Great British Railways - First Train in New Livery

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There's a noted difference in the types of train service they offer that it is beneficial to have a split between. Northern is exclusively commuter and regional trains, but TPE operates an InterCity service in a lot of areas, particularly the routes towards Scotland and Newcastle.

However, TPE is four things in one
- A glorified Northern service (Hull - Liverpool/Cleethorpes route)
- An express service parallel to existing West Coast and East Coast services (West Coast route and Edinburgh Newcastle, neither of which touch the Pennines)
- The express service you mention from Newcastle to Liverpool

Currently there are franchises or contracts or "patches" so it's understandable that now and then certain routes that don't fit the TOC, belong to that TOC.

However, when all TOCs are finally gone, and it's one single entity, with simple sub-brands on some routes, THAT'S when it no longer makes any sense at all to have things like "TransPennine" given to routes such as West Coast, Newcastle Scotland, and arguably Cleethorpes, when you could just have them blend in with the same West Coast, East Coast and North branded trains sharing the route. Unnecessary duplication complicates things.

It's why it would also be stupid to have Birmingham - Leicester shuttles as a designated "Cross Country" route, for example. Currently, it's understandable as it's all franchises and contracts and separate patches, and CrossCountry have that patch and that service, as part of them getting the wider route to Stansted. But if everything suddenly becomes one GBR, you might as well brand that route as Midlands. Because it is.

 

[Non Multi]

I look forward to the inevitable increase in punters being penalty fared with advances, because the only difference between trains in the GBR livery is now a small single word or two on the bodyside... But the fun really begins when units get temporarily transferred to other divisions within GBR.

 

[GoneSouth]

I look forward to the inevitable increase in punters being penalty fared with advances, because the only difference between trains in the GBR livery is now a small single word or two on the bodyside... But the fun really begins when units get temporarily transferred to other divisions within GBR.

Ah but there’s the new sneaky way to avoid all that bad publicity, the flex 70 minute ticket trialled on LNER. Less “flex” for the same price as an off peak but it will be sold as a massive benefit, which it isn’t !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 May 2026 ==

They already tried the confuse everybody into paying the wrong fare with Gatwick Express being run by Southern branded trains, or was it Gatwick express branded trains on southern routes. I can’t remember but you get the point

 

[physics34]

The more I see it the more i think of GBNews. And nobody wants that in their lives!

Actually it looks ok. What I think needs to happen is an intercity, a regional express and a local version so there’s some distinction between routes at busy stations. One of the things I do like about franchising is i can see where my train is easily because I know what colour it is.

Actually the likes of GB news emerging are because the BBC and sky are so damned one sided... but thats another story...

The flag on the side of the units is ok, i just dont think it needs to be repeated on every carriage

 

[JonathanH]

I look forward to the inevitable increase in punters being penalty fared with advances, because the only difference between trains in the GBR livery is now a small single word or two on the bodyside... But the fun really begins when units get temporarily transferred to other divisions within GBR.

An advance fare is valid on one specific booked train at a particular departure time. That doesn't change due to the visibility of branding on the side (although it could be an issue with parallel departures at the same time on parallel routes if those exist anywhere).

 

[physics34]

Hi, I'm aware that there is a 387 and a 701 in GBR livery now, is that it as far as can be said so far or am I missing some other liveries. Another question being will RTT diagrams be changed to show the new GBR liveries on the units in due time too?

Edit: Another question I just thought was what will be the first unit out of factory to be in the new GBR livery, will that most likely be the HS2 stock (If those actually get completed...)

As someone else said the new LNER stock will likely be the first. Then very possibily the new stock for SE and replacement stock for 15x/16x diesel stock may well be built before the HS2 trains.

 

[gc4946]

My impression is that GBR emphasising the one railway identity will apply the same livery to all their trains from 8XXs to commuter stock with only different operator/regional branding.
Unless you're on a booked train(s) only advance with itinerary, the intending average walk-on passenger boards the first train, or best/fastest combination of trains to reach their destination. They won't need to worry about being penalty fared because they're on the wrong operator's service. From their perspective the specific regional division name branded on the train no longer matters.

 

[GoneSouth]

Just thought I’d point out that Northern (or whatever its predecessor was called) were trailblazers with a very very early attempt at a red white and blue livery on their mashup of northern/WYMetro liveries. That was 12 or more years ago

Link is to a publicly available Flickr photo which is not mine.

Northern Rail Class 333 333009 - Shipley

Northern Rail Class 333 333009 arriving at Shipley with a Leeds to Bradford Forster Square Service on the 18th August 2015.

flic.kr

 

[Goldfish62]

An advance fare is valid on one specific booked train at a particular departure time. That doesn't change due to the visibility of branding on the side (although it could be an issue with parallel departures at the same time on parallel routes if those exist anywhere.

Agreed. There's a lot of overthinking on this thread about the supposed reliance passengers put on the livery and name on the side of a train.

 

[gc4946]

I'm guessing GBR will draw up specifications for combined transport authorities and passenger transport executives on application of their identities on GBR's trains.
It could be simple as applying logos or applying full local branding depending on whether the trains are strictly rostered only within those areas.
E.g. the 195s could have as many as four logos covering Merseyside, Greater Manchester, West and South Yorkshire because they regularly travel between those areas.
Or, if trains are only intended to run within the combined authorities areas, then full local branding could be used eg Bee Network livery on routes wholly operating within Greater Manchester.

 

[DelW]

Although it does cause a huge transition problem if ticket and itinerary wording are not amended to cover both names whilst repaints take place (which might be 8 years)

When franchises changed, the norm was to put a vinyl patch with the new franchise's name over the logo or name of the departing operator. There are still a few white 159s running around with a vinyl SWR logo stuck over the original Stagecoach SWT branding, nearly nine years on. The same applied to the whole 455 fleet until earlier this year. The patches were in the original SWT background colour (approximately).

 

[Warrior2852]

When franchises changed, the norm was to put a vinyl patch with the new franchise's name over the logo or name of the departing operator. There are still a few white 159s running around with a vinyl SWR logo stuck over the original Stagecoach SWT branding, nearly nine years on. The same applied to the whole 455 fleet until earlier this year. The patches were in the original SWT background colour (approximately).

Most of EMR's 158s are in the same situation with the old Stagecoach white. That's being dealt with during the current refurb programme though.

 

[vuzzeho]

Isn't a big benefit of GBR ticket reform? Presumably the issue of GBR regional operator only tickets will be stamped out soon enough.

 

[Hadders]

They won't need to worry about being penalty fared because they're on the wrong operator's service. From their perspective the specific regional division name branded on the train no longer matters.

Assume you’re happy to say goodbye to good value flexible tickets then, that are currently TOC only. London to Crewe with WMT, or London to Peterborough with GTR for example.

 

[thomalex]

Isn't a big benefit of GBR ticket reform? Presumably the issue of GBR regional operator only tickets will be stamped out soon enough.

I think the big thing missing here is that we're moving into what will be an interim phase rather than how GBR will actually be operating say 5 years from now. The bill to establish it hasn't passed parliament yet, and could be subject to changes, and then as Heidi Alexander said it will take a year from that bill being passed for GBR to actually begin operation. TOCs are also still in the process of transferring to public ownership and will continue till 2027.

Things like operator only tickets will continue for this period, hence why all the TOCs are essentially remaining just with some tweaks to their naming. Once GBR is actually up and running however I believe we'll start to move away from those TOCs towards larger regional sectors, distinct Intercity services and common ticketing with offers which run at regional or national level rather than individual TOCs.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Assume you’re happy to say goodbye to good value flexible tickets then, that are currently TOC only. London to Crewe with WMT, or London to Peterborough with GTR for example.

Not taking a view on the overall situation, but is it not the case that TOC - only tickets were introduced to ensure 100% revenue allocation? It would be interesting to know what proportion of revenue is still being allocated through ORCATS.
GBR would still need to know revenue by service group, of course, just as BR did.

 

[Hadders]

Not taking a view on the overall situation, but is it not the case that TOC - only tickets were introduced to ensure 100% revenue allocation? It would be interesting to know what proportion of revenue is still being allocated through ORCATS.
GBR would still need to know revenue by service group, of course, just as BR did.

I don’t know about ORCATS allocation but if the WMT only tickets between London and Crewe are abolished, forcing passengers to purchase the expensive Any Permitted ticket they will travel with Avanti, causing overcrowding while the WMT trains convey fresh air.

These fares have really grown the market - it wasn’t that long ago that intermediate journeys between stations on the Trent Valley were catered for by a train every other hour.

Someone will say that Advance fares will be used to manage the numbers but is that really what passengers want? One of the advantages of travelling by train is the flexibility.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I don’t know about ORCATS allocation but if the WMT only tickets between London and Crewe are abolished, forcing passengers to purchase the expensive Any Permitted ticket they will travel with Avanti, causing overcrowding while the WMT trains convey fresh air.

These fares have really grown the market - it wasn’t that long ago that intermediate journeys between stations on the Trent Valley were catered for by a train every other hour.

Someone will say that Advance fares will be used to manage the numbers but is that really what passengers want? One of the advantages of travelling by train is the flexibility.

There are many consequences of 'Great British Railways' being a single operator and the situation you have outlined is just one of them.
One would like to think that all this has been thought through by those much wiser than us in Government before starting to repaint trains in the unified livery. Painting trains seems to me to be the easy bit; long ago in management training (on BR) I was taught that you did the important tasks first, not the easy ones, so it's obviously all under control...

 

[DelW]

Assume you’re happy to say goodbye to good value flexible tickets then, that are currently TOC only. London to Crewe with WMT, or London to Peterborough with GTR for example.

In the specific case of WMT, that could be dealt with by making the cheaper tickets valid on trains via Northampton only. It wouldn't be as simple where operators share routes throughout, though. I'd suggest Thameslink would need to be kept as a separate "brand", since its services are quite distinct from others on the same lines both north and south of London. IIRC BR differentiated them before privatisation.

 

[Hadders]

In the specific case of WMT, that could be dealt with by making the cheaper tickets valid on trains via Northampton only.

WMT’s London to Crewe trains don’t go via Northampton.

 

[Invincible]

Just thought I’d point out that Northern (or whatever its predecessor was called) were trailblazers with a very very early attempt at a red white and blue livery on their mashup of northern/WYMetro liveries. That was 12 or more years ago

Link is to a publicly available Flickr photo which is not mine.

But soon after the franchise went to Arriva with a new livery, promises of new trains and some problems got worse, especially with a new timetable. Arriva was owned by Deutschbann (mostly owned by the German Government) who wanted to sell Arriva

Transformation of Rail in the North Begins | Northern News

Northern takes it first step in a multi-million fleet refurbishment programme.

media.northernrailway.co.uk

The unit is the first of its kind to receive Northern’s new external livery featuring a fresh, modern look for the operator.

The interior of the train has also changed. Carriages have been repainted, new carpets have been laid, and seat cushions have been replaced and recovered. New LED lighting has also been fitted to create a lighter and brighter on board environment

 

[Warrior2852]

In the specific case of WMT, that could be dealt with by making the cheaper tickets valid on trains via Northampton only. It wouldn't be as simple where operators share routes throughout, though. I'd suggest Thameslink would need to be kept as a separate "brand", since its services are quite distinct from others on the same lines both north and south of London. IIRC BR differentiated them before privatisation.

It's the LNWR Birmingham stoppers that go via Northampton, not the Crewe trains. They go on the main line.

 

[Mike Machin]

Surely people can tell the difference between a train with a pointy nose that goes to St Pancras on a different type of railway and one with a flat front that doesn't?

Most unlikely. People in general just don’t notice such things, which are to them, it’s just triviality. For most people, the appearanc/design of a train is no more interesting than the colour of a particular patch of tarmac, the shape of some paving stones or the height of a fence.

Some people will have a vague recollection of the colour of a train, just as people will sometimes say that they saw someone get out of for example ‘a blue car,’ but very few would particularly recall the overall design of a train unless they were either interested or involved with railways or had a particular interest in design or art.

As I posted earlier, some people do notice colour etc., but many do not. A friend of mine has her garden backing directly onto the Portsmouth to Waterloo line just outside Havant. She has a completely unrestricted view to the railway and the trains pass relatively slowly as the slow down for, or accelerate away from the stop at Havant station. When the new SWR livery started to become commonplace, I asked her what she thought of the new colours and branding. I was surprised when she said she hadn’t noticed, A week or so later when I was visiting her, I pointed out that the passing train was in the newer SWR branding, to which she replie ‘what’s the difference?’

Thinking that she was being unusually unobservant and thinking that I was odd for even noticing, over the next few days she asked a few of her neighbours. None of them had noticed either!

We tend to ruminate over such matters to the enth degree, but to most people, any train, regardless of shape or colour it is ‘just a train’. Unless it happens to be steam…

 

[Tobberz]

I hope we don't have "South Western" and "South East" --> please please let there be some rationality regarding the use of -ern suffixes. I presume this was an error.

 

[Warrior2852]

I hope we don't have "South Western" and "South East" --> please please let there be some rationality regarding the use of -ern suffixes. I presume this was an error.

Doesn't seem to be a error as the same thing has also been done to "Southern" and "North".

 

[Tobberz]

Doesn't seem to be a error as the same thing has also been done to "Southern" and "North".

This pains me deeply inside...

 

[adc82140]

I hope we don't have "South Western" and "South East" --> please please let there be some rationality regarding the use of -ern suffixes. I presume this was an error.

We could have Solent & Wessex and Kent Link

 

[GoneSouth]

eg Bee Network livery on routes wholly operating within Greater Manchester.

Are there any?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 May 2026 ==

But soon after the franchise went to Arriva with a new livery, promises of new trains and some problems got worse, especially with a new timetable. Arriva was owned by Deutschbann (mostly owned by the German Government) who wanted to sell Arriva

Transformation of Rail in the North Begins | Northern News

Northern takes it first step in a multi-million fleet refurbishment programme.

media.northernrailway.co.uk

Oh I’m not saying it lasted long, just that it was a leader in the red white and blue livery race.

Actually now I think about it, second to NSE which looked much better!

 

[Class 466]

Are there any?

There will be… currently there’s the Wigan NW - Manchester Victoria via Golborne service at least.

 

[gc4946]

There will be… currently there’s the Wigan NW - Manchester Victoria via Golborne service at least.

Also Manchester Piccadilly-Rose Hill Marple wholly within Greater Manchester. You could argue several services starting and/or terminating just outside Greater Manchester could justify trains carrying full Bee Network branding eg Manchester Piccadilly-Glossop/Hadfield and Manchester Piccadilly-New Mills Central.

In the specific case of WMT, that could be dealt with by making the cheaper tickets valid on trains via Northampton only. It wouldn't be as simple where operators share routes throughout, though. I'd suggest Thameslink would need to be kept as a separate "brand", since its services are quite distinct from others on the same lines both north and south of London. IIRC BR differentiated them before privatisation.

GBR will most likely differentiate fares through route restrictions, category of service and calling patterns, as well as peak/off-peak.