West Midlands Trains "Destination Manchester" - will it happen?

[Magdalia]

Manchester Airport should be the second airport after Heathrow.

Manchester is the third busiest UK airport by passenger numbers, after Heathrow and Gatwick and just ahead of Stansted.

Manchester has more than twice as many passengers as Birmingham and about twice as many flights.

Are there any proposals in the "aspirational box" to cease the Birmingham to Stansted Airport service once the Birmingham to Manchester Airport becomes operational?

Stansted Airport is an extension of a Cambridge service. It is pretty obvious that Birmingham and Cambridge should be connected. Or do we start cutting services to random cities too because Birmingham has a service to Gloucester?

Like many long distance cross country services, the existence of Birmingham-Cambridge-Stansted as a through service is a historical accident of privatisation. It isn't obvious that Birmingham and Cambridge should be connected: Cambridge doesn't have direct trains to Manchester, Leeds or Nottingham.

But it is obvious that Birmingham and Manchester should be better connected, they are the two biggest cities in England outside of London. I don't know enough to form a judgement on whether this proposal is the right answer, but I'm pleased to see that people are thinking about it.

 

[Topological]

Manchester is the third busiest UK airport by passenger numbers, after Heathrow and Gatwick and just ahead of Stansted.

Manchester has more than twice as many passengers as Birmingham and about twice as many flights.




Like many long distance cross country services, the existence of Birmingham-Cambridge-Stansted as a through service is a historical accident of privatisation. It isn't obvious that Birmingham and Cambridge should be connected: Cambridge doesn't have direct trains to Manchester, Leeds or Nottingham.

But it is obvious that Birmingham and Manchester should be better connected, they are the two biggest cities in England outside of London. I don't know enough to form a judgement on whether this proposal is the right answer, but I'm pleased to see that people are thinking about it.

The Gatwick figures are mostly because Heathrow is constrained and BA (amongst others) end up with long haul operations at Gatwick as well. However, it is pretty obvious that Manchester will be the biggest non-London airport.

Even if you swap things around, or do some splitting, you have Manchester - Norwich and Birmingham - Cambridge sharing track between Peterborough and Ely. If it were Manchester - Cambridge and Birmingham - Norwich as the pairs then the position would still be the same.

If they could just get HS2 built then that would sort out the Manchester Airport access issue once and for all, but that keeps getting pushed back.

 

[lowe1409]

I don’t think it can really be sold as a replacement, as the 350s can’t keep to timings so it drops stops compared to the Northern service, AIUI from the Northern planners earlier post on here.

Would that affect this service so much? I know it was a problem for Glossop whcih is a much slower metro service where stopping times matter much more. This is a much longer service, with fewer stops, and even some 110mph running to compensate for longer dwells Vs a 323s 90mph top speed.

Who knows whether this will be a good idea. The Airport will have some sense of their passenger origins and could have data supporting a service. There has also been a growing recognition of changing economic geographies.

I think national express should be a good indicator. Afaik, the coach provision southwards is significantly better than provision to Yorkshire and the north west. Surely this indicates an underserved market for rail?

 

[RealTrains07]

One consequence would be a further reduction in cross-boundary public transport connectivity between East Cheshire and Greater Manchester, which is already poor.

IMO, it would be better just to extend the existing Northern service from Manchester via Styal to Stoke, and add an hourly stop at Stone to the Birmingham-Stoke-Macclesfield-Manchester service.

As mentioned in other threads when the topic of Stone station has come up.

It cannot fit any train longer than a 4 coach 350 due to a) the signal position on platform 2 and b) the risk of trains on platform 1 blocking the junction that links up with the fast line used by avanti, its completely impractical.

Yes, Stone does need a train service that goes beyond stafford but not one that is run by XC.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There once was talk made of Calder Valley line stations (in the Transpennine belt) having a direct service to Manchester Airport. Whatever happened to that aspiration?

 

[Topological]

There once was talk made of Calder Valley line stations (in the Transpennine belt) having a direct service to Manchester Airport. Whatever happened to that aspiration?

Timetabling issues with the Ordsall Chord.

Still hoped for, but difficult with the current service through Castlefield. Should the Liverpool - Manchester line be built then I expect there will be trains from the Airport to the Calder Valley.

 

[lowe1409]

There once was talk made of Calder Valley line stations (in the Transpennine belt) having a direct service to Manchester Airport. Whatever happened to that aspiration?

Technically does happen with engineering works and diversions via Calder Valley.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Tfgm have announced they're also taking over to elderly edge as well. Feels weird as it leaves a styal sized hole in the network.

Given Styal only had a Parliamentary service until very recently, and given that Styal isn't in Greater Manchester, I doubt that anyone particularly cares about that.

I mean the Northern service is to be withdrawn. Whether we consider it good enough to be a replacement is more of an opinion, but I do think Manchester is a more likely destination for the intermediates than Brum, so if the Northern service is removed then I'm opposed.

If I've understood this thread correctly, the Crewe-Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly train is the one being replaced, not the Crewe-Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly train.

In reality, most people to/from Sandbach and Holmes Chapel already change at Wilmslow if they're using the Styal line stopper. The down stopper sits at the Airport for 15 minutes and so, even with the change, it's 15 minutes quicker to change at Wilmslow for the TfW express. It's not quite so bad in the up direction as it only sits at the airport for 5 minutes, but even then if you miss the stopper you can still catch it up at Wilmslow off the Avanti.

I'd say direct trains from Stafford and Wolverhampton to the airport will benefit more people.

 

[lowe1409]

Given Styal only had a Parliamentary service until very recently, and given that Styal isn't in Greater Manchester, I doubt that anyone particularly cares about that.

However, the problem it leaves is there is a gap where PAYG (Which as I understand bee network want to introduce for its services) will exist but not be valid between Wilmslow and the airport due to the omission of Styal. Sure it may exist more or less entirely outside of GM but surely would this not have been a a consideration? If it is true that the whole reason the service is being split is to benefit TFGM, then will it not create problems for people who travel between 'bee network' stations in Cheshire east and 'bee network' stations on the Styal line who's best route would still be via the Airport. Despite being outside of GM, I'm sure stories will spread of people either being fined for traveling between bee network stations on payg or people being overcharged for traveling via Piccadilly.

 

[mmh]

The Gatwick figures are mostly because Heathrow is constrained and BA (amongst others) end up with long haul operations at Gatwick as well. However, it is pretty obvious that Manchester will be the biggest non-London airport.

Indeed. Manchester has a huge catchment area where it is the "local" airport, probably bigger than any other in Britain.

Gatwick is also better located for a large chunk of the south east than Heathrow or any of the north "London" airports.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Given Styal only had a Parliamentary service until very recently, and given that Styal isn't in Greater Manchester, I doubt that anyone particularly cares about that.

Two notable places in Styal are the prison for female offenders and the large area covered by the National Trust Quarry Bank Mill and village.

 

[lowe1409]

Indeed. Manchester has a huge catchment area where it is the "local" airport, probably bigger than any other in Britain.

Gatwick is also better located for a large chunk of the south east than Heathrow or any of the north "London" airports.

I feel that most people wanting to catch a flight from either Gatwick or Heathrow from outside of the city fly BA domestic. With Manchester that's not the case and hence why it possibly has the broadest rail service of any airport in the country.

 

[mmh]

I feel that most people wanting to catch a flight from either Gatwick or Heathrow from outside of the city fly BA domestic. With Manchester that's not the case and hence why it possibly has the broadest rail service of any airport in the country.

It's not the case for Heathrow or Gatwick either.

 

[lowe1409]

It's not the case for Heathrow or Gatwick either.

What do you mean? BA has a decent sized domestic network for connecting people into its London hubs meaning often it's just people more local who choose to use the airports directly. Manchester doesn't have any such supporting domestic flight network meaning it needs a broader range of ground transport options. Why else do you think that Manchester has the most expensive route network for it's railway station, and what I believe is the most expensive car parking/drop off fees of any UK airport but feel free to correct me on that one.

 

[Topological]

What do you mean? BA has a decent sized domestic network for connecting people into its London hubs meaning often it's just people more local who choose to use the airports directly. Manchester doesn't have any such supporting domestic flight network meaning it needs a broader range of ground transport options. Why else do you think that Manchester has the most expensive route network for it's railway station, and what I believe is the most expensive car parking/drop off fees of any UK airport but feel free to correct me on that one.

I paid more at Bristol than Manchester in April. Both are expensive though.

Most seats leaving Heathrow are not BA and not tied into domestic connections. Indeed, for a long time Emirates used Manchester for domestic connections with Flybe. I do not know if a new arrangement replaced that when Flybe folded as it is a long time since I used Emirates. These days I am on the American carriers or Chinese airlines from Heathrow.

I would strongly suspect that most people arrive at Heathrow by the Elizabeth Line, Piccadilly Line or Heathrow Express. Though driving and shuttle buses will be high. BA domestic flights will be very small in comparison.

 

[jayah]

Have you ever seen the vast acarage of car parks that surround Manchester Airport and its connection to the M56 motorway? Do you honestly expect that people will change their travel habits to any great extent?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2025 ==


There are already development plans on the Cheshire East border afoot near to the new A34 road which will obviate the need for such developments in Styal. Remember Styal suffers from noise pollution from the adjacent Manchester Airport.

Every airport is the same, including Heathrow, although their vast acreage is stacked vertically.

As a general rule, most UK airports that have rail connections, are well connected to their main city centre and most are badly connected to most other places.

Rail actually well suited to airport travel, when done well, and apart from city centre commuting there aren't many markets e.g. Gatwick where rail can claim a 40% surface travel market share - despite Gatwick's terrible connections to anywhere that is not on Thameslink / BML, or the North Downs as far as Guildford.

Manchester is no exception, and the long overdue direct connections to Stoke and Stafford will make a difference. But it will still take 1h15 from Ashton under Lyne to the Airport vs 20mins by car so the parking acreage is going nowhere for the foreseeable.

 

[lowe1409]

Manchester is no exception, and the long overdue direct connections to Stoke and Stafford will make a difference. But it will still take 1h15 from Ashton under Lyne to the Airport vs 20mins by car so the parking acreage is going nowhere for the foreseeable.

1h15 is absolutely abysmal, granted, but where rail will always stand out is cost. Paying a couple quid in a taxi to the local station or walking plus a train fare will absolutely be cheaper than parking if traveling for more than a couple days. It's one of the few places where the train is hands down without a question cheaper than driving. That's then not including the fact the cheaper car parks, at least at Manchester, all included a bus transfer making that 20 minutes maybe closer to 40 or 50 by the time you reach a terminal, especially at peak seasons.

 

[Stossgebet]

I hope the train operator puts in some more large luggage racks or spaces... be a stupid own goal, to target airport passengers, and choose not to accomodate their needs!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope the train operator puts in some more large luggage racks or spaces... be a stupid own goal, to target airport passengers, and choose not to accomodate their needs!

When WMT took on the 350/4s they removed some racks from them and put them in the /1s so all should now have a decent sized rack in at least one coach. In particular the old guard's office on the /1 has been converted to luggage racks. Plus the overheads are huge.

If there is a problem it will as ever be just due to lazy people choosing not to use the facilities provided.

 

[Stossgebet]

When WMT took on the 350/4s they removed some racks from them and put them in the /1s so all should now have a decent sized rack in at least one coach. In particular the old guard's office on the /1 has been converted to luggage racks. Plus the overheads are huge.

If there is a problem it will as ever be just due to lazy people choosing not to use the facilities provided.

I wouldn't be calling people, who may not be regular rail users (or regular users of this particular route and traction) "lazy", if all they have is one large rack in only one of 4 carriages.
Plus, while the overhead rack might be great for carry on luggage, if we are accepting that this airport service has a market of only 2 families having hold luggage per train journey, then either the market isn't there, or it is, and we are going to let it down.

My comment comes from the POV of the industry letting down the latter.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

From what I understand, northern still plan to run early morning/late evening trains. How early/late they are I don't know. Hopefully at least the paths LNWR don't take over will still be run by northern.

Has there been any information put into the public domain by Northern Trains in response to the proposed new LNWR service as this will affect their current service provision on the Styal Line?

 

[The Planner]

Has there been any information put into the public domain by Northern Trains in response to the proposed new LNWR service as this will affect their current service provision on the Styal Line?

No, for the exact same reason as to why LNWR haven't said anything.

 

[jayah]

1h15 is absolutely abysmal, granted, but where rail will always stand out is cost. Paying a couple quid in a taxi to the local station or walking plus a train fare will absolutely be cheaper than parking if traveling for more than a couple days. It's one of the few places where the train is hands down without a question cheaper than driving. That's then not including the fact the cheaper car parks, at least at Manchester, all included a bus transfer making that 20 minutes maybe closer to 40 or 50 by the time you reach a terminal, especially at peak seasons.

Nobody flying anywhere is going to spend anything like 1hr15 travelling that distance by public transport, even if you paid them.

Public transport is all about routes, timetables, networks and infrastructure. The acreage of parking at Manchester Airport is going nowhere until there is a generational change in the public transport offering.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No, for the exact same reason as to why LNWR haven't said anything.

From what had been mentioned in the earlier postings of this thread, which seemed to cite LNWR's view on the matter, can you really say that about it.

If no LNWR information had ever been made public, there would have been nothing to set this thread up for.

 

[The Planner]

From what had been mentioned in the earlier postings of this thread, which seemed to cite LNWR's view on the matter, can you really say that about it.

If no LNWR information had ever been made public, there would have been nothing to set this thread up for.

Yes. Nothing is going to be released officially until there is some sort of sign off amd the timetable is secure. The reason this thread, and multiple similar ones on a myriad of subjects, is continuing is because rightly or wrongly people closer to it are contributing.

 

[lowe1409]

Has there been any information put into the public domain by Northern Trains in response to the proposed new LNWR service as this will affect their current service provision on the Styal Line?

Not that I know of. What I know from northern is what I've heard from a couple northern guards. Im not sure if they've had any internal communications on it.

From what had been mentioned in the earlier postings of this thread, which seemed to cite LNWR's view on the matter, can you really say that about it.

If no LNWR information had ever been made public, there would have been nothing to set this thread up for.

All as what lnwr have confirmed is that they want to run a service in December 26 to the airport from Birmingham and that this involves utilising the northern path. Everything else is speculation, and what has been discussed internally whether it be official or rumour. I doubt we will know anything concrete untill we see it confirmed on RTT for the new timetable change

 

[Howardh]

I hope the train operator puts in some more large luggage racks or spaces... be a stupid own goal, to target airport passengers, and choose not to accomodate their needs!

Always thought it would be better to run distinct shuttle services between Piccadilly (re-use Mayfield St!) and the Airport using trains that can easily cope with luggage. But then again most trains going anywhere have that problem, on Avanti's I've seen corridors blocked with luggage. Remove seats for more luggage is the obvious one, but that means more standing passengers and those seats don't bring in revenue.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Always thought it would be better to run distinct shuttle services between Piccadilly (re-use Mayfield St!)

Mayfield railway station is situated within the redevelopment of that land area and I wonder if there has any mention ever made as to what new role it could fulfil in that redevelopment.

 

[Topological]

Mayfield railway station is situated within the redevelopment of that land area and I wonder if there has any mention ever made as to what new role it could fulfil in that redevelopment.

Completely obliterated.

Image showing "Mayfield Depot" as the new buildings on the original Mayfield platform sites.

London-based developer U+I has been confirmed as the winner of the £850m development contest to revive the 24-acre Mayfield area on the edge of Manchester city centre.

Mayfield Partnership, comprising London & Continental Railways, Manchester City Council and Transport for Greater Manchester, advised by JLL, confirmed “U+I was selected from a shortlist of three strong bidders which also included Urban & Civic and a consortium formed by Carillion, Ask and Patrizia.”

The partnership said: “There was firm consensus amongst the partnership that U+I’s bid successfully captured the vision for the site, set out in the Mayfield Strategic Regeneration Framework, for Mayfield to become a distinctive new high quality urban neighbourhood and a gateway into Manchester city centre.”

U+I has appointed Studio Egret West as the lead urban designer, architect and landscape architect for the Mayfield Project. U+I worked with the same studio on the Old Vinyl Factory, Clapham One, Caxton Works and Preston Barracks in Brighton. A variety of other designers will join the team as the project evolves, the developer said.

The site, once home to the Mayfield railway station, has been derelict for over a decade and the regeneration will breathe new life into what was once a thriving city district.

U+I plans to save the station building and retain other heritage assets in the area.

The Mayfield site will provide 1,300 homes, 800,000 sq ft of office space, a 350-bedroom hotel, retail and leisure facilities and a new city park in total creating over 7,500 office, retail, leisure and construction jobs. It will reshape and extend the city towards Manchester Piccadilly; building on the benefits of the Northern Hub, Network Rail’s programme of targeted upgrades to improve rail connectivity in the north of England; and act as a catalyst for the regeneration of the wider Piccadilly area.

Quotes are from Place North West article: https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/ui-mayfield-victory-confirmed/

 

[Howardh]

Good news/bad news about Mayfield then - it's an area that needed regeneration but it's sad to lose what could (should?) have been an important extension to Piccadilly. Could it have been a terminus for tram/trains that could possibly have been the Hadfield/Glossop/Rose Hill lines? Ah, well, just hope the pub's still there!!