GTR Summer Holiday Cancellations

[Nicholas Lewis]

Absolutely - out of all of the Covid cuts which are still missing, they're bringing back the one which really isn't necessary. Seems an incredibly odd decision.

Todays Gatwick starter are the least used services out of the airport unless there's been service perturbation on Southern/Thameslink.

 

[OneOfThe48]

I note that you don't mention using the money to take on and train more drivers (and guards) so that they're not in the same position next school holiday... (or in a year or two)

From what GTR have said the summer changes are unconnected to drivers, but if you’re really interested here’s a quote from the recent Government press release on their nationalisation

Recruit more drivers to reduce delays: GTR’s ongoing train crew recruitment will deliver an additional 75 drivers across Thameslink and Great Northern this year as drivers complete their training, with an uplift of 40 drivers at Southern and Gatwick Express this year too. The increase in drivers will help improve train crew availability and reduce cancellations.

Absolutely - out of all of the Covid cuts which are still missing, they're bringing back the one which really isn't necessary. Seems an incredibly odd decision.

Not if they think it will bring them more money? Which is what really matters

 

[London Trains]

Not if they think it will bring them more money? Which is what really matters

It really isn't, but even so, surely this can't be the case even with the premium fares (also known as a complete and utter scam...), considering the Gatwick Express currently runs around half empty most of the time as it is, a lot of the passengers are going to Brighton, and nearly all the services aren't even running at full length (12 coaches) as it is (they're nearly all 8 coaches, and there's even the odd 4 coach service) - meanwhile you have plenty of other services on the BML rammed full and many even leaving people behind.

 

[SECR 65]

Do we know if GatEx will continue under GTR with seperate branding and fares? Will the trains be blue for GatEx as well?

 

[Chrisgr31]

I am very unconvinced about the loss of the 7.03 from Uckfield. The 6.33, 7.03 and 7.33 are all busy trains and standing room only from Hurst Green I believe. The 7.33 does shift a number of school children from Edenbridge to Oxted who clearly won’t be travelling in the summer.

Whilst people do holiday in the summer they have a choice of 6 weeks in which to do so and most will only take a week or two. I reckon more people will have been off this week. It’s half term, a 4 day week and great weather.

On Tuesday and Thursday the 6.33 ran as 5 instead of 8 coaches. It was standing room only from Edenbridge and 1st Class was declassified. It’s likely therefore in the summer you will lose at most 2 carriages of customers.

The 7.03 is 8 coaches that means 6 worth of them need to be elsewhere. As mentioned by others most will probably want the 6.33.

If it was all about just reducing the service you could just take 2 carriages of the 6.33 and 7.03 and 3 off the 7.33.

They are cutting a train it must be about train crew.

Being cynical I think it’s also about annoying the passengers and discouraging them from travelling. Passenger numbers are indicating that moving 4 units to EMR was a stupid idea as they’ll be needed on the Uckfield line soon so if you can reduce demand it helps!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What i find perplexing is why people only go on holiday in the GTR area but no where else around London!!

 

[Farigiraf]

What this will do is increase the number of people trying to squeeze onto the 1010 'Cruiser' service, which in my experience is already full-and-standing most days leaving Cambridge, presumably for the same reason.

What's stopping strengthening the Cruisers on weekends and holidays from 2x4/8-car to 3x4/12-car?
Every time I've used the non-stops to London outside weekday off-peak, it's been impossible to get a seat boarding at either Cambridge or KGX without getting on right as the train arrives, except for the 1-2 occasions where they've attached an additional 379 or 387 onto the end.
Meanwhile the Thameslinks and GA semifasts regularly depart with less than half seats occupied despite only taking 20 minutes longer.
Seemingly this should be a priority for GN, as you can't increase frequencies due to the Welwyn bottleneck, so this is the only way of increasing the number of seats on this busy flow.

 

[Magdalia]

What's stopping strengthening the Cruisers on weekends and holidays from 2x4/8-car to 3x4/12-car?

Splits and joins need additional train crew, additional platform dwell time and additional paths for ECS moves to and from the carriage sidings.

On Saturdays 0745/0845/0945/1045 ex Kings Lynn are all 12 cars from Cambridge, as are 1654 and 1754 from Kings Cross as far as Cambridge.

On Sundays 0745/0845/0945/1045/1145/1545/1645/1745 ex Kings Lynn are all 12 cars from Cambridge, as are 1024/1124/1224/1324/1424/1724/1824/1924 from Kings Cross as far as Cambridge.

I may have missed some!

 

[Intercity_225]

On Saturdays 0745/0845/0945/1045 ex Kings Lynn are all 12 cars from Cambridge, as are 1654 and 1754 from Kings Cross as far as Cambridge.

Interesting how off-balanced these are between the morning and evening peak. 4 in the morning, with 2 in the evening

 

[MikeWM]

From what GTR have said the summer changes are unconnected to drivers, but if you’re really interested here’s a quote from the recent Government press release on their nationalisation

Well, GTR didn't manage to solve their driver shortage problems for the whole 140 months they had the franchise, despite huge promises early on of the 'biggest driver training program in history' or something along those lines. So after 12 years of endless 'no driver' cancellations, particularly on Saturdays, I'll believe it when I see it.

And it's not exactly reassuring that these weekday cuts are the first thing happening post-nationalisation, it continues the pattern we saw last year from GTR of extending the traditional Christmas period of altered services to include the week *before* Christmas. At this rate they'll be running an altered timetable more weeks than not.

--

What's stopping strengthening the Cruisers on weekends and holidays from 2x4/8-car to 3x4/12-car?

Even on weekdays, what is now the 1010 service from CBG was going to be 12 car from May 2020 (4 cars from KLN and 8 from Ely, joining at CBG) but that never happened due to other things that happened in 2020 and it hasn't reappeared.

Interestingly, in the current weekday timetable most 'cruiser' services have more than sufficient dwell time at Cambridge in the up direction to do at attachment, but most don't have enough time in the down direction to do a detachment.

Meanwhile the Thameslinks and GA semifasts regularly depart with less than half seats occupied despite only taking 20 minutes longer.

Both fill up as they move down the line though, so it would be a bit rubbish for people getting on at say Baldock or Audley End if these were always full and standing from Cambridge.

Certainly I had a period when I was regularly going to London at weekends, maybe 10-15 years back, of picking these up rather than the 'cruisers', especially on Sundays, when 1 8-carriage 'cruiser' every hour was totally inadequate and always very full and standing leaving CBG. There were some murmurs then about adding a second 'cruiser' on Sundays but that never came to pass.

 

[bramling]

What i find perplexing is why people only go on holiday in the GTR area but no where else around London!!

GTR seem to have been at the forefront of a few dubious “innovations”. Look at the off-peak 2tph WGC/Hertford loop, 313/365/455 disposal, reduced lengths on Mondays and Fridays peaks, half term cuts, and now this. Presumably the structure of the management contract has encouraged it.

Guess it’s the ideal proving ground for the DFT to see what they can get away with, and if it causes a stink then Govia get the blame in the public mind.

 

[TransportHub]

There's 8 extra runs to East Grinstead Mondays and Tuesdays off peak so it's 2tph throughout the week for the summer.

That doesn't need any cuts to happen, those trains don't run MTO in the LTP because of a possession opportunity. So the stock goes to Streatham Hill. The crew are all booked on and available as the diagrams run all week and they are needed WThFO.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I live near Maze Hill station and want the Thameslink service to be maintained. It's very useful to be able to get to Cannon Street, Farringdon (for EL) and Kings Cross/St Pancras. It would be great if there was a service to Charing Cross too but I appreciate that this is very unlikely to be reinstated.

Changing for the EL at Woolwich is inconvenient (it's a long walk between stations and across a busy road) and Abbey Wood is a long distance east in order to go west. Taking Thameslink to Farringdon and changing there is much better.

It will be awful if 2tph on Thameslink is downgraded to 1tph.

Regards

I get your point, but with respect the entire line would be better off without the consistently unreliable Thameslink service, it’s usually the first service cancelled and when it’s down to 1toh if that’s cancelled you’re looking at a 2 hour wait, Woolwich & Abbey Wood and points eastwards are better off getting the EL to Farringdon

I agree, I do think its time for some timetable changes now - I don't think the timetable needs to be completely rebuilt as much of it does work well, but some significant tweaks definitely need to be made.

Agreed, it’s clear that areas served by Thameslink are majority not happy with the service and if some routes are going 1tph is it really worth having a Thameslink service, I also agree with @cle in regards to diverting Thameslink’s on to the Hayes line as a stop gap measure before it’s taken over by the Bakerloo.

South East London seems to be being punished for something. Sure it has a slither of Crossrail but other than that the service is contracting before our eyes. I hope us lot on Southern don't end up with a similar treatment. I'm sure they'd be happy to cut Crystal Palace line services to 1 an hour if they could.

I can’t help but agree with you, this was the premise of the 2022 cuts when the Woolwich line lost CHX services they cited “you have the Elizabeth line now plus Thameslink”

No one thought of reducing the Jubilee or Central lines just because the Elizabeth also served Bond Street, likewise they haven’t reduced the Central or District lines from Ealing, the EL was meant to be an additional service not a replacement for an existing one, also Thameslink doesn’t serve the West End.

They encourage people to ditch their cars but when they continually mess with existing links people Wong give cars up.

 

[Mattplans]

I can’t help but agree with you, this was the premise of the 2022 cuts when the Woolwich line lost CHX services they cited “you have the Elizabeth line now plus Thameslink”

Well if SE London is being punished for something, I assure you - the users of the new, fast, air conditioned and super frequent Elizabeth Line at Woolwich are not the ones feeling the pain! Charing X is a loss but by the time one has finished crying about it, there has already been about 8 departures from Woolwich EL on the cheaper TfL fare scale, while you're still waiting for one from Woolwich Arsenal. Not to mention it is cheaper and integrated with the tube. Doesn't sound like a punishment to me?


CHX is at capacity now - and the services that call there are ultimately more important, as their lines are not augmented by TfL services whatsoever, unlike the Greenwich line. I appreciate that historically South London rail lines have 'enjoyed' multi-terminal rail links, but I think it's a different day now and services will evolve. People have come to expect high-frequency, consistent and standardised service (because this is what the rest of the city has), and for most S London rail lines this will mean one line one terminal with fixed interchange points. It will be a simpler system that's more passenger-friendly and intuitive. You'll get the first train that comes and change at the soonest available station for Charing Cross, like every other area of the city does.


Anyway... The MP for Dartford has commented on TL cuts:

Funnily enough, they've addressed it to Angie Doll

Jim Dickson MP for Dartford said:​

My call to reverse the proposed Thameslink service reduction
Thameslink has announced plans to halve the Rainham–Luton service over the summer months - cutting it to just one train per hour.
This will have a real impact on residents using Dartford, Stone Crossing, Greenhithe and Swanscombe stations: reducing capacity for commuters and making it harder for families to travel to London or Medway during the school holidays.
These lines are already overcrowded and unreliable. Dartford has strong rail connections that we must protect - so I am taking this up directly on behalf of residents.
I’ve written to the CEO of Govia Thameslink Railway requesting an urgent meeting and calling on them to rethink these cuts. I have also asked the Rail Minister to intervene.

Attached image is letter from Dickson to the former CEO of GTR complaining about the reductions

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Well if SE London is being punished for something, I assure you - the users of the new, fast, air conditioned and super frequent Elizabeth Line at Woolwich are not the ones feeling the pain! Charing X is a loss but by the time one has finished crying about it, there has already been about 8 departures from Woolwich EL on the cheaper TfL fare scale, while you're still waiting for one from Woolwich Arsenal. Not to mention it is cheaper and integrated with the tube. Doesn't sound like a punishment to me?


CHX is at capacity now - and the services that call there are ultimately more important, as their lines are not augmented by TfL services whatsoever, unlike the Greenwich line. I appreciate that historically South London rail lines have 'enjoyed' multi-terminal rail links, but I think it's a different day now and services will evolve. People have come to expect high-frequency, consistent and standardised service (because this is what the rest of the city has), and for most S London rail lines this will mean one line one terminal with fixed interchange points. It will be a simpler system that's more passenger-friendly and intuitive. You'll get the first train that comes and change at the soonest available station for Charing Cross, like every other area of the city does.


Anyway... The MP for Dartford has commented on TL cuts:

Funnily enough, they've addressed it to Angie Doll

At least hes a Labour MP breaking cover his neighbour Mathew Pennycook (Woolwich & Greenwich) are far more impacted but hes lying low but as a Minister he has toes the line I guess.

 

[bicbasher]

Those peak Southern Norwood Junction to London Bridge and back to Sutton in the evening are an easy cut as they can cram those passengers on Windrush line services.

 

[Ellis101]

Is this the same reason for the Avanti cancellations by not very subtle anti-rail Heidi and her DfT just to "save money"

Why would you cut services during the summer holidays, ORR Data shows how leisure travel is becoming more and more dominant and business travel is and has gotten less popular in response to that this is what we do? There is a few peak services that could be justified as temporary cuts as pointed out in the post above, a lot of this makes zero sense and in my opinion will cost more money in lost revenue and reduced business activity in the corresponding areas than it saves in the short term.

 

[yorksrob]

Not enough 'value' to displace any other of the important routes that run into both CHX and VIC. None of them have space. That's why peak extras are also running from Blackfriars as well as Victoria now. Charlton will still benefit from probably the most trains of any SE metro route 4 tph Slade Green 2 tph Dartford 2 tph Raainham (perhaps running from Cannon St instead?)
Additionally... another crossing at Lewisham Vale Jn.... it takes longer and makes journeys longer

Since when has Victoria Chatham side not had any space ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2026 ==

Or would you be just wanting them to say ‘it helps to reduce taxpayer subsidies’?

I'd rather have them be open and honest about the reasons, than come up with some cockamamie story about "funds being reinvested elsewhere".

 

[NorthKent1989]

Well if SE London is being punished for something, I assure you - the users of the new, fast, air conditioned and super frequent Elizabeth Line at Woolwich are not the ones feeling the pain! Charing X is a loss but by the time one has finished crying about it, there has already been about 8 departures from Woolwich EL on the cheaper TfL fare scale, while you're still waiting for one from Woolwich Arsenal. Not to mention it is cheaper and integrated with the tube. Doesn't sound like a punishment to me?

That only touches a sliver of SE London though, so sure Woolwich and Abbey Wood get the benefits of it.

The EL while is amazing isn’t perfect for every journey and is prone to delays, as I’ve said, the EL was meant to be an additional link not a replacement.

CHX may be full, Victoria isn’t, frankly if Thameslink consider the fast growing North Kent/South East London region an afterthought then they may as well return the service to a SE one rather than have large gaps, I think we are due a timetable recast anyway.

Since when has Victoria Chatham side not had any space ?

Off peak there’s space, I think in the peaks there isn’t hence why some services use Blackfriars in the peak hours.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2026 ==

I appreciate that historically South London rail lines have 'enjoyed' multi-terminal rail links, but I think it's a different day now and services will evolve. People have come to expect high-frequency, consistent and standardised service (because this is what the rest of the city has), and for most S London rail lines this will mean one line one terminal with fixed interchange points. It will be a simpler system that's more passenger-friendly and intuitive. You'll get the first train that comes and change at the soonest available station for Charing Cross, like every other area of the city does.

I don’t think it’s that’s much of a “different day” and just because one part of the city has something doesn’t mean it works for another part, SE London is playing catch up to other parts of London which have had the tube for decades, it’s only the last twenty years we’ve had TfL rail services slowly creeping in.

 

[whoosh]

Going forward, from the first Monday before Christmas Eve there will be a Saturday service on weekdays, returning to normal weekday service on the first Monday after New Years Day. This is due to there being significantly less commuting during the Christmas period.

From May 2027, on GTR it is planned for Fridays to have a timetable based on a Saturday timetable. Catford and Hertford will still have peak hour trains though apparently, and there may be adjustments to cater for school traffic.
This is due to less commuting on Fridays, with compressed workweek and working from home becoming more popular.
I suppose this is similar to the reduction and elimination of Saturday morning and lunchtime peak hours from the 1960s, as the working patterns in the country changed from a six day week with a shorter Saturday, to a five day week.

 

[Intercity_225]

Going forward, from the first Monday before Christmas Eve there will be a Saturday service on weekdays, returning to normal weekday service on the first Monday after New Years Day. This is due to there being significantly less commuting during the Christmas period.

Weren't there complaints about this last Christmas as the services which did run were crush loaded?

 

[devon_belle]

From May 2027, on GTR it is planned for Fridays to have a timetable based on a Saturday timetable.

Hopefully that doesn't mean Horsham-Dorking has no trains before 8:30 or after 18:30 like on a Saturday... Those late evening weekdays services were hard won.

Not sure how any of this is compatible with the push to return to the office.

 

[AndrewE]

Not sure how any of this is compatible with the push to return to the office.

Wasn't that the previous Govt's obsession? or has it been adopted by the current lot too?

 

[devon_belle]

Wasn't that the previous Govt's obsession? or has it been adopted by the current lot too?

Government or no government a lot of companies are pushing it. Fortunately mine is not too strict.

 

[Hadders]

Meanwhile the Thameslinks and GA semifasts regularly depart with less than half seats occupied despite only taking 20 minutes longer.

Those Thameslink trains are full and standing by the time they leave Stevenage.

 

[bramling]

What's stopping strengthening the Cruisers on weekends and holidays from 2x4/8-car to 3x4/12-car?
Every time I've used the non-stops to London outside weekday off-peak, it's been impossible to get a seat boarding at either Cambridge or KGX without getting on right as the train arrives, except for the 1-2 occasions where they've attached an additional 379 or 387 onto the end.

They do have a fair few services booked to run as 12 cars at weekends. In fact, there’s more 12 cars at weekends than on weekdays IIRC. The reason comes down to two things, firstly cost (both in unit mileage and also the cost of drivers to shunt things round at Cambridge), but there’s also a performance risk in doing it (see the various threads mentioning delays accruing at Cambridge whilst units are attached/detached). Also, fitting 12-cars trains into King’s Cross is now more of a problem than in the past, thanks to the increased long-distance timetable.

Meanwhile the Thameslinks and GA semifasts regularly depart with less than half seats occupied despite only taking 20 minutes longer.
Seemingly this should be a priority for GN, as you can't increase frequencies due to the Welwyn bottleneck, so this is the only way of increasing the number of seats on this busy flow.

The other services you mention are heavily used by passengers at the various intermediate stations, and all the more so at the times the fast services don’t serve Letchworth and Royston. In the peaks these services will have all seats taken by latest Hitchin.

I’d say 8 cars is sufficient as a base for the fast services (not so many years ago many were 4-cars), but certainly there’s room for some more 12-cars services, especially around the peak shoulders. With the 379s coming on stream there should be plenty of stock to provide this, though at some point the Peterborough route may need some extra peak capacity too.

I’ve always thought the fast services should go to 12-cars, with the Ely services serving Letchworth all day, and the Kings Lynn ones serving Royston. There’s a number of logistical hurdles to overcome in providing this, however this would release a useful amount capacity for places like Hitchin and Stevenage, as well as giving faster London journeys to London for Letchworth and Royston, also give a link from Royston to Cambridge North and Ely.

 

[Magdalia]

They do have a fair few services booked to run as 12 cars at weekends. In fact, there’s more 12 cars at weekends than on weekdays IIRC. The reason comes down to two things, firstly cost (both in unit mileage and also the cost of drivers to shunt things round at Cambridge), but there’s also a performance risk in doing it (see the various threads mentioning delays accruing at Cambridge whilst units are attached/detached). Also, fitting 12-cars trains into King’s Cross is now more of a problem than in the past, thanks to the increased long-distance timetable.

I did the research for this see here:

On Saturdays 0745/0845/0945/1045 ex Kings Lynn are all 12 cars from Cambridge, as are 1654 and 1754 from Kings Cross as far as Cambridge.

On Sundays 0745/0845/0945/1045/1145/1545/1645/1745 ex Kings Lynn are all 12 cars from Cambridge, as are 1024/1124/1224/1324/1424/1724/1824/1924 from Kings Cross as far as Cambridge.

I may have missed some!

The main reasons why there are more splits and joins on Sunday are:

• the base service is 1tph not 2tph
• it is the only day when the splits and joins can be done "old style" in platform 1 at Cambridge, with the London end unit being left in the platform instead of having to go to and from the carriage sidings

I’ve always thought the fast services should go to 12-cars, with the Ely services serving Letchworth all day, and the Kings Lynn ones serving Royston. There’s a number of logistical hurdles to overcome in providing this

The main logistical obstacle here is fleet downtime for maintenance at Hornsey. If the SX trains are 12 cars all day then the "third unit" doesn't get onto Hornsey for maintenance. Most maintenance on the class 379/387 fleets takes place between the morning and evening peak, because at night most of the fleet is stabled at the country end of the line.

 

[bramling]

I did the research for this see here:

There’s a couple more for Saturdays
1645 Kings Lynn-King’s Cross
1854 King’s Cross-Kings Lynn

• it is the only day when the splits and joins can be done "old style" in platform 1 at Cambridge, with the London end unit being left in the platform instead of having to go to and from the carriage sidings

Guess they can only get away with that because of the thinner service on Sundays. I reckon this would cause performance carnage on other days.

The main logistical obstacle here is fleet downtime for maintenance at Hornsey. If the SX trains are 12 cars all day then the "third unit" doesn't get onto Hornsey for maintenance. Most maintenance on the class 379/387 fleets takes place between the morning and evening peak, because at night most of the fleet is stabled at the country end of the line.

Agreed.

 

[whoosh]

Hopefully that doesn't mean Horsham-Dorking has no trains before 8:30 or after 18:30 like on a Saturday... Those late evening weekdays services were hard won.

Not sure how any of this is compatible with the push to return to the office.

Earlier 'start up' to match weekdays was mentioned (which I forgot to mention!). I expect a weekday finish time would be matched on a route with such an early finish on a Saturday.

The main point is there will be less peak hour extras on a Friday, with the base service being similar to a Saturday. Schools traffic was mentioned as needing to be catered for, so there will be places where they cant just 'copy and paste' a Saturday timetable in on a Friday.

 

[bramling]

Earlier 'start up' to match weekdays was mentioned (which I forgot to mention!). I expect a weekday finish time would be matched on a route with such an early finish on a Saturday.

The main point is there will be less peak hour extras on a Friday, with the base service being similar to a Saturday. Schools traffic was mentioned as needing to be catered for, so there will be places where they cant just 'copy and paste' a Saturday timetable in on a Friday.

It would be messy on GN.

Pre last December when there were the Letchworth-King’s Cross fast peak services it would have been quite easy to remove these. Now the peak stopping service originates from Letchworth it leaves a fundamentally different service on Mondays to Thursdays. Meanwhile on the Peterborough route the Saturday extras are timed to suit days out in London rather than work travel, as are 12-car lengthenings on the Fen Line.

This whole situation is a mess. If anything it would be better to run a full morning peak on Friday and trim out some evening peak services, as it seems to be more the evening peak which has reduced demand compared to other days.