work in London for a more paletable £19.15 per day - and they can purchase tickets on a daily basis rather than having to pay a large lump sum up front for a season ticket.

Simplifying these railcards by putting a blanket 09:30 restriction would be a very bad move and not a good move for a Government at a time when there are fewer job opportunities than before.

 

[Goldfish62]

My view is that the 0930 restriction on senior railcards in the Network Card area is nonsensical and unfair and needs to be abolished.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 May 2026 ==

Simplifying these railcards by putting a blanket 09:30 restriction would be a very bad move and not a good move for a Government at a time when there are fewer job opportunities than before.

An excellent point.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

My view is that the 0930 restriction on senior railcards in the Network Card area is nonsensical and unfair and needs to be abolished.

Wasn't the original intention to prevent the Senior Railcard being used for regular commuting by those over 60s remaining in employment?

 

[Haywain]

Wasn't the original intention to prevent the Senior Railcard being used for regular commuting by those over 60s remaining in employment?

In the south-east, yes.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Because sometimes it's good to be able to go on a longer journey and arrive before lunchtime.

But no-one is stopping people from doing that. It's just that, if you are starting your longer journey during the morning rush hour, then you'll have to pay the same fare as all the people who aren't eligible for a railcard.

Realistically, the railcard means you pay less than lots of other people for the same travel. Is it that unreasonable to say, if you're getting special fares, there should be some restrictions on when you can get them, in particular so you don't get them during the busiest travel times?

 

[AlterEgo]

But no-one is stopping people from doing that. It's just that, if you are starting your longer journey during the morning rush hour, then you'll have to pay the same fare as all the people who aren't eligible for a railcard.

Realistically, the railcard means you pay less than lots of other people for the same travel. Is it that unreasonable to say, if you're getting special fares, there should be some restrictions on when you can get them, in particular so you don't get them during the busiest travel times?

This has nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with maximising revenue.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It depends on what the purpose of a Railcard is, however what I can tell you is that trains from Yorkshire to London before 0930 are much quieter than trains after 0930 in my experience. This would only make that worse

I think the issue there is that if you want a simple fare system, then that fare system isn't going to be able to take into account the specifics of each individual train. We generally charge more for travel before (roughly) 9:30am because most trains across the UK are busier during that period. Charging more (including restricting railcard availability) during that period serves two purposes: It deters people from travelling on many of the most crowded trains, thereby freeing up those trains for people who have to travel at those times. And it maximises revenue by charging more for commuters who are essentially a captured market and more willing to pay more. As you identify there are a minority of routes where trains are actually more crowded later in the morning, and for those trains you could argue that the higher rush hour fares are not helpful. But since those are a minority of trains, it's still the case that overall across the country the higher rush hour fares probably do more good than harm.

You could try having special different rules for those particular trains to reflect their crowding patterns but then you'll end up with a complicated fare system that no-one understands. That's already too much of a problem with all sorts of different restrictions on different routes. Or you could go the other way and just lose rush hour fares and restrictions altogether - but in much of the country that would just exacerbate the problem of rush hour trains being too crowded. That seems to me to suggest that keeping peak hour restrictions, but simplifying them so the rules are more consistent everywhere, is the least bad solution.

 

[yorksrob]

I can sort of see the point of having a morning restriction on railcards.

9:30 seems too late though and will stifle day trips. 9:00 should be the maximum.

 

[81A]

The purpose of, say, the Jobcentre card and 16-17 saver (and, to a lesser extent, the 16-25 and 26-30) is to help people who are often earning less/no money get to work/education (and, to some extent, leisure-especially for the 16-30 age range). Meanwhile, the Network Card was, as I understand it, started purely for commercial reasons (filling empty seats off-peak on London area commuter routes).

In my opinion, the optimal restrictions depend on the purpose of the card. In the case of cards designed to help people earning less afford travel, the less restrictions the better (conditional on remaining reasonably affordable for the railway). On the contrary, I don’t think the railway (and therefore the taxpayer) should be giving discounts for anything other than commercial reasons when they are intended to be used for leisure purposes/people who can afford the normal price to commute.

Therefore, in my opinion studies should be carried out for railcards like the Senior (since, as far as I know, over 60s are not poorer on average then other age groups-a means based discount could be introduced for those who need it, of all ages) to see if they are revenue positive or revenue negative. If revenue negative, I don’t see the problem with introducing more restrictions or even scrapping them altogether. On the other hand, it may be found that they are revenue positive (say, most journeys using them would not be made without the discount and the users still pay enough with the discount to make retaining their custom worthwhile); in this case, they should probably be kept as they are.

If revenue negative railcards were to be kept for other reasons (say, reducing road congestion), I see no reason why they should be age restricted. There is no reason over 60s with plenty of funds should have their leisure travel subsidised over people from other age groups. It would probably be better to introduce a national railcard available to everyone in this case.

 

[Adam Williams]

Has the survey only been sent to people who bought their Senior Railcard from RDG?

 

[yorksrob]

If revenue negative railcards were to be kept for other reasons (say, reducing road congestion), I see no reason why they should be age restricted. There is no reason over 60s with plenty of funds should have their leisure travel subsidised over people from other age groups. It would probably be better to introduce a national railcard available to everyone in this case.

I agree with this 100% (except I'm not convinced that those railcards are revenue negative).

Sadly, The Establishment in Whitehall do not.

 

[blimmo]

It's probably time for me to point out one of the key reasons for a 16-25 (and now 26-30) Railcards being valid at all times, subject to a minimum discounted fare before 10:00 on weekdays.

Let's consider Stevenage to London, an Anytime Day Return costs £28.80 which is expensive, especially for a younger person at the start of their career who travels into London for work. Don't fall into the trap of thinking every job in London is well paid. A season ticket is of little help as you have to travel at least five days a week to make it worthwhile (weekly season is £122.70).

The 16-25 and 26-30 means that someone can travel to work in London for a more paletable £19.15 per day - and they can purchase tickets on a daily basis rather than having to pay a large lump sum up front for a season ticket.

Simplifying these railcards by putting a blanket 09:30 restriction would be a very bad move and not a good move for a Government at a time when there are fewer job opportunities than before.

Why does this not apply to someone making a journey that is £10 when discounted?

I think the issue there is that if you want a simple fare system, then that fare system isn't going to be able to take into account the specifics of each individual train. We generally charge more for travel before (roughly) 9:30am because most trains across the UK are busier during that period. Charging more (including restricting railcard availability) during that period serves two purposes: It deters people from travelling on many of the most crowded trains, thereby freeing up those trains for people who have to travel at those times. And it maximises revenue by charging more for commuters who are essentially a captured market and more willing to pay more. As you identify there are a minority of routes where trains are actually more crowded later in the morning, and for those trains you could argue that the higher rush hour fares are not helpful. But since those are a minority of trains, it's still the case that overall across the country the higher rush hour fares probably do more good than harm.

You could try having special different rules for those particular trains to reflect their crowding patterns but then you'll end up with a complicated fare system that no-one understands. That's already too much of a problem with all sorts of different restrictions on different routes. Or you could go the other way and just lose rush hour fares and restrictions altogether - but in much of the country that would just exacerbate the problem of rush hour trains being too crowded. That seems to me to suggest that keeping peak hour restrictions, but simplifying them so the rules are more consistent everywhere, is the least bad solution.

I'm not convinced that peak fares really do anything for overcrowding when most people with any flexibility of when they travel will avoid unpleasant crowded trains. More discussion here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/should-peak-fares-in-england-be-abolished.302176/

Making peak hour restrictions the same hour is imo the worst option since it means making many trains expensive and empty for no reason.

It seems to me that the least bad solution (except basically abolishing peak fares on flexible tickets see the linked thread) is a system where the restrictions are different on different routes but easily looked up from the ticket: i.e. what we have.

 

[pwharley]

Has the survey only been sent to people who bought their Senior Railcard from RDG?

Quite possibly.
I purchased mine via trip.com and was unaware of this survey until I read this thread.
I doubt if I will be invited to participate. -

 

[Haywain]

It's just that, if you are starting your longer journey during the morning rush hour, then you'll have to pay the same fare as all the people who aren't eligible for a railcard.

And the problem with that is it creates fare differences which are disproportionate and means that a day out for any distance can only actually be an afternoon out. For example, should I fancy going to the Mid Hants Railway on a Friday, I can't travel before 09:30 so can't get to Alton until 12:09 at a (discounted) fare of £31.60. There are earlier trains but then the fare is (undiscounted) £64.90 - more than double! It's the huge differences that are the problem. That's with the existing restrictions, and I don't think that would be popular on a nationwide basis.

 

[swt_passenger]

I can sort of see the point of having a morning restriction on railcards.

9:30 seems too late though and will stifle day trips. 9:00 should be the maximum.

From the further out parts of the Network area isn’t the Senior Card still valid when Offpeak returns first become available, ie first train to arrive at London Terminal after 1000? I have used them from Eastleigh or Parkway well before 0930 in the past, although nowadays I’m rarely up early enough for it to matter...

 

[Haywain]

From the further out parts of the Network area isn’t the Senior Card still valid when Offpeak returns first become available,

That applies across the whole area, and can mean that it can be earlier for a contra-peak flow than it is for the peak (inevitably, towards London) flow.