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Formula 1

DarloRich

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Teams will be using the break to work on upgrades, likely quite substantial ones for some teams. Aston Martin-Honda will likely be glad of it, giving them more time to get to the bottom of their struggles. Remember though that teams still have to work within the cost cap too...
they don't need five weeks to identify the problem. I can tell them now:

The car is rubbish
The engine is REALLY rubbish - Why would you go with Honda?
The car vibrates so much it will snap in half and give the drivers the kind of vibration injuries usually reserved for pneumatic drill drivers
Those vibrations are making the batteries break
All that means they have limited running data to build on so they are SLOW

I cant even blame Lance Stroll for the problems!

Basically, just bin the whole thing, take the year off and try again. That and see if Mercedes will sell them engines!
 
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JamesT

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they don't need five weeks to identify the problem. I can tell them now:

The car is rubbish
The engine is REALLY rubbish - Why would you go with Honda?
The car vibrates so much it will snap in half and give the drivers the kind of vibration injuries usually reserved for pneumatic drill drivers
Those vibrations are making the batteries break
All that means they have limited running data to build on so they are SLOW

I cant even blame Lance Stroll for the problems!

Basically, just bin the whole thing, take the year off and try again. That and see if Mercedes will sell them engines!
It seems hard to believe it was a Honda engine behind the driver awarded the world championship in 4 out of the last 5 years. Will they need 5 years to fix it like last time?
 

Cloud Strife

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The car is rubbish
The engine is REALLY rubbish - Why would you go with Honda?

It'll be very interesting in a few years time to find out the real story here. From what we know, Aston Martin effectively didn't even bother to work closely with Honda until the end of lats year, and they instead treated Honda like a supplier of customer engines. Then you've got Newey who appears to have designed something that was far too ambitious for the time that he had, although again, we don't know if they'd be even worse without him.

Honda have made a complete mess of this, but AM seem to have made a complete mess of actually managing the relationship as well. It seems that AM were busy redesigning the car without considering that Honda didn't have the knowledge or the capability to change the engine, and then when Honda delivered a rubbish engine as a result, they were caught off-guard.

Looking very much from the outside, I suspect the real story is that AM had absolutely no idea how to manage the relationship with Honda. They probably expected that Honda would deliver them a decent engine in 2026 without much input from their part, which is exactly what you shouldn't do as a works team. Meanwhile, all the previous Honda team went off to Red Bull Powertrains, and Honda were left trying to build a new engine without the know-how.

What's telling is that Honda seem to be happy with the engine, which suggests that the problem rather lies with AM's design.
 

Leyland Bus

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It'll be very interesting in a few years time to find out the real story here. From what we know, Aston Martin effectively didn't even bother to work closely with Honda until the end of lats year, and they instead treated Honda like a supplier of customer engines. Then you've got Newey who appears to have designed something that was far too ambitious for the time that he had, although again, we don't know if they'd be even worse without him.

Honda have made a complete mess of this, but AM seem to have made a complete mess of actually managing the relationship as well. It seems that AM were busy redesigning the car without considering that Honda didn't have the knowledge or the capability to change the engine, and then when Honda delivered a rubbish engine as a result, they were caught off-guard.

Looking very much from the outside, I suspect the real story is that AM had absolutely no idea how to manage the relationship with Honda. They probably expected that Honda would deliver them a decent engine in 2026 without much input from their part, which is exactly what you shouldn't do as a works team. Meanwhile, all the previous Honda team went off to Red Bull Powertrains, and Honda were left trying to build a new engine without the know-how.

What's telling is that Honda seem to be happy with the engine, which suggests that the problem rather lies with AM's design.
You've hit the nail on the head there. Definetly as much down to AM as Honda... Ignorance or inexperience, we may never know!
 
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Tetchytyke

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Thats what I meant - with the two races cancelled, would the FIA allow them to use it as wind tunnel time?
No, the wind tunnel and CFD limits are unchanged.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What's telling is that Honda seem to be happy with the engine, which suggests that the problem rather lies with AM's design.
Honda were happy with the engine in McLaren days too. Although the car wasn't as good as McLaren thought it was, and so the engine wasn't quite as bad as McLaren thought it was, the engine was still absolute garbage.

Honda only improved when they moved to Red Bull. Red Bull had Mario Ilien (the man behind Ilmor, now Mercedes HPP) as a consultant. That's why Honda were able to improve. That, and poaching a load of staff from Mercedes HPP.

Aston Martin have been naive in the extreme here in leaving Honda to get on with their thing. Gary Anderson, who knows a thing or two about managing Honda, explained it well in a recent article in The Race: https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/gary-anderson-test-disaster-is-the-kick-honda-needed/

As for the engine, it was a different story. I would describe the Honda approach as sort of hands-off: it was responsible for the design and build and it worked, job done.

However, that was one of the problems, because the engine was designed and built by Honda and run by Mugen-Honda. As is the way with Japanese business culture, neither company could actually confront the other about the performance. It was OK when it came to mechanical problems as you had hard facts, but general parameters like fuel consumption, which was about 5% higher than Peugeot, and actual performance were out of bounds for discussion.

The main feedback from Honda about the lack of performance was that the Jordan’s airbox was too small. It wanted something about twice the size. We always based a lot of our aerodynamic research time into managing the airflow spillage from the airbox when the engine couldn’t use any more airflow and when the driver would shut the throttle. The last thing you needed was the rear wing downforce to suffer in either of those circumstances.

After I realised that Honda wasn't talking about the performance problems, I felt I had to use my famous diplomatic training skills to highlight the situation. So after the season started I did four one-day trips to Sakura to meet with the design team and a Mugen-Honda representative.

The first three were a failure as I just couldn’t get the message across. However, after round four at Imola I felt we had enough actual data for one last trip. That was the one circuit which had reasonably consistent acceleration off chicanes and this allowed us to compare that data to the previous season. If the mid-corner speed was the same and the throttle application was the same, then if the power output was the same in my opinion the acceleration off the corner should be the same.

So off I went to Sakura with my backpack over my shoulder full of data and we sat in an office for most of the rest of the day discussing the lack of acceleration compared to the previous year and how I felt that we had probably 50bhp less than the Peugeot unit from the previous year, which had roughly 745hp. They didn’t accept this and that’s when my diplomatic training kicked in, I started to get a bit angry and bang the desk (lightly) and with that a young engineer jumped up and left. I thought I had upset him.

Happily, he came back about 10 minutes later with a sheet of paper, he hit his calculator for a few seconds and then declared, ‘we have a problem’. His numbers showed Honda had just under 700bhp. From there on in, the tone of the meeting changed dramatically.
 
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DarloRich

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What's telling is that Honda seem to be happy with the engine, which suggests that the problem rather lies with AM's design.
I bet they are happy but it clearly isn't up to snuff. It is said to be underpowered and unreliable and the batteries don't seem great either. I have no idea why you would go with Honda. Did they not ask Fernado...............
 

QSK19

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Teams will be using the break to work on upgrades, likely quite substantial ones for some teams. Aston Martin-Honda will likely be glad of it, giving them more time to get to the bottom of their struggles. Remember though that teams still have to work within the cost cap too...
I dare say Red Bull will be quite keen to have a reset during the break too!
 

GB

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They should be given extra testing time that is not part of the cost cap in lieu of the two cancelled races and associated cancelled running.
 

JD2168

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The break will enable the FIA to hopefully find a solution to what happened to Oliver Bearman in the Japanese Grand Prix when he had a massive overspeed compared to Franco Colapinto resulting in a 190mph 50G impact.

This was commented on by a number of drivers in the press area after the race with Carlos Sainz mentioning if this had happened at Saudi Arabia, Baku, Singapore or Las Vegas it could be more serious than it was.
 

Mogster

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Just a heads up. Miami race start moved forward to 18:00 BST (13:00 local) because of forecast extreme weather in the afternoon.
 

Howardh

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Just a heads up. Miami race start moved forward to 18:00 BST (13:00 local) because of forecast extreme weather in the afternoon.
I just can't get myself to be interested like I used to.
 

BuhSnarf

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That was a good race, great race craft from Max and Charles and Antonelli is really looking strong this season.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Canadian GP was edge of the seat until Russell's car unfortunately expired. McClaren's screwed up on strategy again starting on the inters along with Audi and having to bail after a couple of lamps. Norris making a good comeback but then his car expired as well so Merc reliability potentially an issue although other runners ran to end well except Albon who was taken out by Piastri.
 
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Canadian GP was edge of the seat until Russell's car unfortunately expired. McClaren's screwed up on strategy again starting on the inters along with Audi and having to bail after a couple of lamps. Norris making a good comeback but then his car expired as well so Merc reliability potentially an issue although other runners ran to end well except Albon who was taken out by Piastri.
I thought it was the best race since Silverstone 1987. Remember when fewer than 10 cars finished races regularly?
 

JD2168

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I thought it was a great battle at the front until Russell’s retirement then the race rather fizzled out apart from the Verstappen/Hamilton battle.

McLaren’s decision was bizarre to put them both on intermediates. If you were thinking of doing this sure the best was would be to put one of the on slicks so covered both ways.

For me some great races I have seen are:
Monaco 1996 was a great race for the amount of incidents & accidents during the race.
Germany 2000 - Rubén’s Barrichello winning from 18th on the grid after a great drive & at the end on slicks on a half wet/half dry track with the wet in the trickiest part in the stadium section.
Japan 2000 - Michael & Mika battling for the title in a league of their own, they were doing qualifying laps all race.
Japan 2005 - Kimi Raikkonen winning from 17th with a last lap pass on Fisichella, also included Alonso overtaking on the outside of Michael Schumacher into 130R
 

Darandio

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2011 Canada was fantastic, not only because of the Button drive but also the Brundle and Coulthard holding commentary during the delay, brilliant.

"That looks like the red-shouldered blackbird to me"

:lol::lol:
 

QSK19

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I thought it was a great battle at the front until Russell’s retirement then the race rather fizzled out apart from the Verstappen/Hamilton battle.

McLaren’s decision was bizarre to put them both on intermediates. If you were thinking of doing this sure the best was would be to put one of the on slicks so covered both ways.

For me some great races I have seen are:
Monaco 1996 was a great race for the amount of incidents & accidents during the race.
Germany 2000 - Rubén’s Barrichello winning from 18th on the grid after a great drive & at the end on slicks on a half wet/half dry track with the wet in the trickiest part in the stadium section.
Japan 2000 - Michael & Mika battling for the title in a league of their own, they were doing qualifying laps all race.
Japan 2005 - Kimi Raikkonen winning from 17th with a last lap pass on Fisichella, also included Alonso overtaking on the outside of Michael Schumacher into 130R
Belgium 1998 - who can forget that?! The huge pile up, the restart, Schumacher going into the back of Coulthard (and driving a surprisingly stable 3-wheeled Ferrari!) and then the Jordan 1-2.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Belgium 1998 - who can forget that?! The huge pile up, the restart, Schumacher going into the back of Coulthard (and driving a surprisingly stable 3-wheeled Ferrari!) and then the Jordan 1-2.
Schumacher wasn't so stable when he got back to the pits!
 

JD2168

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Belgium 1998 - who can forget that?! The huge pile up, the restart, Schumacher going into the back of Coulthard (and driving a surprisingly stable 3-wheeled Ferrari!) and then the Jordan 1-2.

Oh yes that race with the massive crash after La Source after Coulthard span on a drain cover.

The restart with Mika taken out at the first corner, Michael then dominating until hitting the back of Coulthard’s car. Michael then was stopped from punching David in the pits then the Jordan 1-2 with the team orders that the Schumacher’s weren’t happy with & probably was a reason in Ralf moving to Williams in 1999.
 

QSK19

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Schumacher wasn't so stable when he got back to the pits!
Queue Murray’s commentary “He’s going to Coulthard! He’s going to have it out with David Coulthard!” :lol:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Oh yes that race with the massive crash after La Source after Coulthard span on a drain cover.

The restart with Mika taken out at the first corner, Michael then dominating until hitting the back of Coulthard’s car. Michael then was stopped from punching David in the pits then the Jordan 1-2 with the team orders that the Schumacher’s weren’t happy with & probably was a reason in Ralf moving to Williams in 1999.
And virtually carbon copy of that when, later on, Fisichella went into the back of Nakano.
 
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Bald Rick

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Monaco 92 for me when Senna held off a charging Mansell who had punctured but got new tyres and was all over him like a rash.

Or that race in Spain where Schumacher finished 2nd despite only having 5th gear for the last umpteen laps!
 

Broucek

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It was a terrific race although the TV direction was poor (and worse still for the Sprint....)
 

BuhSnarf

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It was a terrific race although the TV direction was poor (and worse still for the Sprint....)
The race direction (and on screen graphics) were particuarly poor this weekend.

It too an age to find out what had happened between Oscar and Albon - even though the timing tower clearly made it obvious that something had happened and so many replays that were just put in the top left corner instead of full screen.

Although, I think some of the reason was that they didn't want to cut away from George and Kimi - the one point where they did was one of the times Kimi had managed to sneak along side.
 

QSK19

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Monaco 92 for me when Senna held off a charging Mansell who had punctured but got new tyres and was all over him like a rash.

Or that race in Spain where Schumacher finished 2nd despite only having 5th gear for the last umpteen laps!
I think some Brazilians may go for Monaco 2001 - Enrique Bernoldi holding off Coulthard for well over 30 laps. IIRC, Coulthard couldn’t get off the grid due to some electrical issue, but he eventually reached Bernoldi.

I seem to remember Bernoldi getting flak for “holding up” Coulthard, but it was for position and he had every right to defend - no default obligation to let Coulthard by just because the latter was in a quicker car.
 

Mogster

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The race direction (and on screen graphics) were particuarly poor this weekend.

It too an age to find out what had happened between Oscar and Albon - even though the timing tower clearly made it obvious that something had happened and so many replays that were just put in the top left corner instead of full screen.

Although, I think some of the reason was that they didn't want to cut away from George and Kimi - the one point where they did was one of the times Kimi had managed to sneak along side.

The TV direction was particularly dire. Over at “The Race” podcast they were suggesting that the TV crew are told to get certain advertising hoardings in shot a minimum number of times during the race. Some of the new pano and drone shots seem to be designed with this in mind. With a busy race there was maybe a bit of panic about which shots to prioritise. It does confirm that you can have too much action during the races, it becomes impossible to feature several battles at the same time. Whatever, it needs sorting out.

I did think visually the race was great, it was interesting how casual family viewers were drawn to the action also. I’m still offended by the fact the drivers have to go slower in the corners to charge the battery for straightline speed, that’s not what being a racing driver should be about. If FOM/FIA can somehow fix the battery charging in the corners issue while retaining the potential for overtaking energy boost then they’ll have stumbled on the secret sauce they’ve been looking for for the last 35 years.
 

Broucek

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The TV direction was particularly dire. Over at “The Race” podcast they were suggesting that the TV crew are told to get certain advertising hoardings in shot a minimum number of times during the race.
Perhaps they could ask Lewis's mum and the driver girlfriends to wear branded clothes. That way we'd kill two "not very interesting" birds (see what I did there?) with one stone?
 

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