Avanti To Remove 38 Trains a Week for 6 Weeks in the Summer

[Stephen42]

I'm not sure what the person you're quoting is talking about - Southeastern and GWR services are affected by line closures, and I can see the removal of a few peak extras for Southern, but I can't find any of these ridiculous, swathing cuts to off-peak services for any other TOCs.

Thameslink at Greenwich is one, 1tph of the off-peak service has switched to Unadvertised Passenger Service (runs as required) in the data. That's also the same on a Saturday. Several trains at Brighton are also runs as required mid week including some off peak. It doesn't look like there are many others though.

 

[Qwerty133]

Are they picking on Avanti as one of the few that are left in private hands as it wouldn't be a good look on the nationalised operators? Also odd given AWC are the only operator other than GA to pay a premia. However, if the operator is still highly dependant on rest day working/overtime makes sense to in the holiday period rather than have random cancellations daily. Thing to watch is whether all services get reinstated of course

Alternatively given it is well known that rest day working is less popular during the school holidays they could all ways weight annual leave towards term time weeks. Cancel all of these services for all of June, the first 2 weeks of July and all of September (when there will be less demand off peak) and put the crews on enforced annual leave to replace the leave cancelled to keep the full service running during the holidays.
Obviously won’t happen whilst the railways are ran as a state sponsored union approved job creation scheme rather than to make money or at least minimise losses but to cancel services during weeks they are the busiest to then reintroduce them just as the demand for them falls is absolutely mental.

 

[jfollows]

Looks like they are showing on RTT, filter for CAN, it's not as bad as a full 1tph reduction.

For Manchester the 06:23, 07:54, 12:14, 16:14, and 18:14 are cancelled, with their respective arrivals too, in addition to the 21:19 and 23:07 arrivals.

Thank you for the details. The 07:54 is a “preferred” service for me, so it’s good to know now that it won’t be running.

 

[Omnishambles]

Will additional stops such as at Lichfield / Tamworth be added to other services to compensate for the cancelled services?

Just having a random view of the 1507/1607 Liverpool service which call on the TV. These are both showing as cancelled with no variation on the xx43 services for 21/7.
Would think any additional stop orders varied in this far in advance would eventually spiral into a complete WCML (and beyond) timetable recast (?)

 

[Russel]

To me, cutting services to save costs is very much low hanging fruit.

We have a thread running on here at the moment about station lighting being left on all day, if cost savings are desired, there are far better ways to go about it.

 

[The Planner]

Won't be the first time Avanti have cut their Manchester service - wonder if we'll see a return of LSL's Friday special.

Why?

The 805s have ventured up to Carlisle a few times, albeit via the Settle line. As to who signed the route, im not too sure.

They were route conducted by freight operators.

 

[800301]

To me, cutting services to save costs is very much low hanging fruit.

We have a thread running on here at the moment about station lighting being left on all day, if cost savings are desired, there are far better ways to go about it.

There are many other ways they could get savings, but like you I don’t feel like cutting these services is going to really make a difference at a time when Pay awards are on the table along with GBR and a seven day railway

 

[Russel]

There are many other ways they could get savings, but like you I don’t feel like cutting these services is going to really make a difference at a time when Pay awards are on the table along with GBR and a seven day railway

Agreed, but it's not just that, there is also an element of revenue protection/generation not being taken seriously, my local route for example, the Birmingham Cross City is well known by regular users as being a pay when challenged service, thousands of pounds must be lost daily.

 

[John R]

Agreed, but it's not just that, there is also an element of revenue protection/generation not being taken seriously, my local route for example, the Birmingham Cross City is well known by regular users as being a pay when challenged service, thousands of pounds must be lost daily.

We see lots of WMR cases on the Disputes board, which will be the tip of the iceberg in terms of people picked up for fare evasion. So don’t think that protection of revenue is ignored on WMR.

 

[Russel]

We see lots of WMR cases on the Disputes board, which will be the tip of the iceberg in terms of people picked up for fare evasion. So don’t think that protection of revenue is ignored on WMR.

Oh I'm not suggesting it doesn't happen at all, but until recently I used the X-City 5 days a week for 3 years and any form of ticket check was extremely rare.

I'd suggest people picked up by WMR are the tip of the iceberg to be honest.

 

[Omnishambles]

Oh I'm not suggesting it doesn't happen at all, but until recently I used the X-City 5 days a week for 3 years and any form of ticket check was extremely rare.

I'd suggest people picked up by WMR are the tip of the iceberg to be honest.

Much better than it was 15-25 years ago when I can’t readily recall any regular checks. Travelled into town from Lichfield 3 or 4 times in the last 2 months and RPIs have been on trains each time. Good to see

 

[Russel]

Much better than it was 15-25 years ago when I can’t readily recall any regular checks. Travelled into town from Lichfield 3 or 4 times in the last 2 months and RPIs have been on trains each time. Good to see

Ah yes, back in the days of being able to exit New Street without a ticket if you knew how...

Not that me or any of my friends ever did that as teenagers on a Saturday afternoon during the Central Trains era of course.

 

[Kite159]

Ah yes, back in the days of being able to exit New Street without a ticket if you knew how...

Not that me or any of my friends ever did that as teenagers on a Saturday afternoon during the Central Trains era of course.

Ah the good old Navigation Street footbridge exit

As for the removed trains, better to remove them now than having to cancel on the day due to lack of staff.

 

[Benjwri]

As for the removed trains, better to remove them now than having to cancel on the day due to lack of staff.

Yes I wonder if a part of this cost saving is delay repay!

 

[AndrewE]

It'll be interesting to see what pattern they use for this. If it's the just-post-COVID 2tph timetable the 9S/9Ms will be joined to the semifast path and run using Pendolinos instead of 807s. That's actually a service upgrade for anyone using Watford Jn, MKC or Rugby.

I can understand the 3rd Brum and 2nd Liverpool going but is there really a strong case for reducing Manchester?

"The second Liverpool" is an Evero, the 9- or 11-car pendolino services no longer stop at Crewe! I hope that this service gets re-planned to ensure that the Crewe stops remain (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...7/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT says they do) but most importantly for me, they put Pendolinos on them! I hate Evero seats!

(I bet that pendos cost far less to use than Everos - but is there a contract which says Everos get paid for even if they are not used?)

 

[fishwomp]

To me, cutting services to save costs is very much low hanging fruit.

It will be proportionately better savings on Avanti than on GWR. GWR and LNER have to pay way more for their rolling stock regardless of whether it is in use. Most Avanti is on pendelino, AIUI, at around half the cost of 800x rental.. staff costs may be lower than the parked up set..

We have a thread running on here at the moment about station lighting being left on all day, if cost savings are desired, there are far better ways to go about it.

Could probably have saved a lot of money had DfT not driven the railways to buy new stock, and indeed self-designed and poorly executed the IET project.

Water under the bridge, but we still have to pay for the bridge..

 

[Snow1964]

Obviously there are a mix of 9 and 11 car pendolinos

Is there any info on if say 3 x 9 car will become 2 x 11 car

or is it simply chop trains regardless of length, rather than switch workings around to spread the seat count cut more evenly across more routes

 

[Bletchleyite]

"The second Liverpool" is an Evero, the 9- or 11-car pendolino services no longer stop at Crewe! I hope that this service gets re-planned to ensure that the Crewe stops remain (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...7/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT says they do) but most importantly for me, they put Pendolinos on them!

"The second Liverpool" is the fast one which was only added relatively recently. The core one is the one that stops at Crewe.

I hate Evero seats!

In first class I assume? In Standard they are the same seats as the Pendolino.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2026 ==

Obviously there are a mix of 9 and 11 car pendolinos

Is there any info on if say 3 x 9 car will become 2 x 11 car

or is it simply chop trains regardless of length, rather than switch workings around to spread the seat count cut more evenly across more routes

The diagrams are mixed, largely based on demand. I find Avanti does this quite well to be honest.

 

[Snow1964]

Less overtime / RDW? Presumably it’s a popular period for staff holidays as well so may also be bowing to the inevitable - lower DR payments than K sat minute cancellations.

Apart from reducing crew pressures, it will also give Alstom time to catch up on maintenance.

Surely if school summer holidays put pressure on staff availability, how is Alstom supposed to magic up extra staff at that time of year to do more maintenance

Complete contradiction on ideas here

 

[AndrewE]

"The second Liverpool" is the fast one which was only added relatively recently. The core one is the one that stops at Crewe...

and is now worked by Everos. (In my experience and today...) and https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...9/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT shows that today every single LIV-EUS which calls at Crewe is 7-car, the others are Pendolinos...

 

[Bletchleyite]

and is now worked by Everos. (In my experience and today...) and https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...9/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT shows that today every single LIV-EUS which calls at Crewe is 7-car, the others are Pendolinos...

Yes, they're 110mph paths, the other ones are 125mph paths and so have to be Pendolinos (or they lose time). Though I think there's now more 125mph running possible so this may not be quite as bad now.

Nothing says they can't be worked by Pendolinos however.

 

[The Planner]

There are many other ways they could get savings, but like you I don’t feel like cutting these services is going to really make a difference at a time when Pay awards are on the table along with GBR and a seven day railway

Seven day railway has been a buzzword for longer than I can remember, I don't see GBR fixing that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seven day railway has been a buzzword for longer than I can remember, I don't see GBR fixing that.

The WCML (south at least) basically is. The base service pattern (other than the extremes of the day and weekday peak extras) is the same all week.

The question is whether it needs to be.

 

[The Planner]

The WCML (south at least) basically is. The base service pattern (other than the extremes of the day and weekday peak extras) is the same all week.

The question is whether it needs to be.

Sunday morning it isn't. I see seven day as being a SX all week.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sunday morning it isn't. I see seven day as being a SX all week.

New thread as we're going off a bit: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...railway-and-what-are-its-implications.302329/

 

[DarloRich]

I will wait to see the practical impacts on my travel but the cuts seem limited really.

Surely if school summer holidays put pressure on staff availability, how is Alstom supposed to magic up extra staff at that time of year to do more maintenance

Do Alstom run thier business on overtime?

 

[Peter0124]

Yes, they're 110mph paths, the other ones are 125mph paths and so have to be Pendolinos (or they lose time). Though I think there's now more 125mph running possible so this may not be quite as bad now.

Nothing says they can't be worked by Pendolinos however.

The Liverpool South Parkway calls would need to be scrapped if Pendolinos run. Though according to RTT I have seen the occasional pendolino call there rather than pass through, unsure if thats a mistake.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Liverpool South Parkway calls would need to be scrapped if Pendolinos run.

Fair point.

Though according to RTT I have seen the occasional pendolino call there rather than pass through, unsure if thats a mistake.

I doubt they actually did. I have been on a Pendolino that did call (and terminate) there after Lime St was closed for an extended period due to some sort of disruption, but the only door they could open was the one in the van area of Coach A so tipping it out took rather a while and had there been a wheelchair user on board they would presumably have had to be carried out as per a railside evacuation. I suspect there's a reasonable chance the Pendolino I was on that did that was the only one to ever make a passenger call there thus far.

I seem to recall it was on the barely-used slow line platform, too!

 

[voyagerdude220]

The Liverpool South Parkway calls would need to be scrapped if Pendolinos run. Though according to RTT I have seen the occasional pendolino call there rather than pass through, unsure if thats a mistake.

Usually Avanti scrap calls at Liverpool South Parkway when Pendolinos end up forming services booked to call there. Ditto Hartford.

 

[Russel]

Ah the good old Navigation Street footbridge exit

Not forgetting the lift from the subway that came out in the taxi rank!