How long will the Class 158 & 159 soldier on for?

[Adrian1980uk]

I noticed a change in that recently 170s are all the rage in Norwich Station as opposed to the 158s, intact I haven't seen a 158 for quite a few weeks.

 

[Killingworth]

I noticed a change in that recently 170s are all the rage in Norwich Station as opposed to the 158s, intact I haven't seen a 158 for quite a few weeks.

Although less frequent they're there every day - see RTT for the EMR units there today; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=EM

 

[swrcommguard]

The Class 15X C6 refurbishment programme seems to have been paused due to supplier issues.

The first refreshed unit was due to be in service by April but there's no sign of it.

Internal rumours also say that the level of corrosion found was much worse than expected.

Meanwhile SWR West of England services have been suffering from numerous short formations in recent weeks - yesterday 1L53 17.23 WAT to EXD was 3 vice 8.

The situation doesn't look great.

 

[Trainbike46]

The Class 15X C6 refurbishment programme seems to have been paused due to supplier issues.

The first refreshed unit was due to be in service by April but there's no sign of it.

Internal rumours also say that the level of corrosion found was much worse than expected.

Meanwhile SWR West of England services have been suffering from numerous short formations in recent weeks - yesterday 1L53 17.23 WAT to EXD was 3 vice 8.

The situation doesn't look great.

Which operator(s) and classes is this in reference to, 150+158 at GWR, 158/159 at SWR, Northern 15x, or something else?

 

[43096]

Which operator(s) and classes is this in reference to, 150+158 at GWR, 158/159 at SWR, Northern 15x, or something else?

SWR presumably.

 

[tfw756rider]

Which operator(s) and classes is this in reference to, 150+158 at GWR, 158/159 at SWR, Northern 15x, or something else?

Probably 158/159 at South Western Railway (going by the swr in their username and them referencing short-formed SWR West of England services).

 

[swrcommguard]

Yes the SWR diesel fleet which is going through its C6 overhaul at the moment

 

[Snow1964]

Yes the SWR diesel fleet which is going through its C6 overhaul at the moment

Probably their last as these tend to be about every 7-9 years.

Although it is sounding as though process might have been suspended because of lack of required parts and/or extensive extra corrosion work.

Of course DfT has allowed Project Churchward to fester for 3-4 years, even though about year ago they added possible other operators, so now neither GWR (or SWR) has anything on order for its diesel lines, even though it might not be possible to actually complete a C6 within reasonable cost or timeframe on the 159s.

 

[Tetragon213]

I can't see what you'd run to replace 159s on the WoEML, however, at least, from the current existing pools of stock.

It's extraordinary how well the 159s have held up, imo. Even now, I still consider them some of the best DMUs in the country. While the leg room isn't fantastic, I will happily take having my knees kiss the seat in front, if I fundamentally get a seat that I can properly sit down and sink into. They were also pretty reliable from my past experiences with them. And the unique nature of the WoEML makes replacements a tad tricky.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I can't see what you'd run to replace 159s on the WoEML, however, at least, from the current existing pools of stock.

It's extraordinary how well the 159s have held up, imo. Even now, I still consider them some of the best DMUs in the country. While the leg room isn't fantastic, I will happily take having my knees kiss the seat in front, if I fundamentally get a seat that I can properly sit down and sink into. They were also pretty reliable from my past experiences with them. And the unique nature of the WoEML makes replacements a tad tricky.

I think SWR have proposed bi-mode battery/3rd rail 450s with intermittent 3rd rail Basingstoke to Exeter at some point, that seems the only viable solution.

 

[Snow1964]

I think SWR have proposed bi-mode battery/3rd rail 450s with intermittent 3rd rail Basingstoke to Exeter at some point, that seems the only viable solution.

I think ORR are blocking further third rsil sections.

Of course, the one train GBR (or its shadow version) should have got on and ordered promptly, is a 5car regional dual voltage BEMU or bimode, not only SWR but also Cardiff-Portsmouth, Cardiff-Exeter, Cardiff-Nottingham etc. About 70-100 of these would have allowed a cascade that fixed majority of stock woes around parts of the country.

 

[swrcommguard]

The third rail 'islands' plan has bitten the dust. The national grid also kyboshed the plan when they were approached by NR.

The solution will have to be more diesels or a bi-mode that can use the 3rd rail between Waterloo and Worting Junction and then switch to diesel.

If diesel only, it's possible that they will stop going all the way to Waterloo and may terminate/turn at Woking (due to London clean air legislation).

I have heard talk of plans to change the xx.47 Salisbury to Waterloo stoppers to Yeovil to Reading services (probably from Dec 2027 or poss May 2028)

Nearly all Salisbury crew now sign Basingstoke to Reading and Yeovil depot will be learning it, too.

 

[Snow1964]

If diesel only, it's possible that they will stop going all the way to Waterloo and may terminate/turn at Woking (due to London clean air legislation).

Is that actually a proposal, or just an ideal by some clean air pressure group.

In theory if it applies in London, could it apply to rail vehicles in other cities too. For instance Bristol, Although Temple Meads station is outside their clean air zone, part of the Portishead line passes under Clanage Road which Bristol City Council map shows is within the zone.

Bath and Portsmouth both have clean air zones which trains via Salisbury pass through. If these started to apply to rail vehicles then the 158, 165, 166 fleet would have to go.

 

[brad465]

The third rail 'islands' plan has bitten the dust. The national grid also kyboshed the plan when they were approached by NR.

The solution will have to be more diesels or a bi-mode that can use the 3rd rail between Waterloo and Worting Junction and then switch to diesel.

If diesel only, it's possible that they will stop going all the way to Waterloo and may terminate/turn at Woking (due to London clean air legislation).

I have heard talk of plans to change the xx.47 Salisbury to Waterloo stoppers to Yeovil to Reading services (probably from Dec 2027 or poss May 2028)

Nearly all Salisbury crew now sign Basingstoke to Reading and Yeovil depot will be learning it, too.

There are probably are no plans for this as we'd have heard if we did, but I would hope more double track would be installed between Salisbury and Yeovil to make 2tph through here all day more manageable. At a minimum it would require Tisbury loop to be extended to the station, as well as extending the length of the Gillingham loop.

 

[Zomboid]

Is that actually a proposal, or just an ideal by some clean air pressure group.

In theory if it applies in London, could it apply to rail vehicles in other cities too. For instance Bristol, Although Temple Meads station is outside their clean air zone, part of the Portishead line passes under Clanage Road which Bristol City Council map shows is within the zone.

Bath and Portsmouth both have clean air zones which trains via Salisbury pass through. If these started to apply to rail vehicles then the 158, 165, 166 fleet would have to go.

Given that bimodes are not a new technology now and there's 50 miles of electrified railway between London and Worting Junction, the eventual new trains are not going to be straight diesels. Whether they're diesel/ electric or battery/ electric remains to be seen.

I don't forsee more flat crossings being made at the east end of Basingstoke to divert the Salisbury trains.

 

[swrcommguard]

Is that actually a proposal, or just an ideal by some clean air pressure group.

In theory if it applies in London, could it apply to rail vehicles in other cities too. For instance Bristol, Although Temple Meads station is outside their clean air zone, part of the Portishead line passes under Clanage Road which Bristol City Council map shows is within the zone.

Bath and Portsmouth both have clean air zones which trains via Salisbury pass through. If these started to apply to rail vehicles then the 158, 165, 166 fleet would have to go.

No I don't think there is a firm proposal, or even any likely ban, it's just becoming increasingly 'politically awkward' as time moves on.

 

[JonathanH]

Bath and Portsmouth both have clean air zones which trains via Salisbury pass through. If these started to apply to rail vehicles then the 158, 165, 166 fleet would have to go.

Are there clear air zones where polluting vehicles are actually banned, or is it just a surcharge they have to pay for access? If the latter, then actually the 159, 165 166 don't 'have to go'.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Is Aberdeen still dishing out fines to cars that dare venture into their ‘low emission zone’, despite the eau de MTU and similar from the port?

 

[A60stock]

If diesel only, it's possible that they will stop going all the way to Waterloo and may terminate/turn at Woking (due to London clean air legislation).

If this were to be the case then there are plenty of other examples of diesel routes which would be impacted. I am thinking of one particular main line London terminal which is entirely diesel operated...….

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think ORR are blocking further third rsil sections.

Of course, the one train GBR (or its shadow version) should have got on and ordered promptly, is a 5car regional dual voltage BEMU or bimode, not only SWR but also Cardiff-Portsmouth, Cardiff-Exeter, Cardiff-Nottingham etc. About 70-100 of these would have allowed a cascade that fixed majority of stock woes around parts of the country.

I thought their idea was "make it safe with some variety of a technology like Alimentation par Sol or the Vivarail fast charge solution".
It's a shame if they can't make it work, because it would be useful for more than 1 route and make SWR an electric only network.
I'm not sure a BEMU can do the 124 miles from Exeter to Basingstoke without any intermediate charging opportunities, unless they're planning to wire something like Exeter to Yeovil as part of a Devon Metro + electrification programme.

The third rail 'islands' plan has bitten the dust. The national grid also kyboshed the plan when they were approached by NR.

Seems rather stupid.

 

[Class450/4DES]

I think ORR are blocking further third rsil sections.

The third rail 'islands' plan has bitten the dust. The national grid also kyboshed the plan when they were approached by NR.

This really annoys me. Sorry if I am going off topic slightly. With climate change and the sprinters approaching the end of their prime, I feel like that the ORR shouldn't be blocking 3rd rail electrification anymore.

I feel like the only option we have left for the 158/159s replacement is further FULL 3rd rail electrification. Its the cheapest as you don't need to change bridges, etc.

 

[Tetragon213]

This really annoys me. Sorry if I am going off topic slightly. With climate change and the sprinters approaching the end of their prime, I feel like that the ORR shouldn't be blocking 3rd rail electrification anymore.

I feel like the only option we have left for the 158/159s replacement is further FULL 3rd rail electrification. Its the cheapest as you don't need to change bridges, etc.

The problem is, third rail is unfairly demonised as being "too hazardous". Additionally, ever since BRB v Herrington (where I believe the House of Lords, as usual, came to the wrong conclusion), there is a particularly high level of apprehension wrt new installations due to liability etc.

I suppose you could try something more along the lines of the Greenford Branch with fast-chargers?

 

[JamesT]

This really annoys me. Sorry if I am going off topic slightly. With climate change and the sprinters approaching the end of their prime, I feel like that the ORR shouldn't be blocking 3rd rail electrification anymore.

I feel like the only option we have left for the 158/159s replacement is further FULL 3rd rail electrification. Its the cheapest as you don't need to change bridges, etc.

Or, as per the recent threads about third rail on this forum, you buy battery units which can bridge the gaps between electrification which are much cheaper.

 

[Kite159]

Or just buy new diesel units and not mess around with batteries.
Battery trains good for low speed branch lines, not for a line with 85mph running.

 

[Trainbike46]

Or just buy new diesel units and not mess around with batteries.
Battery trains good for low speed branch lines, not for a line with 85mph running.

There is no reason not to use BEMUs for lines with a top speed of 85 or 110 or any other top speed.

New diesel units should not be considered. The current cheap railway diesel will not be available forever. New 3rd rail doesn't strike me as a good idea either.

For Waterloo-Exeter services, the solution (in my view) is to install OHLE around Exeter, and use this combined with the existing 3rd rail to charge batteries for the remaining section. The OHLE around Exeter can also be used by the existing 80x services and to charge BEMUs used on the other lines from Exeter, giving more benefit for the infrastructure investment.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Or just buy new diesel units and not mess around with batteries.
Battery trains good for low speed branch lines, not for a line with 85mph running.

Is the obvious answer. Probably cheaper too?

 

[JamesT]

Or just buy new diesel units and not mess around with batteries.
Battery trains good for low speed branch lines, not for a line with 85mph running.

Tell the Germans that, they've been running Stadler Flirt Akku battery units with a top speed of 100mph for several years.

 

[Tetragon213]

Or just buy new diesel units and not mess around with batteries.
Battery trains good for low speed branch lines, not for a line with 85mph running.

Indeed. There is a very unwarranted "evil disiesel" moral panic from some parts.

Come to think of it, I wonder if the Class 755 or 756 could be re-engineered to work as Diesel-Battery-Third Rail tri-modes? You'd probably need an inverter and a transformer, but there should be space in the power pack, surely?

 

[swrcommguard]

Or just buy new diesel units and not mess around with batteries.
Battery trains good for low speed branch lines, not for a line with 85mph running.

I agree.

Even with discontinuous electrification there would need to be significant dwell time at stations or in electrified sections on a line where the journey time is already lengthy (Waterloo to Exeter is 3.5 hours without disruption) and the existing capacity / timings can barely cope with 1tph.

Most straightforward solution is bi-mode with 3rd rail power Waterloo to Worting Junction and diesel on from there.

Further electrification should be considered when and if the rest of the line from Salisbury to Exeter is redoubled in full (unlikely) or with extended passing loops (more likely).

The Class 15X are becoming increasingly unreliable with a very poor customer environment. The promised C6 refurb seems to have hit the buffers.

The DfT/SWR need to start the ball rolling NOW if they want to replace these trains within 8 to 10 years so they should do this based on the existing infrastructure constraints.

 

[gabrielhj07]

The Class 15X are becoming increasingly unreliable with a very poor customer environment. The promised C6 refurb seems to have hit the buffers.

Are they? Reliability is not what it once was but they’re hardly 180s. The onboard environment of a Northern 150 is totally different to a 159.