What is a "seven day railway" and what are its implications?

[Bletchleyite]

Sunday morning it isn't. I see seven day as being a SX all week.

SX all week doesn't make sense. Weekday peak extras for example would be carting fresh air if they operated on a Sunday. Yes, you could do it all by way of train lengths, but it would result in a lot of overcrowding. And your high demand period out of London on regional services on a Saturday is a bit earlier than weekdays.

I think I'd just concentrate on the main issue being the need to move to a proper 7 day shift pattern for staff so we don't end up with nonsense like Northern at present, and we don't have any lines without a Sunday service entirely because that belongs in the 1970s when Sundays weren't a shopping day.

To me the base WCML service is probably what you want on a 7 day railway, then you build extras on top of it. That would probably be a lower base than the present one - say hourly Liverpool. hourly fast Scotland, 2tph (half hourly*) Brum, 2tph Manc (one via Crewe, one via Stoke, the faster of the two getting the MKC stop). Then you build extras on top of the base "Takt" based on demand, ideally up to 4tph in the high peak (the high IC peak being away from London Friday evening, towards it Sunday afternoon". Or on the local services it'd be the MKC stopper, the Brums and the Crewe, with the Tring semifasts laid on top as needed.

Yes, oddly enough this is what SBB does!

The late start of the Sunday shopping day is also relevant.

* Ideally similar running times, but it's hard to get it bang on because there are 3, not 2, key intermediate stops on the south WCML. So I'd probably go MKC in both, Rugby in one and Watford in one to balance it to close to half hourly at most points. Though pathing constraints may influence what can be done here.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

SX all week doesn't make sense. Weekday peak extras for example would be carting fresh air if they operated on a Sunday. Yes, you could do it all by way of train lengths, but it would result in a lot of overcrowding. And your high demand period out of London on regional services on a Saturday is a bit earlier than weekdays.

I think I'd just concentrate on the main issue being the need to move to a proper 7 day shift pattern for staff so we don't end up with nonsense like Northern at present, and we don't have any lines without a Sunday service entirely because that belongs in the 1970s when Sundays weren't a shopping day.

To me the base WCML service is probably what you want on a 7 day railway, then you build extras on top of it. That would probably be a lower base than the present one - say hourly Liverpool. hourly fast Scotland, 2tph (half hourly*) Brum, 2tph Manc (one via Crewe, one via Stoke, the faster of the two getting the MKC stop). Then you build extras on top of the base "Takt" based on demand, ideally up to 4tph in the high peak (the high IC peak being away from London Friday evening, towards it Sunday afternoon". Or on the local services it'd be the MKC stopper, the Brums and the Crewe, with the Tring semifasts laid on top as needed.

Yes, oddly enough this is what SBB does!

The late start of the Sunday shopping day is also relevant.

* Ideally similar running times, but it's hard to get it bang on because there are 3, not 2, key intermediate stops on the south WCML. So I'd probably go MKC in both, Rugby in one and Watford in one to balance it to close to half hourly at most points. Though pathing constraints may influence what can be done here.

In South London it feels like our timetables are going back to the days of commute by train, family car on Saturdays, church and a roast with Granny on a Sunday.

 

[Leogilbert007]

In South London it feels like our timetables are going back to the days of commute by train, family car on Saturdays, church and a roast with Granny on a Sunday.

Indeed, on Sundays I rarely bother with my local NR station and often bus it to Brixton or Clapham for the tube.

And that's in the capital... I dread to think of Sunday service in more rural areas... our metro services aren't perfect by any means, but we're still extremely lucky for Sunday service compared to the rest of the country. Engineering work obviously needs to take place but I don't have an answer on how to balance minimum disruption to passengers with humane working hours for track workers...

 

[lowe1409]

Indeed, on Sundays I rarely bother with my local NR station and often bus it to Brixton or Clapham for the tube.

And that's in the capital... I dread to think of Sunday service in more rural areas... our metro services aren't perfect by any means, but we're still extremely lucky for Sunday service compared to the rest of the country. Engineering work obviously needs to take place but I don't have an answer on how to balance minimum disruption to passengers with humane working hours for track workers...

How regularly is it that that shutdown for engineering work is used on a Sunday morning. If earlier trains were to be planned, even if at a reduced service, how often would these need to be replaced with busses? I get longer work needs to be done but even if only 50 or 60% of planned services can run as trains, at least places which might not even get a Sunday bus service at least have some transport in a morning.

 

[HSTEd]

I think a seven day railway would require a complete overhaul of how the railway is designed and operated.

The loss of a regular, obvious, (longer than one night) period for maintenance work is likely to put a premium on high availability. That might require changes to how infrastructure is designed and maintained.

I think you'd probably see a shift towards less frequent, longer, closures of specific routes planned many years in advance.

Staffing would be a major obstacle to overcome, the current system certainly would not be sustainable in a true seven day railway. You'd have to go back to first principles on railway staffing and how it interacts with the infrastructure. Probably a lot more staff unless radical cuts to staffing elsewhere in the industry can be pushed through.

Probably needs an awful lot of capital expenditure unless you are willing to pay a lot more operational subsidy to get the railway to muddle through.

 

[SynthD]

I’ve been using ‘early’ Sunday morning trains for ten years and seen growth beyond expectations. Starting an hour early would be a clear and understandable gift to that portion of customer and let us see if it’s an experiment worth continuing.

A seven day railway means staff can be given work on any of the seven days. A railway that has the work day trains on weekends and bank holidays needs a different name, a daily uniform schedule.

 

[Horizon22]

Engineering works have got to happen some time. Sunday morning is the quietest time of the network; you might argue "chicken and egg" but the same is true on the road network as well. Then Sunday generally is quieter overall, so it is likely to continue to be reduced capacity of some dsort

I think the question would be if the route / area doesn't have any engineering works then a standard Sunday service should look like the Saturday service, which itself should look like an off-peak Monday-Friday, with maybe some extras at around 1100-1300, 1800-1900 and around events.

One big issue would also be for operators where Sunday isn't in the working week fully either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2026 ==

Engineering work obviously needs to take place but I don't have an answer on how to balance minimum disruption to passengers with humane working hours for track workers...

Because there isn't one, besides less-frequent, longer blocks (say all weekend and Monday). There are simply put 168hrs in the week and some regimes are required on a more frequent basis. Track workers are already doing nights, and as far as I'm aware mostly do 12 hr days and nights.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, on Sundays I rarely bother with my local NR station and often bus it to Brixton or Clapham for the tube.

And that's in the capital... I dread to think of Sunday service in more rural areas... our metro services aren't perfect by any means, but we're still extremely lucky for Sunday service compared to the rest of the country. Engineering work obviously needs to take place but I don't have an answer on how to balance minimum disruption to passengers with humane working hours for track workers...

In Normanton, the Leeds - Sheffield Sunday service that's always been there is still a pretty lousy every two hours.

However the new York - Manchester service is a pretty good hourly !

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TfW is one TOC where the 7-day railway has not been attempted.
The Sunday services are nothing like the weekday ones, particularly on the Marches and North Wales coast routes.

With so many manual signal boxes having limited Sunday opening hours it affects the whole service level.
The services all seem to reduce to local shuttles rather than the extensive through workings on other days.

The new Liverpool-Llandudno and Manchester-Holyhead services get no further than Chester on Sundays, and there are no Crewe-Chester-Wrexham trains.

 

[Kilopylae]

Staffing would be a major obstacle to overcome

A point worth noting is that "you'll get Sundays off"/be paid overtime on Sundays is something that gets emphasised as a perk in recruitment!

Recently hired staff would no doubt feel quite short-changed if the rules suddenly changed to remove this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfW is one TOC where the 7-day railway has not been attempted.
The Sunday services are nothing like the weekday ones, particularly on the Marches and North Wales coast routes.

With so many manual signal boxes having limited Sunday opening hours it affects the whole service level.
The services all seem to reduce to local shuttles rather than the extensive through workings on other days.

The new Liverpool-Llandudno and Manchester-Holyhead services get no further than Chester on Sundays, and there are no Crewe-Chester-Wrexham trains.

I do find it very odd that TfW is basically running the pre 1998 timetable on Sundays (minus the extensions to Birmingham and plus the Conwy Valley and Llandudno all year) despite there having been 2 or 3 major weekday recasts since then.

Anyone know why? Personally I find the through Crewes useful, but it seems very odd.

 

[Iskra]

A point worth noting is that "you'll get Sundays off"/be paid overtime on Sundays is something that gets emphasised as a perk in recruitment!

Recently hired staff would no doubt feel quite short-changed if the rules suddenly changed to remove this.

It would effectively have to be ‘bought’ back off staff, so would get very expensive.

I disagree with the person upthread who referred to Sundays as quiet- they are busy on long distance and intercity routes from mid-morning until evening. Sunday is probably the day with the most potential for growth for the railway, but is the price worth it? Although that said, you (generally) don’t need too many more staff if you just run longer formations.

 

[HSTEd]

A point worth noting is that "you'll get Sundays off"/be paid overtime on Sundays is something that gets emphasised as a perk in recruitment!

Recently hired staff would no doubt feel quite short-changed if the rules suddenly changed to remove this.

No doubt there would have to be some sort of grand bargain with the unions, along with every other stakeholder, if a seven day railway is to be brought to fruition.

It would be a difficult task given the difficulty the railway has in modernising at the best of times.

 

[Horizon22]

A point worth noting is that "you'll get Sundays off"/be paid overtime on Sundays is something that gets emphasised as a perk in recruitment!

Recently hired staff would no doubt feel quite short-changed if the rules suddenly changed to remove this.

Well the change would be uplift their salary byt 14% to accomodate. But this regularly comes up (I expect to see shortages and cancellations in the World Cup weekend, you'll see!) and the DfT want to have their cake and eat it and appear to much prefer the status quo.

Frankly everywhere needs to get to a proper 7-day working week (including certain signal boxes) with Sundays inside before we can even seriously consider this proposal.

 

[quantinghome]

We are already running a 7-day railway. The situation is transformed compared to 30 years ago when Sunday services were patchy and slow. You only travelled on a Sunday if you really needed to. It's a very different story today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We are already running a 7-day railway. The situation is transformed compared to 30 years ago when Sunday services were patchy and slow. You only travelled on a Sunday if you really needed to. It's a very different story today.

You might want to ask that to anyone who uses Northern, particularly on routes like Ormskirk-Preston and Kirkby-Wigan but also on other routes. And also those on the Marston Vale.

 

[quantinghome]

You might want to ask that to anyone who uses Northern, particularly on routes like Ormskirk-Preston and Kirkby-Wigan but also on other routes. And also those on the Marston Vale.

The fact that you have to use those examples shows just how transformative the last decades have been for Sunday services. Imagine a world where mainline service didn't start until midday, ran every 2 hours and took an hour longer than on weekdays. That was the Sunday service in the past.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fact that you have to use those examples shows just how transformative the last decades have been for Sunday services. Imagine a world where mainline service didn't start until midday, ran every 2 hours and took an hour longer than on weekdays. That was the Sunday service in the past.

It's certainly improved, I recall the first northbound from Preston on a Sunday that went any further than Windermere was 1500ish in the late 1990s, aside from DalesRail.

 

[yorksrob]

The fact that you have to use those examples shows just how transformative the last decades have been for Sunday services. Imagine a world where mainline service didn't start until midday, ran every 2 hours and took an hour longer than on weekdays. That was the Sunday service in the past.

Yes, I can remember the Marshlink being 2-hourly on a Sunday in the 90's. Hourly now, thank goodness !

 

[lowe1409]

The fact that you have to use those examples shows just how transformative the last decades have been for Sunday services. Imagine a world where mainline service didn't start until midday, ran every 2 hours and took an hour longer than on weekdays. That was the Sunday service in the past.

Up north, its returning that way. Manchester Airport normally sees 9tph in the week, yet besides a Blackpool and a barrow just before/after 9, sees only an hourly TPE Scottish and an every other hourly Northern liverpool stopper until lunch time. Thats 1.5tph! Its unsuitable for demand, ignoring the fact that it must be surpressing some too. Those early morning trains are usualy full and standing. Services such as the Stoke-Manchester never recieved good service, even before northerns recent cuts which IIRC, was 5 a day with nothing before lunch. How many lines are there which still dont see any sunday service at all?

And despite the reduced frequencies, they still cant provide longer services. I've known the 9.36 at the airport to leave passengers behind before. I for one avoid travelling by rail on a Sunday where I can. No one wants to have to wait over an hour to be packed in like a sardine.

Another pattern I've noticed with Sundays is that alot of services seem to be timed with an expectation that they don't hang around at terminus for long. Services such as the manchester - Crewe as a result seem unable to recover delays and by the afternoon, are often perpetually late as they only get 6 or 7 minutes at each end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I can remember the Marshlink being 2-hourly on a Sunday in the 90's. Hourly now, thank goodness !

I can remember many Northern services being hourly on a Sunday in the 90s. Two-hourly now, not thank goodness!

 

[Krokodil]

TfW is one TOC where the 7-day railway has not been attempted.
The Sunday services are nothing like the weekday ones, particularly on the Marches and North Wales coast routes.

With so many manual signal boxes having limited Sunday opening hours it affects the whole service level.
The services all seem to reduce to local shuttles rather than the extensive through workings on other days.

The new Liverpool-Llandudno and Manchester-Holyhead services get no further than Chester on Sundays, and there are no Crewe-Chester-Wrexham trains.

I do find it very odd that TfW is basically running the pre 1998 timetable on Sundays (minus the extensions to Birmingham and plus the Conwy Valley and Llandudno all year) despite there having been 2 or 3 major weekday recasts since then.

Anyone know why? Personally I find the through Crewes useful, but it seems very odd.

It's particularly galling when you consider that reduced signal box hours only really apply to Llandudno, Deganwy and Llanrwst boxes, everywhere else is 24/7. Manchester trains connect with Holyhead rather than running through like they now do during the week - just watch the stampede that happens at Chester every hour on a Sunday. When they get too the platform, the train will probably be a three car 197 which was full & standing when it left Crewe. So many get left behind. The first morning train to Holyhead doesn't run during the winter either - as if people only use the ferry in summer.

 

[London Trains]

We are already running a 7-day railway. The situation is transformed compared to 30 years ago when Sunday services were patchy and slow. You only travelled on a Sunday if you really needed to. It's a very different story today.

There's no point looking at the past though - whilst there has already been massive improvements to Sunday services as you say, we should be looking to the future, and usage on Sundays continues to grow significantly, but is being massively held back by poor service levels compared to the rest of the week. A proper 7-day railway would have similar service levels throughout the week.

 

[Iskra]

There's no point looking at the past though - whilst there has already been massive improvements to Sunday services as you say, we should be looking to the future, and usage on Sundays continues to grow significantly, but is being massively held back by poor service levels compared to the rest of the week. A proper 7-day railway would have similar service levels throughout the week.

And how are you delivering (paying for) that?

 

[yorksrob]

There's no point looking at the past though - whilst there has already been massive improvements to Sunday services as you say, we should be looking to the future, and usage on Sundays continues to grow significantly, but is being massively held back by poor service levels compared to the rest of the week. A proper 7-day railway would have similar service levels throughout the week.

Yes, poor Whitby doesn't even have a five day service worthy the name, let alone seven.

 

[Sonic1234]

And how are you delivering (paying for) that?

By more people travelling. A lot will not travel by train on Sunday due to poor service, poor connections etc.

 

[HSTEd]

By more people travelling. A lot will not travel by train on Sunday due to poor service, poor connections etc.

As it stands, railway industry costs are only about half paid by passenger fares.

Spending that much money on additional sunday operations will likely result in a major net increase in subsidy.

Ihat will have to be clawed out of the treasury somehow.

 

[MatthewHutton]

As it stands, railway industry costs are only about half paid by passenger fares.

Spending that much money on additional sunday operations will likely result in a major net increase in subsidy.

Ihat will have to be clawed out of the treasury somehow.

To be fair a lot that isn’t covered by passenger fares is the fixed costs.

 

[The Planner]

If a true early start 7 day railway is expected, then its going to have to accept situations where its going to be closed for periodic longer durations to deal with maintenance. There is clearly a lot to be done in the technology space where train based, adjacent line open and keeping boots off ballast can be achieved, but we still aren't there yet.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It would be great if Sundays had Saturday timetables.
Having the weekend actually be 2 usable days would be good.

The only 2 days I've been outside the house on a Sunday in the last year are when was already on holiday (Berlin and London respectively, who both have usable Sunday services), since on Sundays I can barely get anywhere and have to rely on a 0.5tph (instead of 2tph Mon-Sat) service.