1992 stock Refurbishment?

[xtmw]

The comment "My London" reported Mr Jabbal to have made at the Epping council meeting regarding the delays to the 92 refurb program is rather inconsistent with the TFl line;
The initial delays in the design & development phase were blamed on COVID and suppliers going bust.
Subsequent delays in implementing the upgrade (rate of trains coming out of refurb) has been blamed on the distraction of resources to separately and urgently undertake Essential Heavy overhaul (DOPL) which had become due because of the delays in CLIP.

Yes and in addition company who were doing DTS things pulled out so had to be done in house

 

[Chriso]

I can’t stand Sadiq but have to say this was all down to the tories not wanting to give a labour mayor money .

Typical petty UK politics affecting us all

 

[bramling]

I can’t stand Sadiq but have to say this was all down to the tories not wanting to give a labour mayor money .

Typical petty UK politics affecting us all

TFL has been financially squeezed after picking up the pieces from the collapse of the disastrous PPP. For their part, TFL haven’t exactly inspired confidence in their ability to spend money wisely, look at how much money was wasted by TFL on the SSR resignalling, for example.

I’d say both political parties, two mayors and TFL leadership are all responsible in their own different ways. Given politicians don’t seem to give a toss about the population in any respect, it probably shouldn’t be surprising that they don’t give a toss about Central Line passengers either.

 

[Mikey C]

A Mayor, getting the electoral benefit from a fares freeze, is in a very poor negotiating position when asking the national government for more money.

 

[Nym]

I can’t stand Sadiq but have to say this was all down to the tories not wanting to give a labour mayor money .

Typical petty UK politics affecting us all

TfL’s level of competency has been lacking on CLIP for a time period that transcends political change. It was supposed to be delivered and complete in 2021.

 

[Recessio]

Yes and in addition company who were doing DTS things pulled out so had to be done in house

What is DTS sorry?

 

[GFE]

TfL’s level of competency has been lacking on CLIP for a time period that transcends political change. It was supposed to be delivered and complete in 2021.

As with many projects, CLIP is an example where they seem to have difficulty with understanding the true scope & complexity as the project developed together with other less expected issues.


DTS is the equipment status gathering system on the train, It provides info/facilities to the driver and remote diagnosis/condition monitoring to the Maintainer. It is microprocessor based and became both unreliable & obsolete.
This perhaps demonstrates Nyms point:- Appreciable "patch up" money previously spent. Replacement then included in CLIP. CLIP initially contracted out the train borne kit (development and module manufacture) apparently without much consideration of the maintainers system. The new kit probably needed some revised mounting arrangements (including Train Op panel). So handling these issues as they "emerged" may well have caused issues.

 

[xtmw]

What is DTS sorry?

As explained above it's the Data Transmission System (equivalent of a TMS), displays messages such as ATO ready etc. I've seen some really odd things on there as well as reporting faults which aren't even there

The new DTS is basically a new version of the old system, designed with the old system in mind. I assume this is intentional so staff are familiar with it. Only difference is faults reported now displayed in more detail; as well as train health now able to be viewed remotely with the wizardy of wireless connectivity !

There are some changes in the drivers cab, sadly not many. Only noticeable difference is a new keypad for the new Sonia which displays further information if a train has multiple handles down

 

[Recessio]

As with many projects, CLIP is an example where they seem to have difficulty with understanding the true scope & complexity as the project developed together with other less expected issues.


DTS is the equipment status gathering system on the train, It provides info/facilities to the driver and remote diagnosis/condition monitoring to the Maintainer. It is microprocessor based and became both unreliable & obsolete.
This perhaps demonstrates Nyms point:- Appreciable "patch up" money previously spent. Replacement then included in CLIP. CLIP initially contracted out the train borne kit apparently without much consideration of the maintainers system. The new kit probably needed some revised mounting arrangements (including Train Op panel). So handling these issues as they "emerged" may well have caused issues.

As explained above it's the Data Transmission System (equivalent of a TMS), displays messages such as ATO ready etc. I've seen some really odd things on there as well as reporting faults which aren't even there

The new DTS is basically a new version of the old system, designed with the old system in mind. I assume this is intentional so staff are familiar with it. Only difference is faults reported now displayed in more detail; as well as train health now able to be viewed remotely with the wizardy of wireless connectivity !

There are some changes in the drivers cab, sadly not many. Only noticeable difference is a new keypad for the new Sonia which displays further information if a train has multiple handles down

Thanks both for the explanation of DTS, much appreciated.

Having more detail and wireless connectivity for viewing faults certainly sounds useful!

 

[GFE]

Over the years they have been tweaking the level of detail and presentation of status displayed to the train Op and no doubt this will be reviewed again under the CLIP work.
Yes the view/replay of the fuller scenario/all events (typically called the Train download) associated with a reported failure is very very useful in accurate diagnosis/repair.
On the current 92 stock the data is only "uploaded" for remote viewing when train is dormant (eg stabled), I think the refurbished trains will upload much more regularly (as per the S stock, where I think the viewing facility is available in the control center as well as in maintenance depots)
With the leaps in data processing technology, Remote condition monitoring has been a growth area (in many industries including TFL) and enables monitoring/scenario searching of the data for trends by train and/or location highlighting deterioration for early attention. Currently useful for spotting units with failed WSP controllers, flashed over motors, Speed sensor faults, Doors detection, loss of Auxillaries, ATP/ATO controller issues, ATO Platform stopping accuracy/train braking performance, weak Trackside signalling signal levels to train.

 

[nctd2306]

To save me potentially having to look through this entire thread (this is my first time viewing it), does anyone know how many of these refurbished Central Line trains are currently in revenue service?

 

[GFE]

4 trains completed and commissioned. Currently 2 of these are generally in revenue service for a couple of hours each weekday peak ( due to limited number of trained drivers and associated complication of crew changes)

 

[STINT47]

I last visited London in Febuary 2025 and at that time tried to spot a refurbished 1992 stock train.

Sadly there were only a few completed which sometimes ran in the rush hours and I had no luck. Reading the above posts it's sounds like twelve months later very little has changed.

I will be spending time in London in March but it doesn't look like I'll have any more look seeing a refurbished train. It all seems a bit depressing.

 

[Russel]

I last visited London in Febuary 2025 and at that time tried to spot a refurbished 1992 stock train.

Sadly there were only a few completed which sometimes ran in the rush hours and I had no luck. Reading the above posts it's sounds like twelve months later very little has changed.

I will be spending time in London in March but it doesn't look like I'll have any more look seeing a refurbished train. It all seems a bit depressing.

It does seem to be progressing at a glacial pace doesn't it.

 

[xtmw]

I last visited London in Febuary 2025 and at that time tried to spot a refurbished 1992 stock train.

Sadly there were only a few completed which sometimes ran in the rush hours and I had no luck. Reading the above posts it's sounds like twelve months later very little has changed.

I will be spending time in London in March but it doesn't look like I'll have any more look seeing a refurbished train. It all seems a bit depressing.

You can track on Intertube T115 054 or 121 depending on timings and units available and if they haven't been stopped

 

[Chriso]

It’s comical. As a daily user I have been on about 5 in my thousands of journeys over the last two years.

 

[announcements]

It’s comical. As a daily user I have been on about 5 in my thousands of journeys over the last two years.

As a regular user I can confirm I've been on a grand total of zero!

 

[Alxxxs]

But seriously though is the program so behind schedule now that realistically it may become more efficient to replace most trains by new ones instead of refurbishing them?

 

[Recessio]

But seriously though is the program so behind schedule now that realistically it may become more efficient to replace most trains by new ones instead of refurbishing them?

Given they can't even get the funding to replace the Bakerloo line trains, I highly doubt this is an option.

 

[xtmw]

But seriously though is the program so behind schedule now that realistically it may become more efficient to replace most trains by new ones instead of refurbishing them?

No. I've written about this on another forum but there are all sort of technicalities which makes this impossible.

 

[Mikey C]

Not a CLIP issue, but somewhat surprised taking a train at Tottenham Court Road this afternoon, that the doors in the carriage (no 7) I was getting on shut immediately after they had opened. Just that car, so I was able to get in another car.

 

[Mojo]

Not a CLIP issue, but somewhat surprised taking a train at Tottenham Court Road this afternoon, that the doors in the carriage (no 7) I was getting on shut immediately after they had opened. Just that car, so I was able to get in another car.

Sounds like someone had been messing around with the porter buttons; this has been reported before (see: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...oors-closing-prematurely.261106/#post-6586060)

 

[CarrotPie]

No. I've written about this on another forum but there are all sort of technicalities which makes this impossible.

Why? The 1992 stock is going to need replacing eventually, anyway, so what would stop it happening now, apart from money (obviously)?

 

[bramling]

Why? The 1992 stock is going to need replacing eventually, anyway, so what would stop it happening now, apart from money (obviously)?

If a replacement fleet was ordered tomorrow, you’d be looking at a good 5 years before they would be entering service. As well as design and build of the trains, there would need to be a massive amount of integration work in order to get to a point where they could run. Integration with 1990s systems would be highly problematic, so 5 years would probably be an optimistic estimate. The whole point of CLIP is that the trains need remedial work *now*, the prospect of them continuing in their unmodified form for a further 5+ years is untenable. CLIP is already heavily delayed, and should have been implemented years earlier anyway.

At some point LU will have to tackle the fact that the 92 stock and Central Line signalling will both be life-expired. It’s hard to envisage how it could be done without having to have either new trains working on the old signalling, or even more awkwardly having to modify the old trains to work with new signalling.

 

[xtmw]

The plan is when new stock arrives, to make it compatible with the existing signalling system. I assume this is so less £££ is spent in the long run.

There is currently a life extension works scheme happening to support the signalling system on the Central.

I'm no signalling expert but I imagine making new stock compatible with the Westinghouse ATP-ATO system will be difficult - you do have to remember this is technology from the 90s and many parts of it are now obsolete/not supported by suppliers

It’s hard to envisage how it could be done without having to have either new trains working on the old signalling, or even more awkwardly having to modify the old trains to work with new signalling.

 

[GFE]

At some point LU will have to tackle the fact that the 92 stock and Central Line signalling will both be life-expired. It’s hard to envisage how it could be done without having to have either new trains working on the old signalling, or even more awkwardly having to modify the old trains to work with new signalling.

The plan is when new stock arrives, to make it compatible with the existing signalling system. I assume this is so less £££ is spent in the long run.

There is currently a life extension works scheme happening to support the signalling system on the Central.

I'm no signalling expert but I imagine making new stock compatible with the Westinghouse ATP-ATO system will be difficult - you do have to remember this is technology from the 90s and many parts of it are now obsolete/not supported by suppliers

It seems like the signal life extension works (to alleviate critical obsolescence) has ended.
As far as I'm aware there has been a feasibility study, resulting in a strategy and contractual framework with Siemens to 'Incrementally upgrade' the signalling. This included a plan to support both 92 and 24 stock and ultimately CBTC. This seemed logical in keeping the integration responsibility with Siemens.

 

[xtmw]

Interesting. The general feeling was that CBTC wasn't something being actively discussed, rather maintaining the existing signalling system

 

[notverydeep]

CLIP Train 5 has worked its first passenger service since the works this morning, working two round trips from Hainault to Woodford and return on train 172 between around 10:30 and 11:45. CLIP train 5 is composed of units 91079-93100-93232-91043.

 

[AndyD4]

CLIP Train 5 has worked its first passenger service since the works this morning, working two round trips from Hainault to Woodford and return on train 172 between around 10:30 and 11:45. CLIP train 5 is composed of units 91079-93100-93232-91043.

Are their any more trains in the Clip works overhaul ?
Or have they stopped at CLIP train 5 ?

 

[Dstock7080]

Are their any more trains in the Clip works overhaul ?
Or have they stopped at CLIP train 5 ?

4 trains currently at Acton Works