GTR Summer Holiday Cancellations

[Bletchleyite]

That's even crazier, how many regular commuters take holiday in Oct and Feb?

Most of them that have kids. And even more will work from home for the week. The railway is obviously quieter then.

 

[nw1]

Most of them that have kids. And even more will work from home for the week. The railway is obviously quieter then.

Does seem the world has changed; when I made rail enthusiast trips to places such as Woking, East Croydon and Reading while still at school (i.e during the school holidays by necessity) the evening peak always seemed very busy. Even during August I remember a procession of well-filled trains in the evening peak at Woking in the mid-80s.

 

[Magdalia]

The VAT reduction for attractions is at corporate level. No guarantee of it getting passed on to the public.

This was covered in Radio 4's More or Less this morning.

For previous examples of VAT reduction like this, very little got passed through into retail prices.

Some of the biggest attractions may feel the need to reduce prices, because of fear of bad publicity if they don't, but most will just pocket the money.

Does seem the world has changed; when I made rail enthusiast trips to places such as Woking, East Croydon and Reading while still at school (i.e during the school holidays by necessity) the evening peak always seemed very busy. Even during August I remember a procession of well-filled trains in the evening peak at Woking in the mid-80s.

What's changed is the number of households with both parents working, and the number of single parents.

 

[ScotGG]

Lots of parents do take leave at half term or summer - but then use trains for leisure. Though they won't if services are cut back so severely in places to 1tph.

 

[cle]

Random one, and not forever (big Bakerloo take-over fan) - but could Hayes go all Thameslink, and remove it from the SE network?

It would still need at least 4tph - if they are still fast and slow, I'm not sure - but it's within London, it's 12 car if needed, and it's not as critical to interwork and interline with other routes. Stock is more metro.

And would keep the routes through Dartford more uniform.

Could one even get to 6tph Hayes to Blackfriars via London Bridge? And then one day it goes over to the Bakerloo.

 

[London Trains]

A timetable recast is probably due now, especially around the Thameslink network

I agree, I do think its time for some timetable changes now - I don't think the timetable needs to be completely rebuilt as much of it does work well, but some significant tweaks definitely need to be made.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Lots of parents with school age children take holiday at half term, unless they can make other arrangements for child care.

Indeed its half term this week and i travelled on one of the peak Thameslink (not an extra) slated for removal in the list that runs via Redhill this morning. It was already well loaded leaving Redhill and had plenty of standees from Croydon.

Commuting is down this week as there are spaces in downside car park at Redhill at 0815 which is usually full well before 8. Then i came back mid afternoon and there was plenty of fresh air yet they aren't removing these ones.

Be interesting to know whether this was instigated by DfT and whether DFTO will now take a more pragmatic approach

 

[MrJeeves]

and whether DFTO will now take a more pragmatic approach

If the request comes from DfT, why would DfT Operator decide to change it?

While ownership of GTR is transitioning to DfT Operator as Thameslink Southern Great Northern Ltd, almost all of the staff throughout the organisation will remain put.

The timetabling team will still be the same timetabling team under DfTO as it was under GTR.

They didn't just come up with this list of cancellations for a laugh under GTR, only for it to move to DfTO and suddenly get thrown in the bin.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If the request comes from DfT, why would DfT Operator decide to change it?

While ownership of GTR is transitioning to DfT Operator as Thameslink Southern Great Northern Ltd, almost all of the staff throughout the organisation will remain put.

The timetabling team will still be the same timetabling team under DfTO as it was under GTR.

They didn't just come up with this list of cancellations for a laugh under GTR, only for it to move to DfTO and suddenly get thrown in the bin.

What perhaps I was valiantly hoping for was that as the DfT team managing the train operators has now been transferred to DFTO they would be better directed by proper railway professionals ie Haines/Hynes to take a more pragmatic approach about the "right" services to remove that are genuinely lightly loaded.

From the list presented above Southerns targeted services are largely rush hour additionals. On Thameslink they don't have additionals on the core routes the peak extras are to Grinstead/Orpington which arent being removed. Yet on Thameslink Brighton Line service groups they are cancelling services that run in the peak period and leaving only an hourly service. Some of the gaps could be dealt with by additional calls on other services and maybe they will do that when we get nearer to July but unlikely.

 

[OxtedL]

Controversial opinion -

The Greenwich Thameslinks work fine most of the time, and are popular with users of the North Kent line. St Pancras and Farringdon are great to have a direct train to. No need to scrap them.

When Thameslink are short of drivers they (probably rightly) pinch from Greenwich to keep the Suttons going. For nearly all journeys on North Kent there is a perfectly fine alternative in the Southeastern service, even at peak times when it can get a little cosy but still get people home.

I do get that this is less true beyond Dartford and they need to up their game there.

It's the same problem of not enough drivers which has caused Great Northern inners to continue to have poor off peak frequency. It's right to complain but it does seem to be slowly improving.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Random one, and not forever (big Bakerloo take-over fan) - but could Hayes go all Thameslink, and remove it from the SE network?

It would still need at least 4tph - if they are still fast and slow, I'm not sure - but it's within London, it's 12 car if needed, and it's not as critical to interwork and interline with other routes. Stock is more metro.

And would keep the routes through Dartford more uniform.

Could one even get to 6tph Hayes to Blackfriars via London Bridge? And then one day it goes over to the Bakerloo.

I like the idea how would Hayes services cross over to the Thameslink’s though? Sorry if it’s a dumb question

Controversial opinion -

The Greenwich Thameslinks work fine most of the time, and are popular with users of the North Kent line. St Pancras and Farringdon are great to have a direct train to. No need to scrap them.

When Thameslink are short of drivers they (probably rightly) pinch from Greenwich to keep the Suttons going. For nearly all journeys on North Kent there is a perfectly fine alternative in the Southeastern service, even at peak times when it can get a little cosy but still get people home.

I do get that this is less true beyond Dartford and they need to up their game there.

It's the same problem of not enough drivers which has caused Great Northern inners to continue to have poor off peak frequency. It's right to complain but it does seem to be slowly improving.

In spite of Kings Cross and Farringdon being a draw (Farringdon can be reached via EL with a change at Abbey Wood or Woolwich) Thameslink is actually a major downgrade on the line considering the far more popular CHX-Gillingham semi fast service it replaced.

If we were given the choice between the old semi fast or the current Thameslink more would pick the old semi fast

Thameslink only seems popular for stations west of Greenwich but frankly the whole service needs to be binned

 

[cle]

I like the idea how would Hayes services cross over to the Thameslink’s though? Sorry if it’s a dumb question

I think - think - there is a route from Ladywell to get onto the Thameslink platforms at London Bridge - but you'd have to do a few crossing moves. From memory, it might be neater to do via Lewisham, so that you're closer to the Thameslink lines (and have more opportunities to cross than from the fasts)

so it'd be Hayes - Lewisham - London Bridge - Kentish Town / Luton... @ 4tph.

fast paths to go on somewhere else - maybe a service via Sidcup has to be swapped for the Lewisham increase to TL.

 

[westcoaster]

When Thameslink are short of drivers they (probably rightly) pinch from Greenwich to keep the Suttons going. For nearly all journeys on North Kent there is a perfectly fine alternative in the Southeastern service, even at peak times when it can get a little cosy but still get people home.

There is no cross cover for drivers on the routes you mention. No drivers sign both routes to take from one to another.

 

[zin92]

I like the idea how would Hayes services cross over to the Thameslink’s though? Sorry if it’s a dumb question



In spite of Kings Cross and Farringdon being a draw (Farringdon can be reached via EL with a change at Abbey Wood or Woolwich) Thameslink is actually a major downgrade on the line considering the far more popular CHX-Gillingham semi fast service it replaced.

If we were given the choice between the old semi fast or the current Thameslink more would pick the old semi fast

Thameslink only seems popular for stations west of Greenwich but frankly the whole service needs to be binned

I live near Maze Hill station and want the Thameslink service to be maintained. It's very useful to be able to get to Cannon Street, Farringdon (for EL) and Kings Cross/St Pancras. It would be great if there was a service to Charing Cross too but I appreciate that this is very unlikely to be reinstated.

Changing for the EL at Woolwich is inconvenient (it's a long walk between stations and across a busy road) and Abbey Wood is a long distance east in order to go west. Taking Thameslink to Farringdon and changing there is much better.

It will be awful if 2tph on Thameslink is downgraded to 1tph.

Regards

 

[London Trains]

Now officially confirmed by GTR:

Changes to services this summer:

Why are we making these temporary changes?

We are building on the approach taken in previous school holidays by temporarily aligning some of our Southern, Thameslink, Great Northern and Gatwick Express services with the changes in usage that we see over holidays periods.

Travel patterns change over the summer as fewer people use peak time services and demand for off-peak services changes, where some routes see fewer people travel during the day or demand for early morning trains to key airports increases as people go on holiday.

To respond to those changes, will be making temporary changes across our network between Saturday 18 July and the start of September. This will see a combination of earlier trains running between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria to make it easier for holiday makers to travel by train, more services during the middle of the day for some stations to make it easier for people to go on days out.

A small number of services will also be withdrawn on some routes where the number of peak time or off-peak passengers falls over the school holidays.

Some of the changes are detailed below, but as they vary route to route and there will also be changes to services due to bank holidays and planned engineering work over this period, we are encouraging people to check before they travel. A summary of the changes is included below, and Journey Planners have been updated with the alterations to services so you can check your journeys.

These changes to align services with the usage we see over these quieter school holiday periods unlocks savings that can then be reinvested to support and improve services throughout the year.

Some of the temporary changes we are making to services include:


Gatwick Express:

To make it easier for holiday makers to travel to and from the airport, on Saturdays and Mondays between Saturday 18 July and Monday 7 September, there will be additional early morning Gatwick Express services between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport. These will depart London Victoria at 03:40 and depart Gatwick Airport at 04:35.


Great Northern:

There will be some small changes to services between Cambridge/Letchworth and London on weekdays between Monday 20 July and Friday 28 August.

> The 08:45 service from Letchworth Garden City to London King’s Cross will not operate.
> The 16:54 service from London King’s Cross to Cambridge will not operate, with the 16:27 service from London King’s Cross to Letchworth Garden City being extended through to Cambridge to maintain connections between Letchworth and Cambridge.


Southern:

Between Monday 20 July and Friday 28 August, the changes will see:

> Eight additional trains running between East Grinstead and London Victoria on Mondays and Tuesdays – providing a half-hourly service during the middle of the day.

At the same time, as peak time usage falls over the summer school holiday, fewer peak services will operate on weekdays between:

> Epsom and London Victoria via Carshalton - the standard services between Epsom/Dorking and London Victoria will continue to run at half-hourly intervals, with some additional trains at the busiest times.
> Norwood Junction and London Bridge via Sydenham - the standard services between London Victoria and London Bridge will continue to run at half-hourly intervals, with some additional trains at the busiest times.
> Littlehampton, Bognor Regis and Eastbourne, and London Bridge - half-hourly services will remain available to London Victoria, with connections to London Bridge services available at Preston Park, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges or East Croydon.
> Uckfield and London Bridge – the 07:03 from Uckfield to London Bridge will not operate, with services running at the standard hourly frequency on this route


Thameslink:

Between Saturday 18 July and Saturday 29 August, fewer services will operate between:

> Bedford and Three Bridges on weekdays - services will still be half-hourly for most of the day.
> Cambridge and Brighton on weekdays, with some services starting or ending at different stations. Services will still be half-hourly for most of the day, and there will be some extra services between London Bridge and Brighton to maintain connections. The extra services between Brighton and London - a 07:39 from Brighton to London Bridge and a 17:15 from London Bridge to Brighton - will be operated by Southern and will have the same stopping pattern as the Thameslink services south of London that would typically operate at those times.
> Luton and Rainham from Monday to Saturday - services will still be half-hourly during the weekday peaks when trains are busier, with hourly services running during the middle of the day and on Saturdays. Alternative services are also available between London and Luton (Thameslink) and between London and Greenwich/Dartford/Rainham (Southeastern).

 

[AndrewE]

Now officially confirmed by GTR:

Which doesn't actually answer its own initial question "Why?" does it? You might take their successive statements/bluster to mean that they are cutting commuter services to bolster Gatwick services (by one), but I guess that is the fig-leaf to ensure that the directors don't forfeit their chance of a gong (or a bonus)...

 

[OneOfThe48]

Which doesn't actually answer its own initial question "Why?" does it? You might take their successive statements/bluster to mean that they are cutting commuter services to bolster Gatwick services (by one), but I guess that is the fig-leaf to ensure that the directors don't forfeit their chance of a gong (or a bonus)...

Yes it does answer the question - ‘These changes to align services with the usage we see over these quieter school holiday periods unlocks savings that can then be reinvested to support and improve services throughout the year’

It saves money

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Its resource driven (like Avanti) - they cannot get enought drivers driving trains to cover the full timetable over the summer. These are to improve performance figures by removing services to increase the chance of running whats left.

This is the reason why? is it because of drivers being on their summer holidays?

 

[AndrewE]

Yes it does answer the question - ‘These changes to align services with the usage we see over these quieter school holiday periods unlocks savings that can then be reinvested to support and improve services throughout the year’

It saves money

"Unlocks savings?" I suspect it cuts the number of uncovered turns of duty (and cancelled trains) for a while, which saves face but doesn't save money - apart from cutting compensation to people who can't claim now because their train "wasn't in the timetable!"

How does this generate money to be "reinvested to support and improve services throughout the year?"

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Yes it does answer the question - ‘These changes to align services with the usage we see over these quieter school holiday periods unlocks savings that can then be reinvested to support and improve services throughout the year’

It saves money

What on earth? This feels worse than the austerity years.

 

[devon_belle]

17:41 Victoria to Horsham will only run between Victoria and Dorking

Interesting they would cut the clockface hourly train to Horsham not the 17:25 peak extra. Especially as the 17:25 omits calls at Balham and Ewell East, meaning that it will be 2 hours between trains from Balham/Ewell East to Horsham in the evening peak (or, probably more importantly, 1 hour between trains from these destinations to Dorking – 17:11 to 18:11 ex Victoria). Maybe not a huge problem but these trains and the Epsom peak extras are very used in my experience, even last Summer.

Disappointing decision from a commuter perspective. I guess I'll find out how busy it is!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

South East London seems to be being punished for something. Sure it has a slither of Crossrail but other than that the service is contracting before our eyes. I hope us lot on Southern don't end up with a similar treatment. I'm sure they'd be happy to cut Crystal Palace line services to 1 an hour if they could.

 

[Kite159]

But don't worry, you have an extra overpriced Gatwick Express service to cater for the demand between Victoria & Gatwick

 

[OneOfThe48]

"Unlocks savings?" I suspect it cuts the number of uncovered turns of duty (and cancelled trains) for a while, which saves face but doesn't save money - apart from cutting compensation to people who can't claim now because their train "wasn't in the timetable!"

How does this generate money to be "reinvested to support and improve services throughout the year?"

Running fewer trains will mean they spend less money operating the route than if they had kept the full services in place

Saving that money means they can reallocate it elsewhere - whether that’s supporting service increases on other routes or preventing/lessening matching cuts that would have to be made elsewhere.

Or would you be just wanting them to say ‘it helps to reduce taxpayer subsidies’?

Which they have in some of their press comments

 

[AndrewE]

Running fewer trains will mean they spend less money operating the route than if they had kept the full services in place

Saving that money means they can reallocate it elsewhere - whether that’s supporting service increases on other routes or preventing/lessening matching cuts that would have to be made elsewhere

What service increases? I didn't spot any, maybe you could tell us which ones you have deduced (other than the single Gatwick train.)
I note that you don't mention using the money to take on and train more drivers (and guards) so that they're not in the same position next school holiday... (or in a year or two)

 

[JonathanH]

But don't worry, you have an extra overpriced Gatwick Express service to cater for the demand between Victoria & Gatwick

...and indeed the future promise of quite unnecessary Victoria to Gatwick shuttles returning in December, triumphantly announced by the DfT as being a benefit of nationalisation.

 

[Mattplans]

South East London seems to be being punished for something.

Right. A casualty of the railway being controlled by the national operator rather than TfL. Even on the chatham side, 2 Vic-Orpngton trains per hour are being cancelled because of a blockade at.... Charing Cross.

 

[SECR 65]

What service increases? I didn't spot any, maybe you could tell us which ones you have deduced (other than the single Gatwick train.)
I note that you don't mention using the money to take on and train more drivers (and guards) so that they're not in the same position next school holiday... (or in a year or two)

There's 8 extra runs to East Grinstead Mondays and Tuesdays off peak so it's 2tph throughout the week for the summer.

 

[London Trains]

...and indeed the future promise of quite unnecessary Victoria to Gatwick shuttles returning in December, triumphantly announced by the DfT as being a benefit of nationalisation.

Absolutely - out of all of the Covid cuts which are still missing, they're bringing back the one which really isn't necessary. Seems an incredibly odd decision.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Absolutely - out of all of the Covid cuts which are still missing, they're bringing back the one which really isn't necessary. Seems an incredibly odd decision.

Gatwick Express are doing quite a strong advertising campaign at the moment. The Treasury must want that premium fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==

Absolutely - out of all of the Covid cuts which are still missing, they're bringing back the one which really isn't necessary. Seems an incredibly odd decision.

Yes, they could have brought back the old Brighton express services.