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ScotRail penalty fare

styles

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On awaiting my train this morning there was an Automated announcement stating from 1st June anyone without a ticket will be charged a single fare of £10. A bargain on longer trips!
It's a minimum fare.

Realistically it's to deal with people hopping on and off around the Central Belt where short trips are common and barriers uncommon.

£10 is still quite low though. I anticipate it'll still be worthwhile for many people to chance it. If the fare is normally £5, it only takes a couple of trips to make your minimum fare back!
 
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Starmill

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It's a minimum fare.

Realistically it's to deal with people hopping on and off around the Central Belt where short trips are common and barriers uncommon.

£10 is still quite low though. I anticipate it'll still be worthwhile for many people to chance it. If the fare is normally £5, it only takes a couple of trips to make your minimum fare back!
Presumably it's mostly not there to try and get people who pay £5 to pay at all though. It's there to be able to force people who do say Maxwell Park - Glasgow Central for £2.60 single to actually pay before boarding. Otherwise the vast majority of the time they're just going to be charged £2.60 by the ticket examiner or gate staff. If they want to keep on paying on the train they can but now it'll cost £10.
 

styles

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Presumably it's mostly not there to try and get people who pay £5 to pay at all though. It's there to be able to force people who do say Maxwell Park - Glasgow Central for £2.60 single to actually pay before boarding. Otherwise the vast majority of the time they're just going to be charged £2.60 by the ticket examiner or gate staff. If they want to keep on paying on the train they can but now it'll cost £10.

Yeah that's kinda what I'm getting at. It's there for the reason you say, but I fear £10 minimum fare is small enough that attempting to continue fare-dodging is still worthwhile. In the Maxwell Park to Glasgow example, they only need to get away with it 75% of the time for it to be worthwhile.
 

Kite159

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Presumably it's mostly not there to try and get people who pay £5 to pay at all though. It's there to be able to force people who do say Maxwell Park - Glasgow Central for £2.60 single to actually pay before boarding. Otherwise the vast majority of the time they're just going to be charged £2.60 by the ticket examiner or gate staff. If they want to keep on paying on the train they can but now it'll cost £10.
I would say it's more aimed for those travelling between two unbarriered stations, travelling to a barriered station like Glasgow Central most people will buy a ticket (might not be the correct ticket for the journey)
 

zero

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Yeah that's kinda what I'm getting at. It's there for the reason you say, but I fear £10 minimum fare is small enough that attempting to continue fare-dodging is still worthwhile. In the Maxwell Park to Glasgow example, they only need to get away with it 75% of the time for it to be worthwhile.
Or conversely Scotrail only needs to catch them 25% of the time to be paid the amount they want to be.
 

furlong

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Have they revealed details yet of how they intend to implement this in law?
 

AlterEgo

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Not required - it.s a commercial decision and customers are being advised of the new minimum fare. Did you mean on refusal or inability to pay?
It's not in the passenger contract, the NRCoT, which may prove problematic.
 

Starmill

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Not required - it.s a commercial decision and customers are being advised of the new minimum fare. Did you mean on refusal or inability to pay?
Commercial decisions don't have force in law unless both parties have agreed to them...
 

kkong

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It's not in the passenger contract, the NRCoT, which may prove problematic.

It was mentioned in the other thread on this subject that one way would be to increase the Anytime fares for journeys which currently cost <£10, to £10.

Notwithstanding the abolition of peak fares on ScotRail flows, the fares still exist and there is (with the usual exceptions) no entitlement to buy an Off-Peak ticket on board if there were facilities to purchase before boarding.

However we will have to wait for an announcement from ScotRail - or hear the first reports of what is happening - to know for sure.
 

AlterEgo

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It was mentioned in the other thread on this subject that one way would be to increase the Anytime fares for journeys which currently cost <£10, to £10.
That would also do it, but we've seen nothing yet!
 

RPI

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It's not in the passenger contract, the NRCoT, which may prove problematic.
I expect there will be a ticket type such as an SOS (Anytime Single) as opposed to an Anytime Day Single or something, makes issuing Unpaid Fare Notices easy too as £10 may be worth chasing.
 

Buzby

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Commercial decisions don't have force in law unless both parties have agreed to them...
Tell that to the private parking companies. By using the service the passenger is deemed to have accepted the prevailing conditions. Just watch the debt collection contracts being awarded for recovery!
 

AlterEgo

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Tell that to the private parking companies. By using the service the passenger is deemed to have accepted the prevailing conditions. Just watch the debt collection contracts being awarded for recovery!
But it's just been pointed out that those aren't the conditions. That's literally not in the contract. So when are the Anytime fares changing then?
 

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It'll take more than merely changing the Anytime fares. I can't personally see any way to do it without issuing a new version of the NRCOT.
 

AlterEgo

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They are. As mentioned earlier, they form the basis of an audible warning advising of the upcoming start date,
That is not the passenger contract. The NRCoT are definitive and cannot be superseded to disfavour the customer. They clearly set out the remedies available to train companies when passengers have boarded without a ticket. You can't just make up an extra condition, decide to put it on accouncements, and not update the passenger contract.

If Scotrail are actually doing what you say and neither updating the passenger contract nor adjusting Anytime fares to reach minima then it'll be great fun when they sting the wrong person. This is just making stuff up as you go along instead of doing things properly, if that really is the case.
 

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It's also deeply concerning that if you follow the link given earlier to their web page describing this, they have based it on a copy of the NRCOT two versions out-of-date!
 

Buzby

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That is not the passenger contract.
Perhaps not the one you are wishing for, but in the scale of things it’s hardly a big worry. They claim they are losing money to fraud and are trying to address it. Perhaps they are showing contempt for NRCOT, or perhaps not. It may have to be argued in court but show me where it stated there can only be a single arbiter of a change? This is a separate country with its own Education, Legal and transportation systems. Should they wish to modify any of them then providing such change is promulgated then if it’s good for everyone else, it’s good enough for them. They can create their own legislation if required, and often do,
 

AlterEgo

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Perhaps not the one you are wishing for, but in the scale of things it’s hardly a big worry.
Not yet it isn't. I expect the fact many TOCs in England were prosecuting people under SJPN when it was unlawful thought it was no biggie - after all:

They claim they are losing money to fraud and are trying to address it.
- a laudable aim! Of course TOCs should attempt to do this. And there are loads of ways they can do so. In Scotland, a prosecution or Penalty Fare is not possible as there is no legal basis to do either of these things meaningfully, but the passenger contract can actually be changed; the NRCoT has had dozens of revisions (most recently, last month, *after* Scotrail had this idea) and the insertion of a clause, like:

9.2.4. To charge you a minimum fare, which may in addition to any undiscounted single fare to a station served by the train you are on. Information about the minimum fare must be made available to the passenger through notices at the stations served by that Train Company.

or similar, would be very easy to do! Look, it's just a sentence! And that provides the lawful basis to charge a minimum fare.

Alternatively, the prices of Anytime fares could simply be adjusted which makes the actions comply with 9.2.1, but that hasn't happened yet.

Perhaps they are showing contempt for NRCOT, or perhaps not.
Yeah, who even cares what the law says?

It may have to be argued in court but show me where it stated there can only be a single arbiter of a change?
I don't understand this angle. Are you saying "changes to the passenger contract can happen outwith the NRCoT"? Because that would render them meaningless; that is the passenger:train company contract, and a train company cannot make up its own conditions to the detriment of the customer and to the advantage of itself. It's been explained already that the NRCoT outline very clearly what the train company may do to ticketless passengers. This means they cannot just make up their own charges.

They can create their own legislation if required, and often do,
It's actually very difficult under Scots Law to make a change to the legislation. In Scotland, companies can't prosecute offences and they can't issue arbitrary penalties. So there isn't really much leeway for Scotrail to do this. Indeed, the minimum fare can't be seen as an arbitrary penalty like a pseudo-penalty fare, which is partly why it is so low - but it must therefore also be part of the fare structure.

If you don't know what mechanism Scotrail are using to provide lawful authority to do this, that's fine. Just say you don't know, or don't contribute to the discussion.

But it's important that Scotrail get this right.

Firstly, yes - the Central Belt and the suburbans have a huge amount of fare evasion on short trips from people just chancing it. And it's important that the company takes steps to safeguard a service we all pay for either through the farebox or subsidy through taxation. What you really don't want is a rushed change where the company decides to act in a way which is later deemed not to be lawful, which would result in thousands of people who were chancing their arm at a free ride getting their tenners back. That will cause the industry to look very bad and cause political ripple effects. In England, the unlawful or unprofessional behaviour of some TOCs in pursuing fare evasion has resulted in central government curtailing some of their activities. That's not actually a positive change; down here, a vast amount of what would be - in any other arena - criminal fraud, is being committed by passengers against train companies. The decision to lower the consequences for these people by not prosecuting them while keeping sanctions for passengers who have made a genuine mistake is not protecting the railway's interests, nor is it delivering justice.
 
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Tetchytyke

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It'll take more than merely changing the Anytime fares. I can't personally see any way to do it without issuing a new version of the NRCOT.
It's a bit of a clunky way of doing it, but charging the "full undiscounted single fare" where you don't buy before boarding (usual caveats apply) is allowed under the NRCoT. So if they make the short journeys have a "full undiscounted single fare" of at least £10, they've done what they need to do.

It's a similar principle to how some bus companies have a "standard fare" of £60 which is charged if you don't buy the correct ticket; the correct ticket is, contractually, merely a discount from that standard fare.
 

furlong

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Read the whole piece. That's only a partial implementation (cash when card-only machine?), and relies on courts accepting their contentious definition of 'undiscounted' - if courts were to accept the natural legal meaning (no railcards or discount offers) instead of the twisted railway one (most expensive public fare offered that nobody else has to pay - IOW turning it into a de facto penalty clause which on the face of it, it is not intended to be), you're risking a massive future problem paying everyone back! As already discussed, when introducing a policy like this, you need to minimise all the potential legal risk to it that you can identify so there can be no doubts whatsoever about its complete enforceability.

The concept of a Standard Fare as a penalty, is long established elsewhere in other transport undertakings, and they should just incorporate something like that explicitly, drawing from uncontroversial prior art, rather than attempting something clever that might backfire on them. If they do it well, some of the non-Scottish operators might like to opt in too to offer them a straightforward alternative to the horrendous Penalty Fares regime they currently suffer!
 
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Bletchleyite

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The concept of a Standard Fare as a penalty, is long established elsewhere in other transport undertakings, and they should just incorporate something like that explicitly, drawing from uncontroversial prior art, rather than attempting something clever that might backfire on them. If they do it well, some of the non-Scottish operators might like to opt in too to offer them a straightforward alternative to the horrendous Penalty Fares regime they currently suffer!

I don't think the people this will largely apply to, namely "neds" (Scottish evading short distance fares, are going to be mounting legal challenges. I expect that may be why they did it this way rather than a penalty on top of the fare.

It's also something Edinburgh Trams have done since they opened, a fixed £10 on board fare (no normal fares exceed £10 on the trams) which it is totally legitimate to choose to pay if you wish, e.g. because you're about to miss your flight and need to board the tram that's there, not wait for the next one. I guess they would have ironed out any likely legal issues given that they've been going well over 10 years now.
 

AlterEgo

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I don't think the people this will largely apply to, namely "neds" (Scottish evading short distance fares, are going to be mounting legal challenges. I expect that may be why they did it this way rather than a penalty on top of the fare.
In Scotland it is not lawful for companies to levy arbitrary penalties, that is why there is no Penalty Fare scheme up there.

It's also something Edinburgh Trams have done since they opened, a fixed £10 on board fare (no normal fares exceed £10 on the trams) which it is totally legitimate to choose to pay if you wish, e.g. because you're about to miss your flight and need to board the tram that's there, not wait for the next one. I guess they would have ironed out any likely legal issues given that they've been going well over 10 years now.
They don't have a conditions of carriage document which explicitly lays out the consequences for joining ticketless, so they can put the £10 on board fare into the fares structure without issue.
 

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They don't have a conditions of carriage document which explicitly lays out the consequences for joining ticketless, so they can put the £10 on board fare into the fares structure without issue.

Is ScotRail not putting it into their CoC document? It is clearly a lower consequence than being penalty fared or prosecuted, so wouldn't fall foul of the principle that you can't, except where explicitly set out, offer less than the National Rail Conditions of Travel do.

Yes, there are no PFs in Scotland and a prosecution is rather hard to do, but they're still the nominal NRCoT consequences aside from just being sold a ticket.
 

AlterEgo

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Is ScotRail not putting it into their CoC document?
No. Scotrail doesn't have its own CoC of course.

Is ScotRail not putting it into their CoC document? It is clearly a lower consequence than being penalty fared or prosecuted, so wouldn't fall foul of the principle that you can't, except where explicitly set out, offer less than the National Rail Conditions of Travel do.
But the same NRCoT says you may be sold the undiscounted fare which is basically the Anytime. So you can't charge more than that. That's why they have to adjust the Anytimes or add a clause into the NRCoT to provide a lawful basis. Both are easy to do, if you're not lazy.
 

Bletchleyite

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No. Scotrail doesn't have its own CoC of course.

Why of course? Other semi-devolved TOCs do, such as Merseyrail. They just can't be worse than the NRCoT, and this aspect isn't because it's better than being prosecuted. (It's a very theoretical possibility in Scotland but it's *possible*, just doesn't happen often).

But the same NRCoT says you may be sold the undiscounted fare which is basically the Anytime. So you can't charge more than that. That's why they have to adjust the Anytimes or add a clause into the NRCoT to provide a lawful basis. Both are easy to do, if you're not lazy.

I'd be surprised if they do nothing, but equally the target market for this isn't going to be mounting legal challenges on technicalities over a tenner. They'll just pay when challenged as before, but they'll pay £10 instead of £3 (or whatever the fare is) and that means they'll pay roughly what they should pay overall, roughly, they'll just pay it in larger chunks.
 

AlterEgo

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Why of course? Other semi-devolved TOCs do, such as Merseyrail.
No they don't. Are you thinking of Passengers' Charters? These set out the company's commitment to the passenger and aren't a conditions of carriage document.
 

Buzby

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Yeah, who even cares what the law says?
One of the main reasons Scotland didn’t go down the SJPN route. There are times Scotland leads, (Smoking Ban, Bag charges, and we would have had drinks container recycling but Westminster tories reneged and left ScotGov in limbo). Other times we may play catch-up, but SJPN was never on the cards.
 

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