• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

HS2 should stop at more stations in the Chilterns

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
112,941
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The big issue with any of these parkways is that you would generate a huge amount of inward commuting to London from this station

HS2 would not carry traffic from this station to London, just as it is not intended to carry traffic from Manchester Airport Parkway to Manchester.

, plus the local traffic in that area would become horrific.

It wouldn't because of the above.

If you left it as a rail led site, the usage probably wouldn't be high enough to justify (at least at the HS2 EWR interchange).

Do you not think the other Parkways are justified? Why is London different?

I think the only sensible site for such a station is where HS2 meets the Aylesbury to Princes Risborough line, or at Wendover but really, I don't think it's that necessary/useful as it will likely slow down London-Birmingham by 3-5mins for limited benefit.

As almost all journeys are suburb to city centre I disagree hugely. It would reduce M40 traffic significantly.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
5,607
The big issue with any of these parkways is that you would generate a huge amount of inward commuting to London from this station, plus the local traffic in that area would become horrific. If you left it as a rail led site, the usage probably wouldn't be high enough to justify (at least at the HS2 EWR interchange). I think the only sensible site for such a station is where HS2 meets the Aylesbury to Princes Risborough line, or at Wendover but really, I don't think it's that necessary/useful as it will likely slow down London-Birmingham by 3-5mins for limited benefit.
I think this is in a scenario where HS2 ends up running empty-ass services London<->Birmingham because of excess spare stock and paths... in that case, those would be the candidates for an interim call...

I am not sure if the route North of Aylesbury Vale Parkway to Calvert and EWR has been retained, I know at one time there was talk of re-opening and linking into East West Rail. If that were to happen then a station at the junction might have made sense, with EWR trains calling, together with some HS2 services and an extended service from Aylesbury VP terminating there. Its many years since I visited that area however, and my memory is road access was poor, so making it into a parkway station as well may be a problem.

I think its fair to say that finacially it isn't going to be viable unlless there are some major changes in the way major project are funded and delivered. The other problem is that as soon as you ask passengers to change trains they quite rightly get jittery as the current 'siloed' rail network arrangements dont handle connections well, either when things go wrong, or from a ticketing point of view.
Good news (rare, I know!) - that route has basically been rebuilt by the HS2 project due to access, including, I recall - single track but 90mph line speed from AVP up to EWR. It will be reinstated fully.

However there is no current commercial plan to run services up to MKC - and platform capacity would be tricky - but in theory it will be possible with future appetite. Maybe Aylesbury - AVP - Bletchley - MKC - Northampton service. I can't see it working into Chiltern territory, or the point, really.
 

al78

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2013
Messages
2,600
I think that depends on your point of view.

One person's "person with valid concern" might be another person's "whinger". For example, I think that people that go on and on complaining about immigration are whingers, but others disagree.

Likewise, someone who objects to a new major road through their local countryside might be a "NIMBY whinger" to one person, or a "person with valid concerns" to another.....

For clarification I do on the whole support HS2.
There are national interests then there are personal interests, the two do not always align and people will always complain about things that they perceive will negatively impact them. Trying to trivialise or patronise them because you don't agree with them is denying fundamental human emotion and is, in a sense, a variant of NIMBYISM, focusing on a subset of the picture that you like or don't like instead of the whole thing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

As almost all journeys are suburb to city centre I disagree hugely. It would reduce M40 traffic significantly.
I must admit that every time I have used the M40, it has been free flowing, the only exceptions being when someone has been careless enough to crash their vehicle, so unless I have been extraordinarily lucky over the last 20 years, I am struggling to see any significant benefit in reducing traffic on a normally free flowing motorway. Reduce it on the M6 and I'm interested.
 

Zomboid

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2025
Messages
2,210
Location
Oxford
Good news (rare, I know!) - that route has basically been rebuilt by the HS2 project due to access, including, I recall - single track but 90mph line speed from AVP up to EWR. It will be reinstated fully
I think the civils will permit a second track to be laid at some future juncture, too. Though probably not soon, if there's going to be a 90mph railway with no initial traffic...
 

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
2,369
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
I can't see it working into Chiltern territory, or the point, really.
I had thought more of extending the Chiltern service from AVP to an EWR/HS2 station, and terminating at the new station with through EWR and HS2 services, but for it to work you would need some co-ordination of timetables which is where the current siloed approach starts to fail.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
5,607
I had thought more of extending the Chiltern service from AVP to an EWR/HS2 station, and terminating at the new station with through EWR and HS2 services, but for it to work you would need some co-ordination of timetables which is where the current siloed approach starts to fail.
HS2 passes to the south / west of Aylesbury, so isn't the right side for AVP of linking to the Chiltern line/s.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,443
Location
Isle of Man
The well-to-do NIMBYs there (and the local councils who delayed access roads for spurious reasons) contributed significantly to cost inflation on the project
No they didn’t.

The fact HS2’s management couldn’t find their own buttocks with both hands and a map is why HS2- the purest most brilliant white of elephants- is costing so much.

That, and the contractors’ greed. But for why the contractors have been allowed to take the piss, see point 1.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There are national interests then there are personal interests, the two do not always align and people will always complain about things that they perceive will negatively impact them. Trying to trivialise or patronise them because you don't agree with them is denying fundamental human emotion and is, in a sense, a variant of NIMBYISM, focusing on a subset of the picture that you like or don't like instead of the whole thing.
Indeed. The people having to deal with this 140-mile-long concrete scar across the countryside have legitimate concerns. Now whether those legitimate concerns outweigh the benefits of HS2 is a matter of opinion.

Given that I think HS2 is a pointless waste of money egged on by crooked construction company lobbyists, you can probably imagine what side of the fence I sit on.

But even if you think HS2 is the most important thing in the history of the world, the fact is people living near it are going to be subjected to 10-15 years of hell before a single train even starts running. Of course they’re going to be upset.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

NIMBYs will always NIMBY, that's why there's a term for it and they're not known as 'people with valid concerns'.
It’s a way of dismissing people, nothing more.

Look at Rachel Reeves. Demanding airport expansion at Heathrow, somewhere where she didn’t live. Threw a fit when Leeds/Bradford wanted to expand, as she did live there.

My view is that any politician who tramples over local opposition for a major construction project should have to have a pneumatic drill operated outside their bedroom window from 6am to 11pm every day until the project is completed. See how they like it. If it’s such an important project they won’t mind taking one for the team.
 
Last edited:

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,630
The big issue with any of these parkways is that you would generate a huge amount of inward commuting to London from this station, plus the local traffic in that area would become horrific. If you left it as a rail led site, the usage probably wouldn't be high enough to justify (at least at the HS2 EWR interchange). I think the only sensible site for such a station is where HS2 meets the Aylesbury to Princes Risborough line, or at Wendover but really, I don't think it's that necessary/useful as it will likely slow down London-Birmingham by 3-5mins for limited benefit.
It would slow it down by more than that. The roads by Stoke Mandeville would need massive improvements, the relief road HS2 has paid for is only 2 lanes.
 

Sorcerer

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
2,043
Location
Liverpool
Manchester Airport won't be. It is not at the current airport station location, it is a few miles away. It is primarily a Parkway station to be reached by car (and secondarily bus). Just like an M25 parkway would be; it'll have the tram too though. It is not a regional rail interchange and isn't really intended to be one.

OOC serves a different purpose i.e. interchange primarily with the Liz. It is not a parkway station and in my understanding will have no dedicated car parking at all.
I was under the impression it would've served closer to the airport and the fact it doesn't is kind of a disappointment in my opinion. Airport stations are among the most ideal spots for urban stations.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
4,826
I was under the impression it would've served closer to the airport and the fact it doesn't is kind of a disappointment in my opinion. Airport stations are among the most ideal spots for urban stations.
My understanding was the proposed site was the other side of the M56 to the airport, only 700m from Terminal 2.
 

Farigiraf

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2023
Messages
1,140
Location
Bridge on the River Cam
My view is that any politician who tramples over local opposition for a major construction project should have to have a pneumatic drill operated outside their bedroom window from 6am to 11pm every day until the project is completed. See how they like it. If it’s such an important project they won’t mind taking one for the team.
I'm guessing you're fine with the gradual decline of pretty much any and all public services (or things that are but aren't perceived as such) over the next few years then?
As the political reality of not just the UK, but every democratic country, is that nobody has the time for making sure everyone is happy. Those in charge look for the least worst option, one that achieves the most benefits while harming the least. HS2 is one of these cases. Could they have spent more time on it to optimise it even further? 100%. But we'd be looking at a completion date of at least 2050 then, by which time most people will have given up on WCML rail travel because of high prices and overcrowding.
 

Peter Sarf

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
9,573
Location
Croydon
So why did every other country add more stops then? How does your worldview explain that?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Why would they be? The station will increase their house prices
They got the stations but not necessarily a train service of any useful frequency serving them.

Perhaps HS2's problem was they were not cynical enough to build stations with no intention of encouraging their use.

Realistically intermediate stops on a high speed railway are a capacity killer. A capacity which sadly will not be needed unless HS2 gets beyond phase1.
..................................

How come Paris has significantly more space for tunneling? It's got a metro network denser than the tube yet there's plenty of space for numerous RERs.

.................................
It is not the underground lines that are the problem. The problem is the deeper foundations of the tall buildings London has. Paris has a lot fewer buildings with deep foundations.
 

Sorcerer

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
2,043
Location
Liverpool
Indeed. The people having to deal with this 140-mile-long concrete scar across the countryside have legitimate concerns. Now whether those legitimate concerns outweigh the benefits of HS2 is a matter of opinion.

Given that I think HS2 is a pointless waste of money egged on by crooked construction company lobbyists, you can probably imagine what side of the fence I sit on.

But even if you think HS2 is the most important thing in the history of the world, the fact is people living near it are going to be subjected to 10-15 years of hell before a single train even starts running. Of course they’re going to be upset.
I mean at least both sides can agree that it's been an absolute shambles that shouldn't have gone on for as long as it has.

It’s a way of dismissing people, nothing more.

Look at Rachel Reeves. Demanding airport expansion at Heathrow, somewhere where she didn’t live. Threw a fit when Leeds/Bradford wanted to expand, as she did live there.

My view is that any politician who tramples over local opposition for a major construction project should have to have a pneumatic drill operated outside their bedroom window from 6am to 11pm every day until the project is completed. See how they like it. If it’s such an important project they won’t mind taking one for the team.
It's kind of a two-way street though. The country knows what it wants but doesn't want to do what it takes to get there. The fact is both Heathrow and HS2 are critical infrastructure, and while I understand some people in the affected areas won't like it (which is why I actually think public consultation should take place before contracts are signed and locked in rather than making changes later) the country wouldn't get anywhere if we gave them too much power.

From an absolute standpoint, NIMBYs are arguing from a position of selfishness. They may be the most immediately affected by construction projects, but rail passengers who would appreciate greater WCML capacity or faster journeys between major cities, or airport passengers who cannot stand Heathrow Airport or having the cost of slot constraints against airlines being passed on to them, would also be affected, even more so in the long-term.

My understanding was the proposed site was the other side of the M56 to the airport, only 700m from Terminal 2.
Not terrible by any stretch but not optimal for connectivity. Probably the best it could've gotten, but I imagine many passengers probably wouldn't enjoy lugging 700m with their luggage to the terminal.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
4,826
Not terrible by any stretch but not optimal for connectivity. Probably the best it could've gotten, but I imagine many passengers probably wouldn't enjoy lugging 700m with their luggage to the terminal.
There was also talk of extending Metrolink in a Wythenshawe Loop so both station and airport would be served.
 

Farigiraf

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2023
Messages
1,140
Location
Bridge on the River Cam
They got the stations but not necessarily a train service of any useful frequency serving them.

Perhaps HS2's problem was they were not cynical enough to build stations with no intention of encouraging their use.

Realistically intermediate stops on a high speed railway are a capacity killer. A capacity which sadly will not be needed unless HS2 gets beyond phase1.
One to watch in France is Ilisto, also known as Kevin Speed. They plan to run an hourly service connecting Paris with Strasbourg, Lille and Lyon, calling at all the little currently useless stations along the way. The two big questions are:
- If there actually is capacity to run such a service, why have SNCF continually emphasised there isn't (I think we know already - because airline-style nonstop intercity rail is more profitable. But maybe Ilisto will make SNCF actually admit it.)
- Will this actually encourage usage? The stations themselves are still in suboptimal locations but frequency is holding them back a lot.
Of course this is different to HS2 where the capacity, at least originally, was planned to be fully utilised, while a lot of French LGVs only have 3-4tph along them. But it will provide evidence as to what kind of usage figures these stations can get if you, at least to some extent, encourage their use.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,443
Location
Isle of Man
Those in charge look for the least worst option, one that achieves the most benefits while harming the least.
Do they heck.

But if the benefits are so brilliant then the politicians won’t mind experiencing the same things that people living next to a construction site have to experience. It’s only fair. They insist it is necessary to do the construction, so they can share the joy. It’s only a bit of noise and dust, surely they’d not object? It’s for the greater good and all that. What do you mean they don’t want a pneumatic drill in *their* back yard?

Or are you actually agreeing with me: the “least worst option” always ends up with politicians- usually receiving healthy “donations” from construction firms- screwing over the poorest people in society?

From an absolute standpoint, NIMBYs are arguing from a position of selfishness.
They’re no more or less selfish than the politicians who insist that The Thing must be built, and The Thing must be built right next to the poor people’s houses.

Ever noticed how these big construction projects never go through the areas where the influential politicians live?

We even saw that with HS2, George Osborne (who was an MP in Cheshire) made sure the line didn’t go through his constituency. And the line through suburban Birmingham very carefully goes through all the poor areas and not the rich ones. Where the rich people’s land absolutely can’t be avoided then they get a tunnel. Weird.

It’s the same everywhere. Here the government have decided we must have an on-shore wind farm. Two sites were selected as the best. One was near where the Chief Minister lives, the other was at the other end of the island. Care to guess which one was objectively decided by the government to be the better choice?
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,414
It’s a way of dismissing people, nothing more.
I agree. It (NIMBY) is a mildly insulting term, used to shut down debate by adding a value-judgment that pro-development people are morally superior to development-sceptics. Neither side is morally superior to the other. There are usually pros and cons to both sides in these kinds of situations.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,443
Location
Isle of Man
I mean at least both sides can agree that it's been an absolute shambles that shouldn't have gone on for as long as it has.
It should never have been started, those of us who are against it have always said it would end up being a disaster. I can’t say I take any pleasure in being in proven right.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
5,362
I agree. It (NIMBY) is a mildly insulting term, used to shut down debate by adding a value-judgment that pro-development people are morally superior to development-sceptics. Neither side is morally superior to the other. There are usually pros and cons to both sides in these kinds of situations.
It sometimes is. But it also captures an attitude to development that deserves skewering. There are plenty of cases (see Peckham in the last week) where NIMBY objections work against their stated objectives, and it's clear that they are not realistically doing anything more than objecting to change.
 

Backroom_boy

Member
Joined
28 Dec 2019
Messages
582
Location
London
The one basis on which I'd agree with this is that I think not having an M25 Parkway (I think it would be around Handy Cross if I recall?) was a serious mistake. Most people don't live in city centres, so having to travel into London to go to Manchester (or traipse across Birmingham having taken a slow Chiltern train there) will seriously dissuade many from using it. 2B has this for suburban Mancunians in the form of the airport station which would replace Stockport's Parkway role, but yet there isn't one for the London area (OOC isn't really that).

That is probably the only stop I would add however, and I would have all trains stop there, and look to build good coach networks around it too.
OT but I've often thought there should be an integrated car hire/tube station on the perimeter of the m25; remove a good chunk of hire cars going through the centre of London.
 

Farigiraf

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2023
Messages
1,140
Location
Bridge on the River Cam
Do they heck.
Ideally, yes.
Of course often there are other factors in play too - though corruption isn't one I'd necessarily bring up when it comes to HS2.
It should never have been started, those of us who are against it have always said it would end up being a disaster. I can’t say I take any pleasure in being in proven right.
I'd argue a continuous back-and-forth between will it or will it not happen, not helped by the fact that rail investment is not a bipartisan thing in the UK as it is in more sensible places, has harmed the project far more than who donated what to who.
I also don't think the people planning the project were instructed to specifically prioritising building via lower income areas - if there was a conspiracy happening, how would you justify the Chiltern route also happening to be a very convenient route for a London-Midlands HSR?
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,524
Location
Wales
HS2 would not carry traffic from this station to London, just as it is not intended to carry traffic from Manchester Airport Parkway to Manchester.
If it was built in Aylesbury then there would be an almighty strop thrown if it didn't.

No they didn’t.
Yes they did. Exhibit A is the access road that was blocked on spurious grounds, driving up costs until the planning inspector could overturn it.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,443
Location
Isle of Man
It sometimes is. But it also captures an attitude to development that deserves skewering
All these people criticising NIMBYs and none of them are offering to swap houses with them. They could do their bit for Britain and they choose not to. Why do we think that is?

also don't think the people planning the project were instructed to specifically prioritising building via lower income areas - if there was a conspiracy happening, how would you justify the Chiltern route also happening to be a very convenient route for a London-Midlands HSR?
It isn’t the most convenient though, otherwise we wouldn’t be needing all the earthworks through the Chilterns. It’s such a convenient route we need to build a 2-mile viaduct. Aye right.

I don’t think it’s a “conspiracy”, I think it is a cynical pragmatism. Poor people can’t fight back.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,524
Location
Wales
And the line through suburban Birmingham very carefully goes through all the poor areas and not the rich ones.
Er - where exactly?

It shadows existing transport corridors into the city. The surface sections are in industrial areas.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

All these people criticising NIMBYs and none of them are offering to swap houses with them.
I didn't realise that any of them were asking. I'm quite happy to consider swapping. I don't mind living near a railway. Not a motorway though, they're far bigger scars on the landscape and the noise is dreadful.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,443
Location
Isle of Man
though corruption isn't one I'd necessarily bring up when it comes to HS2.
I can only suggest you look closer at the biggest contractors on the project.

A corruption investigation into Britain's biggest construction company today led to Balfour Beatty paying out £2.25million for obtaining property by unlawful conduct.

In the first payout of its kind under new Serious Fraud Office powers, Balfour today admitted 'payment irregularities' during its rebuilding of the lost Great Library of Alexandria in Egypt, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.


Private corruption": Vinci Construction France indicted in a case related to Qatar

The group is suspected of having paid millions of euros to a Qatari company in exchange for agreements for the renovation of large buildings.


Robert McAlpine and Balfour Beatty were the main players in the blacklisting scandal too.

A lot of people are doing very well out of HS2. Sadly just not the taxpayer. It’s either stratospheric incompetence or, well, it is something else. And as the HS2 management themselves say the that they are not stupid people…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yes they did. Exhibit A is the access road that was blocked on spurious grounds, driving up costs until the planning inspector could overturn it.
Which access road? Where? And are you legally qualified to decide what are “spurious grounds”?

I shan’t say what I think about most planning inspectors in the UK because it is almost certainly libellous. But here’s some bedtime reading from The Guardian about the revolving door between planning inspectors, local politicians, and lobby groups working on behalf of big construction firms:
 
Last edited:

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,524
Location
Wales
So there's corruption in Egypt and Qatar? Have you any evidence of corruption in the UK? Corruption requires both sides to be complicit, there's no point in offering a bribe if no government official would be prepared to take it. I fancy that we're a bit more transparent than Egypt or Qatar.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,443
Location
Isle of Man
It shadows existing transport corridors into the city
I suppose the Jude Bellingham bridge does- quite literally- shadow the existing transport corridor.

Residents near a new HS2 railway bridge have complained that it has plunged their homes into darkness.

The 492ft tall Bellingham Bridge – named after Jude Bellingham, the Real Madrid and England footballer – will be one of the tallest HS2 bridges once it is completed near Birmingham city centre.

The huge structure in the footballer’s home city has left some residents complaining that it is “like having the Forth Bridge plonked in your garden”.

Residents of nearby flats said their lives had been affected by the “metal Godzilla”, claiming the “eyesore” blocked their light. They said they feared noisy high-speed trains would make life unbearable once the rail line was finished.

 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
5,444
They’re no more or less selfish than the politicians who insist that The Thing must be built, and The Thing must be built right next to the poor people’s houses.
Which poor people's houses in the Chilterns are these you are referring to?
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,524
Location
Wales
Which access road? Where?
Might be this one:

The council said the proposal to build an access track would harm the “sensitive and protected Chilterns National Landscape”, despite planning officers recommending it for approval.

And are you legally qualified to decide what are “spurious grounds”?
If a council goes against the recommendations of its own planning officers then the grounds are usually spurious. It's not the only case of Bucks CC doing this - and they've lost a fair few appeals. Any time that a council loses a planning appeal, they have wasted ratepayers' money.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

A truss bridge has "plunged homes into darkness"? Truss bridges are more hole than bridge. Is it spoiling their view of the Freightliner terminal?

"Once the work has finished, I’m concerned about noisy trains going past –they are going to shake our homes as they are so close."
He thinks that it'll drown out the much nearer line which sees a passing train every five minutes?

Another, Raheema, 25, said she had taken to using ChatGPT to block the view of the bridge from the skyline.
She explained: “It’s a bit embarrassing – I don’t like telling people I live here. When I take photos for social media, I have to use ChatGPT to add a nice skyline background because the view is so bad.
This is laughable. Is this what a once-respectable broadsheet is now reduced to, featuring angry local people in its newspaper? The Telegraph is turning into a Reach publication, I see.
 
Last edited:

Top