Staff discretion to open doors at unscheduled station stops

[Bletchleyite]

Does such a strict requirement like involving control actually make sense under the rulebook? Our swiss rulebook also sets out responsibilities, which means that while it is certainly possible to make a request to control, responsibility remains with the onboard crew. Even if control approves an action, the onboard crew remains responsible for the consequences.

People opening them stops the aircon working as it then has to heat the outside world rather than just inside the train.

 

[Haywain]

People opening them stops the aircon working as it then has to heat the outside world rather than just inside the train.

And, on warmer days, what you get in through the windows is moving air rather than cooler air which might feel more pleasant until the train stops.

 

[webbfan]

Can't help wondering if people are less tolerant than we used to be say 30 years ago. During some summers it used to be really hot, no windows inside carriage would open, just the small one in the door (no use opening that one as internal coach door would stop any air flow) and air con would fail but we didn't bother other than mention it to guard - who would agree and move on. We never considered fainting, egress - well couldn't as train doing 100 mph.

Then of course Northern line underground during rush hours would prepare you for standing room sauna.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't help wondering if people are less tolerant than we used to be say 30 years ago. During some summers it used to be really hot, no windows inside carriage would open, just the small one in the door (no use opening that one as internal coach door would stop any air flow) and air con would fail but we didn't bother other than mention it to guard - who would agree and move on. We never considered fainting, egress - well couldn't as train doing 100 mph.

Then of course Northern line underground during rush hours would prepare you for standing room sauna.

Aside from the 4-DD this isn't true. All non-aircon coaches bar these on the mainline had opening windows.

You're probably thinking of the ubiquitous Mk2 with broken aircon. And that was bad then and is bad now - even more so with a bit of climate change.

 

[The exile]

There is provision for this situation in the Rule Book. You can open gangway doors, both internal and external, to allow airflow, plus you can open a set of local doors, as long as you appoint a competent person to act as a door guard,and tape off the doors at shoulder and knee height.

By which time the person is in full panic attack….

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2026 ==

Aside from the 4-DD this isn't true. All non-aircon coaches bar these on the mainline had opening windows.

You're probably thinking of the ubiquitous Mk2 with broken aircon. And that was bad then and is bad now - even more so with a bit of climate change.

158s with faulty aircon were already around 30 years ago (and still with people smoking in part of them - or was that consigned to history by 1996?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

158s with faulty aircon were already around 30 years ago (and still with people smoking in part of them - or was that consigned to history by 1996?)

158s have opening windows in the saloon (though the staff have to open them). The poster was talking about coaches with sealed windows and no aircon at all (not even bad or non-functional aircon), which don't exist and didn't exist apart from the 4-DD stock.

 

[Krokodil]

158s have opening windows in the saloon (though the staff have to open them). The poster was talking about coaches with sealed windows and no aircon at all (not even bad or non-functional aircon), which don't exist and didn't exist apart from the 4-DD stock.

I'm pretty sure that they were referring to hauled stock (or HST trailers) in the event of a failure).

 

[webbfan]

Was talking about mainline coaches. Had air con but occasionally faulty or couldn't cope. we didn't carry water either - flask of hot coffee.

 

[Russel]

I am currently sitting on a questionably hot Avanti Evero with what feels like nonexistent air con, along with non-functioning PIS. It's quite bad but at least we aren't stuck waiting for an unknown amount of time to pass.

Common problem on Avanti on both Everos and Pendos, I was on the 2031 to Preston on Saturday night, it was absolutely roasting, I've never suffered from travel sickness, but by the time I got off at Lichfield I was feeling decidedly unwell.

But that said, overwhelming heat on Pendolinos isn't uncommon and is one of the reasons I tend to stick with LNWR.

 

[amahy]

A bit controversial maybe, but I wish we'd just stop with locking windows.

It's all well and good not having opening windows on an Azuma with functioning air con, but the number of times I've been stuck on a rammed Sprinter and the windows are there, but locked, is not really ok. The guard can open them sure, but sometimes they struggle to make their way through the train.

I agree. And then there’s the factor of awkward guards that can’t be bothered to open the windows, especially when they have their own nice private compartment with openable windows, also know as the rear cab.

 

[The exile]

158s have opening windows in the saloon (though the staff have to open them).

Am I imagining it - or were they not retro-fitted (to the early ones at least?)

 

[35B]

Am I imagining it - or were they not retro-fitted (to the early ones at least?)

If retro-fitted, it was done quickly - I remember a Highland Main Line journey in August 1991 where they were opened

 

[Haywain]

The poster was talking about coaches with sealed windows and no aircon at all

They weren't:

and air con would fail

 

[The exile]

If retro-fitted, it was done quickly - I remember a Highland Main Line journey in August 1991 where they were opened

Fair enough - I must be thinking about something else.

 

[styles]

Can't help wondering if people are less tolerant than we used to be say 30 years ago. During some summers it used to be really hot, no windows inside carriage would open, just the small one in the door (no use opening that one as internal coach door would stop any air flow) and air con would fail but we didn't bother other than mention it to guard - who would agree and move on. We never considered fainting, egress - well couldn't as train doing 100 mph.

There's a lot to break down there but in short form -

• I'm sure people did faint back then just as they do now
• It isn't purely about heat, but humidity, which gets worse in unventilled but densely-populated spaces
• Climate change
• On the deep tunnel sections of TfL services, the increasing build-up of heat in the tunnel material

 

[The exile]

There's a lot to break down there but in short form -

• I'm sure people did faint back then just as they do now
• It isn't purely about heat, but humidity, which gets worse in unventilled but densely-populated spaces
• Climate change
• On the deep tunnel sections of TfL services, the increasing build-up of heat in the tunnel material

Not to mention that, on average, your train is more likely to be overcrowded today than it was 30 years ago (and the chances of being in a sealed carriage with no way of opening any windows or doors have gone up from “very low” to “pretty likely”)

 

[mmh]

158s with faulty aircon were already around 30 years ago (and still with people smoking in part of them - or was that consigned to history by 1996?)

Almost a decade later - the last smoking sections went in 2005 (GNER was the last TOC to still have them - that year I deliberately went from Glasgow to London via GNER so I could smoke, and for the nostalgia of it. The west coast route had already gone smoke free with the Pendolino and Voyager introduction.)

 

[35B]

There's a lot to break down there but in short form -

• I'm sure people did faint back then just as they do now
• It isn't purely about heat, but humidity, which gets worse in unventilled but densely-populated spaces
• Climate change
• On the deep tunnel sections of TfL services, the increasing build-up of heat in the tunnel material

Just on the fainting, there has also been a change in societal expectations about the risk to individuals. Thirty years ago, it wasn't mentioned and the expectation was that people would tough it out. Now, it's "make sure you've got a bottle of water with you". I cannot believe that this hasn't had some impact on how people respond

 

[cats_five]

<snip>

Then of course Northern line underground during rush hours would prepare you for standing room sauna.

So did the Bakerloo, and probably Piccadilly, Victoria etc.!

 

[Undiscovered]

By which time the person is in full panic attack….

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2026 ==

Then, you follow training. Use the PA to ask for medical assistance from any trained staff on board, then liaise with control/999 for further assistance, if required.

I suppose the next situation would be if the panic attack causes a mass hysteria and stampede....

 

[Tetchytyke]

A bit controversial maybe, but I wish we'd just stop with locking windows.

The 158, the 333, and the various Electrostars all had a small number of hopper windows, locked and only to be used in the event of an air con failure.

They caused problems (especially on the 158) so, hey presto, new trains don’t have them!

 

[styles]

The 158, the 333, and the various Electrostars all had a small number of hopper windows, locked and only to be used in the event of an air con failure.

They caused problems (especially on the 158) so, hey presto, new trains don’t have them!

And hey presto, it's now sweltering when the train is stuck waiting for a passing loop!

 

[DelW]

Just on the fainting, there has also been a change in societal expectations about the risk to individuals. Thirty years ago, it wasn't mentioned and the expectation was that people would tough it out. Now, it's "make sure you've got a bottle of water with you". I cannot believe that this hasn't had some impact on how people respond

One big difference is that thirty years ago, there were no social media sites and barely any general internet access, so events like these would have passed largely unnoticed by anyone other than those on board. There might have been a paragraph in a local paper a week later, or in a railway magazine a month later, but it would have been unlikely to make mainstream TV or radio news bulletins. So there was no-one to make a big song and dance about it then.

 

[RiverDon]

The little windows in the 158s don't actually make much difference when they're open, either when the train is moving or stopped.

 

[styles]

The little windows in the 158s don't actually make much difference when they're open, either when the train is moving or stopped.

In my experience, when stopped, on a packed commuter service, they absolutely do.

They're often more humid and hotter than outside from the moment you board an empty service, let alone halfway through.

 

[RiverDon]

I disagree with that but it's my subjective opinion against yours, so I'll not argue the point.

 

[Krokodil]

One big difference is that thirty years ago, there were no social media sites and barely any general internet access, so events like these would have passed largely unnoticed by anyone other than those on board. There might have been a paragraph in a local paper a week later, or in a railway magazine a month later, but it would have been unlikely to make mainstream TV or radio news bulletins. So there was no-one to make a big song and dance about it then.

I remember this story being in the news:

Girl, 7, 'crushed unconscious' on overcrowded train run by Britain's

A seven-year-old girl was "crushed unconscious" on an overcrowded commuter train run by Britain's worst rail company.

www.standard.co.uk

A seven-year-old girl was "crushed unconscious" on an overcrowded commuter train run by Britain's worst rail company.
Laura Booth, who stands just 3ft tall, began vomiting and passed out in a standing position because she was so tightly wedged between other commuters.

Not sure how a bunch of sports fans and Saturday theatre-goers are "commuters" but that's journalism these days...

 

[saismee]

The little windows in the 158s don't actually make much difference when they're open, either when the train is moving or stopped.

It made all the difference in my experience. I doubt it would help if the air itself is hot and humid, but on an average-temp sunny day, the carriage becomes roasting compared to outside without the windows open.

 

[35B]

It made all the difference in my experience. I doubt it would help if the air itself is hot and humid, but on an average-temp sunny day, the carriage becomes roasting compared to outside without the windows open.

That depends on whether the air-conditioning is working or not. If it is, then opening the windows (even on a 158) will undermine the air conditioning and make the vehicle hotter than it would otherwise be. There's a grey area where the movement of air offsets the absolute temperature, but it's in a limited band and trying to force the air-conditioning to operate in those conditions will just make it fail.

Ultimately, air-conditioning is supposed to operate in a closed environment, and letting outside air in will just make it less effective.

 

[saismee]

That depends on whether the air-conditioning is working or not. If it is, then opening the windows (even on a 158) will undermine the air conditioning and make the vehicle hotter than it would otherwise be. There's a grey area where the movement of air offsets the absolute temperature, but it's in a limited band and trying to force the air-conditioning to operate in those conditions will just make it fail.

Ultimately, air-conditioning is supposed to operate in a closed environment, and letting outside air in will just make it less effective.

I don't think air conditioning was operational. None of those 158s were quite rammed (still some seats available if you wanted to buddy up with a stranger), but they were roasting.