West Midlands Trains "Destination Manchester" - will it happen?

[Topological]

Good news/bad news about Mayfield then - it's an area that needed regeneration but it's sad to lose what could (should?) have been an important extension to Piccadilly. Could it have been a terminus for tram/trains that could possibly have been the Hadfield/Glossop/Rose Hill lines? Ah, well, just hope the pub's still there!!

Piccadilly is (well hopefully is) being extended on the other side and then there will be plenty of space in the main shed. Without any new approach lines there is very little benefit to extending the number of terminating platforms. The only other extension that should be done is the 14/15 island on the Castlefield line.

This talk of platform capacity at Piccadilly may push the thread too far from the new service. The relevance of this discussion remains that bringing the Manchester Airport - Birmingham train into Piccadilly may need additional platform space. Even then, the current Northern service comes into Piccadilly so direct replacement would just take over that path.

 

[lowe1409]

Always thought it would be better to run distinct shuttle services between Piccadilly (re-use Mayfield St!)

How would that benefit passengers wishing to travel south? Its one thing expecting all passengers going north to change in Manchester but given the scope of he thread, I'm assuming you feel the lnwr proposal should be scrapped in favour of said shuttle. it feels absurd that passengers should be expected to add an additional 40 or so minutes onto any journey further south than Stockport.

 

[mmh]

1h15 is absolutely abysmal, granted, but where rail will always stand out is cost. Paying a couple quid in a taxi to the local station or walking plus a train fare will absolutely be cheaper than parking if traveling for more than a couple days. It's one of the few places where the train is hands down without a question cheaper than driving. That's then not including the fact the cheaper car parks, at least at Manchester, all included a bus transfer making that 20 minutes maybe closer to 40 or 50 by the time you reach a terminal, especially at peak seasons.

Ashton-under-Lyne to Manchester Airport is never going to be attractive by train. It's probably a perfect example of somewhere where you'd instinctively take a taxi (all the way, not to a railway station) or get a lift. I can't imagine many people considering airport parking for it over a taxi - why would you?

 

[Topological]

Ashton-under-Lyne to Manchester Airport is never going to be attractive by train. It's probably a perfect example of somewhere where you'd instinctively take a taxi (all the way, not to a railway station) or get a lift. I can't imagine many people considering airport parking for it over a taxi - why would you?

If there was ever a Metrolink outer ring it might make sense for more cost sensitive Ashton passengers, but you are right that no one is looking at the train for the journey from Ashton to the Airport. Maybe an Ordsall Chord service would take some passengers, but again it would not be quick compared to a taxi.

This is all very off topic from the fact that this new service means Manchester Airport is better connected to the South West.

 

[lowe1409]

This is all very off topic from the fact that this new service means Manchester Airport is better connected to the South West.

Well not just the south west. Depending on connections offered, could improve the journey times towards south/mid Wales, east midlands, and certainly will the south east.

 

[RealTrains07]

Well not just the south west. Depending on connections offered, could improve the journey times towards south/mid Wales, east midlands, and certainly will the south east.

People living near stations along the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury line may benefit as it (depending on timetabling) would be an easy change at wolverhampton to get to the airport.

Shrewsbury however less so since TfW already provide good links with manchester

 

[Topological]

People living near stations along the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury line may benefit as it (depending on timetabling) would be an easy change at wolverhampton to get to the airport.

Shrewsbury however less so since TfW already provide good links with manchester

Yes.

My position on most lines is that it is replacing Crewe - Airport with a new Crewe - Airport and so the choice of change at Wilmslow, or continue to Piccadilly applies just as it does now.

 

[lowe1409]

People living near stations along the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury line may benefit as it (depending on timetabling) would be an easy change at wolverhampton to get to the airport.

Shrewsbury however less so since TfW already provide good links with manchester

The issue is the timing. Journey planners currently route you via Piccadilly as the connection is off the xx.04 tpe, technically 3 minutes quicker then the xx.01 Crewe despite changing at Crewe involving overall quieter services and better reliability and changing at Wilmslow is a significantly easier conection, especially with luggage.

(I have no idea however what the connections are going to the airport from Shrewsbury)

 

[Rail Ranger]

If (as seems likely) the existing Crewe-Manchester Airport service largely transfers to WMT it will make a mess of the existing LNR/Northern through ticketing between Piccadilly and Euston using Northern to and from Crewe and LNR between Crewe and Euston. On the Euston-Manchester leg the connection out of the LNR Euston to Crewe service is into the Northern Crewe-Airport-Piccadilly service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If (as seems likely) the existing Crewe-Manchester Airport service largely transfers to WMT it will make a mess of the existing LNR/Northern through ticketing between Piccadilly and Euston using Northern to and from Crewe and LNR between Crewe and Euston. On the Euston-Manchester leg the connection out of the LNR Euston to Crewe service is into the Northern Crewe-Airport-Piccadilly service.

Will that be a matter that will be taken into consideration prior to the decision being made in June?

 

[Topological]

I assume, given the new train is in the slot of the old Northern train, that the cheap London-Manchester will still be on this service, but will now have 2 changes (Crewe and Airport). I do not know what the southbound option is, but it will either be Northern as now, or be 2 changes via the Airport.

It should also be remembered that soon we will be under GBR and it will be up to GBR whether they want to have these cheaper, TOC specific, tickets. There are many threads on here about the options open to GBR when there is no way to distinguish the LNR service from the Avanti.

 

[Bald Rick]

If (as seems likely) the existing Crewe-Manchester Airport service largely transfers to WMT it will make a mess of the existing LNR/Northern through ticketing between Piccadilly and Euston using Northern to and from Crewe and LNR between Crewe and Euston. On the Euston-Manchester leg the connection out of the LNR Euston to Crewe service is into the Northern Crewe-Airport-Piccadilly service.

If this happens, the Northern service doesn’t transfer to WMT. The Northern service is curtailed to be a Piccadilly - Airport, whilst the WMT is extended from Crewe to the Airport but with a different calling pattern and different timings.

 

[Rail Ranger]

The calling pattern and timings are yet to be announced but will the WMT service not effectively use the same path as the existing Northern service between Crewe and Manchester Airport? Given that the paths of other services between Crewe and Wilmslow are not changing.

 

[Bald Rick]

The calling pattern and timings are yet to be announced but will the WMT service not effectively use the same path as the existing Northern service between Crewe and Manchester Airport? Given that the paths of other services between Crewe and Wilmslow are not changing.

Similar path, but not the same, and different calling patterns.

 

[Rail Ranger]

So it sounds like some stations which are served by the existing Northern service will be disadvantaged.

 

[lowe1409]

If (as seems likely) the existing Crewe-Manchester Airport service largely transfers to WMT it will make a mess of the existing LNR/Northern through ticketing between Piccadilly and Euston using Northern to and from Crewe and LNR between Crewe and Euston. On the Euston-Manchester leg the connection out of the LNR Euston to Crewe service is into the Northern Crewe-Airport-Piccadilly service.

It wouldn't be too bad having to wait at Crewe for the via Stockport service however. I think there's only about a 10 minutes difference between arrival times at picc due to the airport adding 20 minutes to the service

 

[SeanM1997]

Destination Manchester

Read about out exciting plans to begin serving Greater Manchester from 2027.

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

New Birmingham New Street - Manchester Airport services launching in May 2027.

We are pleased to confirm that our proposed new train service linking Birmingham New St with Manchester Airport will be launched in May 2027, in time for the summer holiday season.

The new service will be introduced in two phases to help ensure operational robustness. Phase 1 will see our existing Crewe – Stoke – Stafford service extended to & from Birmingham New St from December 2026. Phase 2 will then see this service extended further to & from Manchester Airport, in May 2027.

In headline terms, the new service will deliver:

• Direct train services between the West Midlands & Manchester Airport.
• New rail connectivity to the south of the airport – current services only operate as far as Crewe.
• Later evening trains between Crewe and the airport, with new last trains at circa 22:00 vs 20:00 today.
• Enhanced Sunday frequency between Crewe and the airport, with 1 train every hour vs of 1 train per 2 hours today.
• Hundreds of new one stop rail connections across the Midlands for airport travellers, via Birmingham & Stoke On Trent.
• An additional train each hour between Stafford & Birmingham
• Improved frequency of trains at new stations in the Black Country.

We believe that the new direct train service will offer an attractive and affordable alternative to travelling by private car, as well as offer greater simplicity and comfort vs road or multi-mode public transport options.

What stations will the new service call at?​

From December 2026, the service will operate between Birmingham New St, Tame Bridge Parkway, Darlaston, Willenhall, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stone, Stoke-on-Trent, Longport, Kidsgrove, Alsager & Crewe (both directions).

From May 2027, the service will go on to call at Sandbach, Holmes Chapel, Wilmslow, Styal & Manchester Airport (both directions).

What happens next?​

We will continue to work with Network Rail and fellow train operators as we move towards launching the service. Final timetables will be available and visible in journey planners in late September for the December changes, and February for the May changes.

Tickets will be available for sale approximately 12 weeks ahead of travel.

Identifying opportunities for future growth in Greater Manchester​

As a progressive rail operator and part of the publicly owned railway, we’re committed to continue looking for new opportunities to develop new services and connectivity to help provide a better travelling experience for both our current and potential new customers. We are ambitious in this area and our team continually seek innovative solutions to create new journey opportunities.

We recognise that improving connectivity between Greater Manchester and destinations on our existing network could deliver sustainable growth which in turn could help fund investments in the wider railway network.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Presumably passengers from Styal to Manchester Piccadilly will have to change at Manchester Airport from May 2027.

 

[jfollows]

Presumably passengers from Styal to Manchester Piccadilly will have to change at Manchester Airport from May 2027.

Or at Wilmslow, it's a permitted route.

 

[SeanM1997]

Looks like Alderley Edge will not be served

Still unclear if Northern's Crewe - Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly will continue or cut

If cut, will there be an alternative for Sandbach and Holmes Chapel to get to Manchester (as direct services would be halved), or Alderley Edge to have a second train an hour to Crewe? This could reduce connectivity and patronage given traffic flows

2024/25 Flows potentially impacted:
Sandbach - Manchester Piccadilly - 50,364 passengers
Holmes Chapel - Manchester Piccadilly - 38,081 passengers
Alderley Edge - Manchester Airport - 5,360 passengers
Alderley Edge - Crewe - 4,503 passengers
Alderley Edge - Sandbach - 3,989 passengers
Alderley Edge - Holmes Chapel - 3,853 passengers
East Didsbury - Wilmslow - 2,997 passengers
Styal - Manchester Piccadilly - 2,858 passengers
Heald Green - Wilmslow - 2,276 passengers

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If cut, will there be an alternative for Sandbach and Holmes Chapel to get to Manchester (as direct services would be halved),

It is already about 15 minutes quicker to change at Wilmslow for the TfW service to Manchester than stay on the stopper via Styal.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is already about 15 minutes quicker to change at Wilmslow for the TfW service to Manchester than stay on the stopper via Styal.

Are the tickets issued by Northern accepted by other TOC in cases such as this?

 

[jfollows]

Are the tickets issued by Northern accepted by other TOC in cases such as this?

As long as it's not a Northern Advance ticket for a specific train. Otherwise they are priced by Northern but "any permitted" and not operator specific.

 

[Starmill]

Still unclear if Northern's Crewe - Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly will continue or cut

It is clear. It won't be continuing, as it can't be accomodated. I would expect to see a small handful of odd services between Wilmslow and Manchester Airport though in order to secure route refreshes for Manchester Piccadilly crew, some of which may carry passengers.

If cut, will there be an alternative for Sandbach and Holmes Chapel to get to Manchester (as direct services would be halved), or Alderley Edge to have a second train an hour to Crewe?

No.

Ironically Stone and Kidsgrove etc. will gain a direct Manchester Airport service, while Alderley Edge will lose it.

Personally I reckon the gains from Staffordshire stations to Manchester Airport aren't worth the losses you note, when viewed alongside network performance and the new slots between Wilmslow and Crewe being slightly poorer and the turnaround times slightly worse. The new service will regularly be turned around at Wilmslow or Crewe as it has a number of single lines and flat junctions to traverse, and it will be very difficult to get it through Crewe if it doesn't present right time. The current service is almost never turned around short.

West Midlands Trains reckon they have enough crew to run the service consistently on Sundays, which Northern haven't for several years and are very unlikely to again soon. We can only hope that they actually do.

 

[Russel]

Wonder if this could be a cheaper way to get between Birmingham and Manchester rather than XC?

Longer route, admittedly...

 

[occone]

Just thinking this will be a new way to avoid XC but I imagine given the sheer number of stops to Wolverhampton it'll take a fair amount more time.

This may however improve congestion from people commuting between Birmingham and Wolverhampton on what is an intercity service by taking a more local train.

Hopefully season tickets will be available cheaper for the local service to prevent people taking XC and leaving space for those traveling across the country

 

[VT 390]

This may however improve congestion from people commuting between Birmingham and Wolverhampton on what is an intercity service by taking a more local train.

Hopefully season tickets will be available cheaper for the local service to prevent people taking XC and leaving space for those traveling across the country

If the timings for the December 2026 timetable are kept it looks like from Birmingham to Crewe a Cross Country will overtake it between Birmingham and Wolverhampton and from Crewe to Birmingham a Liverpool to Birmingham overtakes it. So I doubt many people would choose the new service between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, unless additional incentives (like cheaper fares) are offered.

 

[Starmill]

When West Midlands Trains ran this service previously it was easy to get lots of cheap tickets on fairly fast trains Stoke-on-Trent <> Wolverhampton / Birmingham New Street. So from that limited perspective it would likely add the capacity back, yes. Other cheap tickets can then be bought for connections from Stoke-on-Trent, Trainsplit will find these.

Running the Crewe <> Stafford stopping service through via Wolverhampton again could easily be offered without any changes to the Northern service though, as a continuation of the current arrangement using platform 2 at Crewe.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

West Midlands Trains reckon they have enough crew to run the service consistently on Sundays, which Northern haven't for several years and are very unlikely to again soon. We can only hope that they actually do.

Given that Crewe is over-compliment in anticipation of this work, and that Wolverhampton will also sign at least to Crewe, staffing will not be a problem.

Even less so on Sundays, there is almost never an open turn - unless the drivers pay deal gets pulled of course.

Be interesting to see how the pathing at Stafford is, as the current service is regularly held for later running through services which could have dire consequences. I would, however, imagine the company would prefer to terminate at Stafford or Wolves southbound than not serve the airport as this is classes as additional services south of Stafford with plenty of WMT alternatives.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Destination Manchester

Read about out exciting plans to begin serving Greater Manchester from 2027.

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

Has Northern Trains issued any formal response to that, stating how their services will be affected?