Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[zwk500]

Which shows how lack of competition is affecting prices

London-Paris via Lille is about 510km, Paris-Bordeaux is further, about 580km

So paying about 4 times the price per kilometre on Eurostar.
Even if factor in premium for using tunnel, it's hard to comprehend how it gets to as much as 4 times the rate for using Atlantique LGV track

Why is this automatically 'lack of competition' and not a reflection of the greater running costs that come with operating a controlled international service via an extremely expensive piece of infrastructure to run?

Paris-Bordeaux doesn't need to pay for Passport and bag scanning, nor a 50km tunnel under the sea.

 

[cle]

It might not be as frequent as the flagship London to Paris or Brussels trains, but London to Geneva/Basel could definitely have a market for the business traveller who might want to get work done while on the move or just prefers the comfort of rail travel compared to flying. I think SBB in particular have been eyeing up potential services including hopes for international 300km/h rolling stock alongside Eurostar's new rolling stock order.

I could see it being interesting. Basel does have a good amount of business - more understated than Geneva or Zurich but a lot of pharma, finance, art/luxury too - and it has a large catchment being such a hub. Geneva I would probably have routed differently.

And Zurich is the largest Swiss market and business place - but lacks the tourism / skiing demand of Geneva.

You'd probably do:
London - non-stop Marne la Vallee (split) - front set to Basel and Zurich, back set to Geneva non-stop... reinstating Disney / outer Paris parkway service in the process. Twice a day each way, to start.

 

[Sorcerer]

I could see it being interesting. Basel does have a good amount of business - more understated than Geneva or Zurich but a lot of pharma, finance, art/luxury too - and it has a large catchment being such a hub. Geneva I would probably have routed differently.

And Zurich is the largest Swiss market and business place - but lacks the tourism / skiing demand of Geneva.

You'd probably do:
London - non-stop Marne la Vallee (split) - front set to Basel and Zurich, back set to Geneva non-stop... reinstating Disney / outer Paris parkway service in the process. Twice a day each way, to start.

Zurich might have good catchment but it's quite central and would require travelling over the Swiss network. This wouldn't be a problem when running on-time but it would need to be integrated into the Taktfahrplan, and any delays would likely mean stopping at the border in Basel like they do with many Deutsche Bahn services. So Zurich would tricky but the revenue may be worth it.

 

[Krokodil]

Zurich might have good catchment but it's quite central and would require travelling over the Swiss network. This wouldn't be a problem when running on-time but it would need to be integrated into the Taktfahrplan, and any delays would likely mean stopping at the border in Basel like they do with many Deutsche Bahn services. So Zurich would tricky but the revenue may be worth it.

Wouldn't it just use Lyria paths in the hours those do not run?

 

[Austriantrain]

Wouldn't it just use Lyria paths in the hours those do not run?

How? It wouldn’t be accessible to domestic passengers, unlike Lyris (and their paths are used by other Takt services anyway).

If E* goes all the way to Zurich, it will have a slowish path outside the Takt.

 

[Sorcerer]

Wouldn't it just use Lyria paths in the hours those do not run?

Even if it did it would still have to run to the Takt or it might be terminated short at the border. SBB are very good with it comes to connecting passengers since they have experience doing it with DB so it probably wouldn't be quite so disruptive as it would elsewhere, but any new Eurostar paths going to Zurich would need the service to be running on time.

 

[signed]

What competition is there to SNCF on Paris - Bordeaux?

Velvet has received its first unit and will be starting serving that route (along with Paris-Nantes) from May 2028.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2026 ==

How? It wouldn’t be accessible to domestic passengers, unlike Lyris (and their paths are used by other Takt services anyway).

Nobody knows what will happen with Lyria when SBB gets it's fleet of international trains... I have my opinion about that whole situation but I will leave it outside of this Channel services thread

 

[Austriantrain]

Nobody knows what will happen with Lyria when SBB gets it's fleet of international trains... I have my opinion about that whole situation but I will leave it outside of this Channel services thread

Not sure how this is relevant. Any train in a Takt path needs to carry domestic passengers and have enough capacity to do so, indeed AFAIK some Lyria get a second set only between Basel und Zurich. Any other service will need to run around the Takt and will invariably get slower paths on a congested part of the network.

And open access on passenger services is not a thing in Switzerland. Also, SBB have stated various times that they will not run trains abroad in competition to the „state operators“ (as well they should, since they have a domestic monopoly and want to keep it).

 

[43096]

Velvet has received its first unit and will be starting serving that route (along with Paris-Nantes) from May 2028.

That's two years away and irrelevant in tems of pricing now. So the answer is that both Eurostar on London - Paris and SNCF on Paris - Bordeaux have no rail competition.

 

[cle]

Not sure how this is relevant. Any train in a Takt path needs to carry domestic passengers and have enough capacity to do so, indeed AFAIK some Lyria get a second set only between Basel und Zurich. Any other service will need to run around the Takt and will invariably get slower paths on a congested part of the network.

And open access on passenger services is not a thing in Switzerland. Also, SBB have stated various times that they will not run trains abroad in competition to the „state operators“ (as well they should, since they have a domestic monopoly and want to keep it).

I don't think E* or similar would anticipate to take any passenger domestically in Switzerland- even if there was an interim Basel call or a split (Bern) - I don't think that is a valid concern here. They don't take anyone between Rotterdam and Amsterdam... would be an absurd idea.

Geneva would come in from France directly.

And indeed I would think that maybe Lille/MLV to Geneva/Basel/Zurich would be new markets, and fair game being international services. They'd have to go through the UKBF security theatre at the respective stations as if they were travelling to the UK, in the France-bound direction - a bit annoying for Schengen, but done in Spain....

 

[Krokodil]

It wouldn’t be accessible to domestic passengers

Probably not, though it's not an impossiblity as they have carried intra-Schengen passengers before.

 

[Trainbike46]

Probably not, though it's not an impossiblity as they have carried intra-Schengen passengers before.

They still do, on Lille->Brussels/Rotterdam/Amsterdam (in that direction only)

They probably will offer intra-Schengen tickets on Lille/MLV->Switzerland, and they might offer it in the opposite direction though I suspect they won't if demand is sufficient for it to not be worth bothering with

 

[NCT]

Probably not, though it's not an impossiblity as they have carried intra-Schengen passengers before.

Eurostar won't be able to carry intra-Schengen passengers symmetrically (same passenger experience in both directions), so will have to exist outside of the takt without compromising the takt.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Given that both SBB and SNCF already cooperate on Lyria services, would it be possible to run a joint Eurostar-Lyria service? With judicious use of movable platform barriers and two high speed sets coupled together you could easily keep Schengen and UK passengers separated and couple/uncouple at MLV or Lille Europe. I note that the TGV M / Celestia / Avelia Horizon / whatever stupid name it gets called next is compatible with all the relevant power and signalling systems to be able to run such a service out of the box.

 

[Krokodil]

Eurostar won't be able to carry intra-Schengen passengers symmetrically (same passenger experience in both directions)

Assuming that Zurich and Basel aren't going to be getting border controls then there's going to have to be a shuffle at one of the existing frontier stations in France so no reason that it couldn't be treated as a domestic train until then.

 

[Austriantrain]

Assuming that Zurich and Basel aren't going to be getting border controls then there's going to have to be a shuffle at one of the existing frontier stations in France so no reason that it couldn't be treated as a domestic train until then.

A shuffle would be extremely unattractive though and probably lose you a significant amount of UK demand, especially at the prices that would still need to be charged.

 

[quantinghome]

I could see it being interesting. Basel does have a good amount of business - more understated than Geneva or Zurich but a lot of pharma, finance, art/luxury too - and it has a large catchment being such a hub. Geneva I would probably have routed differently.

And Zurich is the largest Swiss market and business place - but lacks the tourism / skiing demand of Geneva.

You'd probably do:
London - non-stop Marne la Vallee (split) - front set to Basel and Zurich, back set to Geneva non-stop... reinstating Disney / outer Paris parkway service in the process. Twice a day each way, to start.

I would hope that a Basel service would be routed via Strasbourg. As well as the city itself, it would provide a lot of useful connections.

 

[Krokodil]

A shuffle would be extremely unattractive though and probably lose you a significant amount of UK demand, especially at the prices that would still need to be charged.

At least to begin with it may well be necessary as it was when the Amsterdam services started.

Even without one it's not impossible to carry intra-Schengen passengers on UK-bound trains, they've done that before too.

 

[NCT]

Even without one it's not impossible to carry intra-Schengen passengers on UK-bound trains, they've done that before too.

When was the last time this was done and what were the measures to stop Schengen passengers from being overcarried? Thanks.

 

[zwk500]

When was the last time this was done and what were the measures to stop Schengen passengers from being overcarried? Thanks.

The Lille Loophole - Brussels to London trains carried Brussels to Lille passsengers in a specially reserved car, AIUI with security on board.

 

[NCT]

The Lille Loophole - Brussels to London trains carried Brussels to Lille passsengers in a specially reserved car, AIUI with security on board.

Can such an arrangement work within Switzerland? When open boarding and unobstructed station access are key components to the takt working.

 

[zwk500]

Can such an arrangement work within Switzerland? When open boarding and unobstructed station access are key components to the takt working.

In theory, you could put out tensa barriers or similar, which I believe they did at Rotterdam and Amsterdam for a while.

 

[Trainbike46]

When was the last time this was done and what were the measures to stop Schengen passengers from being overcarried? Thanks.

It was on London-bound Eurostar blue services from Amsterdam, they were in a separate area of the train, and this area was security checked before Brussels->London passengers were allowed to board.

This was discontinued for multiple reasons, including:
-improved reliability
-potential for improved journey time
-it's less worth it now that security can handle way more Amsterdam-London passengers from Amsterdam (650 instead of 275).

This system could potentially be easier to apply on Switzerland-London services, as they'll likely use the new 200m Eurostar trains, where you could decouple the non London part at MLV, so no border/security issue at all.

 

[cle]

This system could potentially be easier to apply on Switzerland-London services, as they'll likely use the new 200m Eurostar trains, where you could decouple the non London part at MLV, so no border/security issue at all.

This was my thinking - or a split service there. I would think Zurich/Basel/Geneva to MLV might have some demand and interest too - perhaps those places would prefer a CDG stop.

The solution is that Schengen journeys are processed the same as London ones - passports, security, same restricted entrance, boarding 30 mins before etc - they're just getting off earlier. And maybe passport only, and no ID cards to be extra sure. Bit of a faff for them of course, but as I mentioned, this is done in Spain.

 

[zwk500]

This system could potentially be easier to apply on Switzerland-London services, as they'll likely use the new 200m Eurostar trains, where you could decouple the non London part at MLV, so no border/security issue at all.

Given the costs involved in operating a train through the tunnel and on HS1, no operator will want to operate only 200m-long sets through to London. So unless your 200m set from Switzerland is coupling to another 200m set at MLV or Lille, I can't see this happening.

The solution is that Schengen journeys are processed the same as London ones - passports, security, same restricted entrance, boarding 30 mins before etc - they're just getting off earlier. And maybe passport only, and no ID cards to be extra sure. Bit of a faff for them of course, but as I mentioned, this is done in Spain.

The Lille Loophole came about because of the insistence (I think primarily from the Belgian government) on the right of citizens to travel freely within the Schengen zone without needing any passports.

Given ID cards are mandatory to carry in many EU states, you could potentially get away with requiring them go through the bag check and to present photo ID. But even then you'd put a lot of people off as they may as well just plan their journey around one without any such issues. Or, if they're being sent through security anyway, fly.

 

[HSTEd]

Given the costs involved in operating a train through the tunnel and on HS1, no operator will want to operate only 200m-long sets through to London. So unless your 200m set from Switzerland is coupling to another 200m set at MLV or Lille, I can't see this happening.

You'd probably want a six hundred metre+ platform for that sort of operation, and I don't think one exists in a reasonable location.

 

[zwk500]

You'd probably want a six hundred metre+ platform for that sort of operation, and I don't think one exists in a reasonable location.

Either that or an extended dwell while you shunt one portion off and the other portion on (whichever way round you do it). However I personally can't see anybody wanting to faff about with half a train being extra-schengen and half a train being intra-schengen.

 

[Zomboid]

Do the set swapping between MLV and CDG stations. Or have 200m from Switzerland and 200m from Frankfurt and join them together at Lille.

 

[Sorcerer]

I expect any joining and splitting of services might be split between France and Switzerland rather than Germany unless Deutsche Bahn also gets in on the agreement. If dealing with double 200m long sets what are the chances of one half detaching and terminate at Marne-le-Vallee and the other continuing to Basel, Geneva or Zurich? Or perhaps splitting it there and sending a train in each direction one after the other?

 

[cle]

I expect any joining and splitting of services might be split between France and Switzerland rather than Germany unless Deutsche Bahn also gets in on the agreement. If dealing with double 200m long sets what are the chances of one half detaching and terminate at Marne-le-Vallee and the other continuing to Basel, Geneva or Zurich? Or perhaps splitting it there and sending a train in each direction one after the other?

The latter is what I think. It could also be Bordeaux / SoF split - one day. And again, mop up some of the Disney demand.

The Lille Loophole came about because of the insistence (I think primarily from the Belgian government) on the right of citizens to travel freely within the Schengen zone without needing any passports.

Given ID cards are mandatory to carry in many EU states, you could potentially get away with requiring them go through the bag check and to present photo ID. But even then you'd put a lot of people off as they may as well just plan their journey around one without any such issues. Or, if they're being sent through security anyway, fly.

I think the only way is to be more strict - people are scrutinized to the same level as if they were travelling to the UK. This train is a choice (and privatized - ish) - they can also choose to fly, or to take intra-Schengen trains and change in Paris / wherever.