Great British Railways - First Train in New Livery

[JonathanH]

GBR will most likely differentiate fares through route restrictions, category of service and calling patterns, as well as peak/off-peak.

How do you differentiate fares by calling patterns?

More realistically, the differentiation of fares over long distances will be by advance fares, with one level of anytime fares and off-peak walk-up fares removed, on the LNER model, and over short distances by peak / off-peak, on the TfL style PAYG model.

 

[DelW]

WMT’s London to Crewe trains don’t go via Northampton.

It's the LNWR Birmingham stoppers that go via Northampton, not the Crewe trains. They go on the main line.

Ah, I'm evidently out of touch. I probably haven't used the slower trains since back in London Midland days.

 

[gc4946]

How do you differentiate fares by calling patterns?

More realistically, the differentiation of fares over long distances will be by advance fares, with one level of anytime fares and off-peak walk-up fares removed, on the LNER model, and over short distances by peak / off-peak, on the TfL style PAYG model.

By stating on the ticket in order for that to be a valid fare the service must stop at that specified station. Unless GBR decides how to categorise services based on criteria such as Intercity, Regional, Regional Express, Local, Commuter it's the only way to allow a degree of price differentiation.

Back to liveries, I also think West Yorkshire (Weaver Network) could have branded trains using the 331s and 333s in their green livery. It would be very interesting if some also appear carrying both Weaver Network green and South Yorkshire People's Network burnt orange liveries because the Leeds-Doncaster local service passes through both authorities.

 

[Warrior2852]

How do you differentiate fares by calling patterns?

By stating on the ticket in order for that to be a valid fare the service must stop at that specified station. Unless GBR decides how to categorise services based on criteria such as Intercity, Regional, Regional Express, Local, Commuter it's the only way to allow a degree of price differentiation.

The problem there is it doesn't account for short term changes to calling patterns (e.g. in case of disruption or works).

 

[MrJeeves]

Someone will say that Advance fares will be used to manage the numbers but is that really what passengers want? One of the advantages of travelling by train is the flexibility.

It's not what the passengers want, but it's probably what they will get anyway.

 

[vuzzeho]

I think the big thing missing here is that we're moving into what will be an interim phase rather than how GBR will actually be operating say 5 years from now. The bill to establish it hasn't passed parliament yet, and could be subject to changes, and then as Heidi Alexander said it will take a year from that bill being passed for GBR to actually begin operation. TOCs are also still in the process of transferring to public ownership and will continue till 2027.

Things like operator only tickets will continue for this period, hence why all the TOCs are essentially remaining just with some tweaks to their naming. Once GBR is actually up and running however I believe we'll start to move away from those TOCs towards larger regional sectors, distinct Intercity services and common ticketing with offers which run at regional or national level rather than individual TOCs.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think for a few years we'll have to view branding and regional operators as interim until GBR is more locked in.

 

[GoneSouth]

How do you differentiate fares by calling patterns?

By stating on the ticket in order for that to be a valid fare the service must stop at that specified station. Unless GBR decides how to categorise services based on criteria such as Intercity, Regional, Regional Express, Local, Commuter it's the only way to allow a degree of price differentiation.

Back to liveries, I also think West Yorkshire (Weaver Network) could have branded trains using the 331s and 333s in their green livery. It would be very interesting if some also appear carrying both Weaver Network green and South Yorkshire People's Network burnt orange liveries because the Leeds-Doncaster local service passes through both authorities.

The Leeds Doncaster always used to be branded WYMetro Red and cream. Started with some pacers and then knackered old south east 508s might have got That class wrong but I was right about them being knackered.

Revolutionary brand new 321s appeared soon after, also with WY red and cream and they looked great. Not my photo but it is publicly available on flickr

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Are there any?

There will be… currently there’s the Wigan NW - Manchester Victoria via Golborne service at least.

Also Manchester Piccadilly-Rose Hill Marple wholly within Greater Manchester.

Before the current mess there were previously Stalybridge - Wigan North Western (via Bolton) services on a Sunday.

There is also the one a week Stalybridge - Stockport, various early morning/late evening services, and peak extras such as the Wigan to Manchester Victoria and back in the evening.

You could argue several services starting and/or terminating just outside Greater Manchester could justify trains carrying full Bee Network branding eg Manchester Piccadilly-Glossop/Hadfield and Manchester Piccadilly-New Mills Central.

The Glossop/Hatfield services operate pretty much as within Greater Manchester services - it's treated as being within Greater Manchester for ticketing purposes.

 

[Warrior2852]

The problem you run into is that even though there are some services entirely or almost entirely within the boundaries of a local authority, in most cases the rolling stock interoperates with the wider network. So you'd either have liveries in the wrong place regularly, or you'd have to completely redo rolling stock allocation to limit individual units to a smaller group of routes.

 

[GoneSouth]

The problem you run into is that even though there are some services entirely or almost entirely within the boundaries of a local authority, in most cases the rolling stock interoperates with the wider network. So you'd either have liveries in the wrong place regularly, or you'd have to completely redo rolling stock allocation to limit individual units to a smaller group of routes.

This always used to happen with WY Metro liveried stock. You’d see them from Scarborough to Blackpool, Hull to Liverpool and there were always plenty of red and cream pacers parked up in the middle track of Sheffield station. All out of place.

Then you’d get stock cascades and I’ve even seen MetroTrains as they were called in WY (probably old class 101s but in BR colours with WY branding) appear in east Anglia.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The Leeds Doncaster always used to be branded WYMetro Red and cream. Started with some pacers and then knackered old south east 508s might have got That class wrong but I was right about them being knackered.

308s.
508s were third rail, and spent most of their working lives on Merseyrail, the last being withdrwan in 2024.

 

[Invincible]

308s.
508s were third rail, and spent most of their working lives on Merseyrail, the last being withdrwan in 2024.

Guess Mersey rail (like some cities with TFL and Manchester Bee) will be separate to GBR, being run under a contract by Serco and Transport UK Group, and with the777s keeping their own livery?

Merseyrail to be separated from GBR ?

Look what the Liverpudlian in the yard found in this article - https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/buses-trains-boats-closer-look-20697758.amp?__twitter_impression=true But taking public ownership of the trains themselves isn't going to be enough for the ambitious Metro Mayor...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Guess Mersey rail (like some cities with TFL and Manchester Bee) will be separate to GBR, being run under a contract by Serco and Transport UK Group, and with the777s keeping their own livery?

Merseyrail to be separated from GBR ?

Look what the Liverpudlian in the yard found in this article - https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/buses-trains-boats-closer-look-20697758.amp?__twitter_impression=true But taking public ownership of the trains themselves isn't going to be enough for the ambitious Metro Mayor...

www.railforums.co.uk

Yes, not so sure about Manchester (we'll just have to wait and see how that goes), but Merseyrail will remain separate from GBR, there's pretty much no reason to merge it.

 

[43096]

308s.

307s for Leeds-Doncaster.

308s were used on the Leeds/Bradford/Skipton/Ilkley services before the 333s were built.

 

[sprinterguy]

308s.
508s were third rail, and spent most of their working lives on Merseyrail, the last being withdrwan in 2024.

In the case of Leeds - Doncaster, it was 307s until the 321/9s were delivered.

The 308s came later for the electrified Airedale and Wharfedale services.

Oh I’m not saying it lasted long, just that it was a leader in the red white and blue livery race.

To be fair, the 333s carried that livery for a decade from 2009 to 2019, which is reasonably longlived in the post-privatisation world.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, not so sure about Manchester (we'll just have to wait and see how that goes), but Merseyrail will remain separate from GBR, there's pretty much no reason to merge it.

Yes, with bus franchising in the Liverpool City Region there'll be eventual integration of bus and Merseyrail into an integrated transport network.

 

[GoneSouth]

Yes, not so sure about Manchester (we'll just have to wait and see how that goes), but Merseyrail will remain separate from GBR, there's pretty much no reason to merge it.

Not sure I like the idea of a pale yellow all over paint job for the Bee Network

Having said that the trams look ok in their yellow and gray.

 

[RUK]

Not sure I like the idea of a pale yellow all over paint job for the Bee Network

Having said that the trams look ok in their yellow and gray.

There already is a Class 323 in Bee Network livery, since last December: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bee-network-livery-spotted-in-manchester-piccadilly.295996/

 

[GoneSouth]

Ah ok that doesn’t look too bad at all in the sunshine. Maybe it’ll brighten up some of those dreary Manchester winter days too.

The shade of yellow on the front spoils it a bit though!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

387 172 is in public service today - and straight away, it's in a triple livery mixed set(!) with 387 304 and 387 225 on Victoria - Brighton Gatwick Express runs.

 

[SECR 65]

387 172 is in public service today - and straight away, it's in a triple livery mixed set(!) with 387 304 and 387 225 on Victoria - Brighton Gatwick Express runs.

Oh for goodness sake! Of course it's gone on the GatEx!

I wonder if they seem to be slightly struggling on GTR today?? There are loads of STP trains around, and there's been at least one unit swap going on. Down platform 6 at Gatwick Airport as well which could clog up the down fast.

 

[JonathanH]

There are loads of STP trains around, and there's been at least one unit swap going on.

Always loads of STPs on the Southern region on a bank holiday, as the service isn't the underlying Monday service.

 

[SECR 65]

Always loads of STPs on the Southern region on a bank holiday, as the service isn't the underlying Monday service.

Ah, I see, makes sense. I assumed there would be some way that the (Saturday?) WTT could be applied, but I suppose the Monday TT is a base and a revised Saturday service is being STPd onto it?

 

[Tom]

Ah, I see, makes sense. I assumed there would be some way that the (Saturday?) WTT could be applied, but I suppose the Monday TT is a base and a revised Saturday service is being STPd onto it?

If the "WTT service" is applied onto a date that it doesn't usually apply on, then it's not WTT and is applied under STP arrangements.

 

[GoneSouth]

That BR blue & gray was certainly not a thing of beauty. It shouted government owned austerity. There’s a lot to be said for its simplicity though.

Stop faffing about with angular flags and such and just whack the old NSE livery on everything.

By the way does a single 153 ever go to Buxton

 

[JonathanH]

By the way does a single 153 ever go to Buxton

The 153s didn't run to Buxton, only 150s and 156s. The remaining 153s on the passenger network are unlikely to go there.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Ah, I see, makes sense. I assumed there would be some way that the (Saturday?) WTT could be applied, but I suppose the Monday TT is a base and a revised Saturday service is being STPd onto it?

The Saturday WTT wouldn't work if the previous day had run a Sunday timetable, and the following day was not a Sunday timetable. The stock would be in the wrong places overnight.

Indeed, that;'s why Monday and Friday WTTs differ from the other days of the week.

 

[contrex]

That's not as bad as I feared it would be tbh.

Someone has called it 'like an explosion in a Union Jack factory'. I agree. Too much union-jackery lately.

 

[Invincible]

Someone has called it 'like an explosion in a Union Jack factory'. I agree. Too much union-jackery lately.

Labour want to reclaim the Union Jack from the far right

Keir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers

Exclusive: Members say flag may alienate ethnic minority voters as some associate it with far right

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

When the transport minister says it’s been designed “in house”, does this mean it’s been designed by people who have never designed a train livery before.

Therefore they won’t know about stuff like not repeating the same front carriage design on every carriage

I believe LNER were involved, and the guy who did the WMT branding package now works for them...