West Midlands Trains "Destination Manchester" - will it happen?

[Rail Ranger]

The benefit of Cross Country serving Liverpool would be through services to the south and/or south west of England without needing to change at Birmingham New Street (or Wolverhampton). Could you explain your second comment so that those of us who don't work in the industry can understand what you mean?

 

[jfollows]

It seems rather strange that Birmingham has a large airport and a railway station that recognises that, should want a rail service to Manchester Airport.

I have used Birmingham airport a couple of times.
If there’s a direct flight to my destination from there, it’s preferable to an indirect flight with a change from Manchester airport.
If there’s a train service, terminating at Wilmslow wouldn’t make sense, it’s sensible to continue to Manchester airport.
It’s not about end-to-end journeys, more about journeys to/from intermediate stations to the airports and vice-versa.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If there’s a train service, terminating at Wilmslow wouldn’t make sense, it’s sensible to continue to Manchester airport.
It’s not about end-to-end journeys, more about journeys to/from intermediate stations to the airports and vice-versa.

Is Wilmslow really a good place to terminate rail services? Why not carry on via Handforth to Manchester Piccadilly (via Stockport) has quite long platforms and leave the railway station at Manchester Airport for locations in the cross-Pennine corridor.

 

[jfollows]

Wilmslow is crammed with TfW terminating services these days.
Of course it’s not a good place to terminate other services, I thought I’d said that originally.

 

[The Planner]

The benefit of Cross Country serving Liverpool would be through services to the south and/or south west of England without needing to change at Birmingham New Street (or Wolverhampton). Could you explain your second comment so that those of us who don't work in the industry can understand what you mean?

You cannot have through services from everywhere to everywhere. Fact of life.

As it stands there is a 13 minute connection off the Bournemouth into a Liverpool. 6 minutes at Wolves if people are not wanting to do that at New St. Same goes for the Bristol, 6 minutes at Wolves or 13 at New St. Southbound there is a 15 minute connection at New St to a Bournemouth, 12 at Wolves or 13 at Stafford which is on the same platform. 12 minutes at Stafford into a Bristol, 17 at Wolves. None of these are excessive.

Decision criteria is part of the Network Code and is a mechanism to help make decisions over capacity questions. Part D is for timetables.

Network Code - Network Rail

The Network Code is a set of contractual rules incorporated into each track access agreement between Network Rail and all train operators

www.networkrail.co.uk

It also helps if you quote or reply, then things don't get missed/ignored.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Birmingham should regard itself as the rail transport hub of the Midlands and with airport services in mind, already has a rail service from Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport which must be a popular airport as services from London run there.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Why is this still in speculative when Manchester Airport is confirmed (even if Victoria's not yet)
Should we have 2 threads, one for the confirmed Airport services and one for the proposed Victoria?

 

[SeanM1997]

Why is this still in speculative when Manchester Airport is confirmed (even if Victoria's not yet)
Should we have 2 threads, one for the confirmed Airport services and one for the proposed Victoria?

There's been no public document which demonstrates West Midlands Railway (WMR) have applied to the Office for Rail & Road (ORR) or Network Rail regarding track access. Additionally, as WMR plan to launch in December 2026 - it is speculation until something more solid appears.

At that point, it would be good to split - as the planned route still has many points of speculation:
- Will the Northern Crewe - Manchester Airport service get cut or will this supplement? If so, how will this impact the other Northern service at Crewe as they swap trains at Crewe?
- Will other services at Crewe need rejigging to allow this service to fit at Crewe?
- Will this replace Shrewsbury - Birmingham or be in addition to? If in addition to, will this mean no Wolverhampton - Walsall service can come forward?
- Will this operate 7 days a week?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

There's been no public document which demonstrates West Midlands Railway (WMR) have applied to the Office for Rail & Road (ORR) or Network Rail regarding track access. Additionally, as WMR plan to launch in December 2026 - it is speculation until something more solid appears.

At that point, it would be good to split - as the planned route still has many points of speculation:
- Will the Northern Crewe - Manchester Airport service get cut or will this supplement? If so, how will this impact the other Northern service at Crewe as they swap trains at Crewe?
- Will other services at Crewe need rejigging to allow this service to fit at Crewe?
- Will this replace Shrewsbury - Birmingham or be in addition to? If in addition to, will this mean no Wolverhampton - Walsall service can come forward?
- Will this operate 7 days a week?

It has been confirmed by multiple people on here, paths are locked in, Instructors/Ops/Reps been over the route many times, training runs start in around 3 weeks time, staff/managers have been recruited to cover this work, agreements regarding depots sharing work has been confirmed. Just because that document isn't in the public domain at this point does not mean this isn't happening.

AFAIK;
- Northern will cease to operate Crewe to MIA. (My understanding)
- Unlikely anything will move to accommodate this paths as the paths are already in (which you will see by end of may as training runs 4-8 runs per day)
- No, this will operate as the 2nd tph for Willenhall/Darlaston
- Wolves/Walsall via Pleck is a future plan.
- Plans internally are all day, over 7 days. Unsure of first/last currently but LLCs have been asked for views on earlier starts/later finishes than currently so possibly pushing for greater service than Northern deliver.

 

[Bald Rick]

paths are locked in

No paths are ‘locked in‘ for any services (nationwide) until mid June. That is when paths are offered from Network Rail to operators.

And nothing is running without access rights.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

No paths are ‘locked in‘ for any services (nationwide) until mid June. That is when paths are offered from Network Rail to operators.

And nothing is running without access rights.

By that, I mean the paths that are available to DIs to operate as of now. Paths which will become the training paths at the end of May.

Which we are told by planning are the same paths that are in the diagrams.

Are we still to believe that no rights have been given for passenger services but have been for staff training etc?

It just seems like there's been a lot of work put in already for something that isn't confirmed. Especially as exec team have explicitly stated it is confirmed.

 

[lowe1409]

AFAIK;
- Northern will cease to operate Crewe to MIA. (My understanding)
- Unlikely anything will move to accommodate this paths as the paths are already in (which you will see by end of may as training runs 4-8 runs per day)
- No, this will operate as the 2nd tph for Willenhall/Darlaston
- Wolves/Walsall via Pleck is a future plan.
- Plans internally are all day, over 7 days. Unsure of first/last currently but LLCs have been asked for views on earlier starts/later finishes than currently so possibly pushing for greater service than Northern deliver.

From what I understand, northern still plan to run early morning/late evening trains. How early/late they are I don't know. Hopefully at least the paths LNWR don't take over will still be run by northern.

By that, I mean the paths that are available to DIs to operate as of now. Paths which will become the training paths at the end of May.

Do you mean the times will be similar to the training paths used at present? If so, the turnaround time at the airport feels awfully tight.

 

[SeanM1997]

Is there any news on the new Manchester Airport - Birmingham New Street service? Is it likely to operate 7 days a week? What services would Northern keep (I assume the 0044 Crewe - Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly)?

Is there any capacity for Northern to extend its Manchester Piccadilly - Alderley Edge service to Crewe to provide a half-hourly service on the core route and to compensate for Sandbach/Holmes Chapel seeing reduced number of trains to Manchester?

 

[jfollows]

Is there any news on the new Manchester Airport - Birmingham New Street service? Is it likely to operate 7 days a week? What services would Northern keep (I assume the 0044 Crewe - Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly)?

Is there any capacity for Northern to extend its Manchester Piccadilly - Alderley Edge service to Crewe to provide a half-hourly service on the core route and to compensate for Sandbach/Holmes Chapel seeing reduced number of trains to Manchester?

I very much doubt it.

There is 1 stopping train an hour, one semi-fast, two fast and one freight service every hour Wilmslow-Crewe.

As things stand, the Alderley Edge terminator is shortly after passed by the Avanti fast. No scope for extending to Crewe.

Sandbach and Holmes Chapel will probably have to change or use the other stopping service.

Winners and losers.

In any case, the current up service isn’t much used as a through service, I see people using the xx.54/55 Avanti from Manchester to Wilmslow and changing there for the Manchester-Airport-Crewe service which left Manchester nearly 20 minutes earlier.

 

[SeanM1997]

Just a shame Crewe goes down to just 3 trains an hour to Manchester Piccadilly - but maybe there are other changes coming. For instance, CrossCountry are operating an additional southbound evening peak service calling at Crewe (in lieu of Stockport) so maybe further changes in the future

At least by being extended from Crewe-Stafford to Birmingham, Stoke will receive a 3rd train an hour to Birmingham, reducing pressure on CrossCountry

Not sure if 6 trains an hour are required between Stafford and Birmingham (1 Avanti, 2 CrossCountry, and 3 LNWR) - but maybe Avanti will drop Stafford again to speed up the existing Scotland - Birmingham service

 

[jfollows]

Cross Country only goes via Crewe to Manchester because the regular path they normally use down in the morning and up in the evening is used instead by the one extra Stoke stopper. I note that the up evening service does not call at either Stockport nor Wilmslow in the new timetable. It used to call at Stockport but not Crewe.

 

[lowe1409]

As things stand, the Alderley Edge terminator is shortly after passed by the Avanti fast. No scope for extending to Crewe.

There's no reason however they couldn't loop it at chelford and northbound, the airport train leaves alderly edge 4 mins after the starter (why makes no sense as surely you'd time it the other way to allow connections?). Either way, there's no reason this couldn't be made to work. However this shouldn't be an issue as I was under the impression that the new lnwr service was also taking over the stops from the northern service

 

[daodao]

I have several questions regarding this proposed service from the West Midlands to Manchester Airport:

• Why will it run via Stoke, given that this will lead to slow journey times from Stafford and the West Midlands?
• Will it be a replacement for the existing Northern service via Styal, and if so, how will this station be served in future?
• Will it run non-stop from Wilmslow to Crewe, and if so, what mitigations are proposed for Alderley Edge, Holmes Chapel and Sandbach, where service frequency would be reduced?

IMO, introduction of this service would be a retrograde step. Rail services to and from Manchester Airport should primarily be to and from places in North-West England, as running unpunctual long-distance trains into this airport station adversely affects Manchester's local rail services; other regions have their own major airports.

 

[lowe1409]

I have several questions regarding this proposed service from the West Midlands to Manchester Airport:

• Why will it run via Stoke, given that this will lead to slow journey times from Stafford and the West Midlands?
• Will it be a replacement for the existing Northern service via Styal, and if so, how will this station be served in future?
• Will it run non-stop from Wilmslow to Crewe, and if so, what mitigations are proposed for Alderley Edge, Holmes Chapel and Sandbach, where service frequency would be reduced?

IMO, introduction of this service would be a retrograde step. Rail services to and from Manchester Airport should primarily be to and from places in North-West England, as running unpunctual long-distance trains into this airport station adversely affects Manchester's local rail services; other regions have their own major airports.

Stoke is a significant market for Manchester airport west midlands is as a whole too, just as it stands most people change at Piccadilly because that's where the connections are advertised and LNWR have confirmed online they'll be serving styal. They also say they want to take over the existing stopping path which suggests they'll keep the same stops.

 

[MalaiseForever]

This is worrying to me as the Northern service from Crewe to the Airport is very reliable and well used. I wouldn't want to be reliant on LNWR traipsing its way around the West Mids and Stoke before getting to the Crewe. I fear this will lead to a massive reduction in reliability. Maybe I will have to get to Wilmslow and then take a taxi to the airport more often...

 

[jfollows]

This is worrying to me as the Northern service from Crewe to the Airport is very reliable and well used. I wouldn't want to be reliant on LNWR traipsing its way around the West Mids and Stoke before getting to the Crewe. I fear this will lead to a massive reduction in reliability. Maybe I will have to get to Wilmslow and then take a taxi to the airport more often...

I agree, but since the 2018 timetable I gave up on taking the train to the airport because of its unreliability, so for me although the reliability will get worse, I’ve already given up.

 

[SeanM1997]

I do wonder how much of LNWR taking over the Crewe-Manchester Airport section is to benefit Bee Network - as Greater Manchester are taking over local services on the Didsbury Line by December 2027. By splitting the Crewe-Airport-Piccadilly service in two, it would be logistically easier for Bee Network to plan its network - even though it would cut through connectivity from Didsbury to Crewe.

This new addition could reduce the amount of people interchanging in Crewe - given the only southern rail route from Manchester Airport is to Crewe - will be interesting how platform capacity will be utilised, especially since Stoke services all terminate at Crewe today, where ample southern terminus platforms are in place.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

This is worrying to me as the Northern service from Crewe to the Airport is very reliable and well used. I wouldn't want to be reliant on LNWR traipsing its way around the West Mids and Stoke before getting to the Crewe. I fear this will lead to a massive reduction in reliability. Maybe I will have to get to Wilmslow and then take a taxi to the airport more often...

Given how highly reliable the via Stoke always is (as far as punctuality) both in its current form, and the old route via Tame Bridge, I don't see this as an issue. Unless timing are very tight that is.

I have several questions regarding this proposed service from the West Midlands to Manchester Airport:

• Why will it run via Stoke, given that this will lead to slow journey times from Stafford and the West Midlands?
• Will it be a replacement for the existing Northern service via Styal, and if so, how will this station be served in future?
• Will it run non-stop from Wilmslow to Crewe, and if so, what mitigations are proposed for Alderley Edge, Holmes Chapel and Sandbach, where service frequency would be reduced?

IMO, introduction of this service would be a retrograde step. Rail services to and from Manchester Airport should primarily be to and from places in North-West England, as running unpunctual long-distance trains into this airport station adversely affects Manchester's local rail services; other regions have their own major airports.

All of these questions have been covered in this thread many times.
- It runs via Stoke as that is a potentially massive area that is currently uncovered. More people, arguably the vast majority, from the Stoke area use Manchester as their airport or choice, yet they only have direct trains to Birmingham.
- Airport services are often slow, with many stops. People generally leave plenty of time for journeys too airports so it's not really a deal breaker.
- Yes, pretty much a direct replacement. Styal unfortunately loses out and means connections needed.
- Not an express service, though a few stations are skipped (Goosetree isn't serviced I believe, for instance).

I feel there is a lot of scope in this service. Manchester Airport doesn't only serve the NW, and Stoke is within an hour of it, so clearly within it's catchment area for long haul flights. Which airport do you think Stoke/North Staffs should be using? It has 4 airports all very similar distances away.

 

[jfollows]

Styal will still be served, and via Wilmslow is a permitted route also for going to Manchester.

In the current timetable there’s a cross-platform change at Wilmslow for Styal-Wilmslow-Manchester, followed by the hourly Avanti service if the connection is missed which gets to Manchester at the same time anyway, for example.

Chelford and Goostrey have always been skipped. Originally because turn-round times at Crewe wouldn’t allow them, nor a Styal call, but the timetable has been fixed to rectify this.

Styal-Manchester via the airport might also be speeded up; the current through service stops everywhere but a change at Manchester Airport for Manchester could be a faster service. Even today, that’s possible with a change into the xx.04 to Glasgow/Edinburgh anyway.

Styal doesn’t lose out. It retains an hourly service in both directions. So what if one of them doesn’t go all the way to Manchester? Much better than the 2018 timetable shambles with a few calls only each day.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I feel there is a lot of scope in this service. Manchester Airport doesn't only serve the NW, and Stoke is within an hour of it, so clearly within it's catchment area for long haul flights. Which airport do you think Stoke/North Staffs should be using? It has 4 airports all very similar distances away.

Oh, I'm so sorry, I just can't help myself.

None of those four.
Meir Aerodrome instead!
Stokies own airport.
Previously served on request (to the stationmaster at Meir Station - also now closed).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What would the price difference be for a currently-issued Northern Trains peak-period day return from Heald Green to Holmes Chapel compared with the same journey using the two operators once this new service commences, that would require a change being made at Manchester Airport?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Oh, I'm so sorry, I just can't help myself.

None of those four.
Meir Aerodrome instead!
Stokies own airport.
Previously served on request (to the stationmaster at Meir Station - also now closed).

Haha. Brilliant!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would the price difference be for a currently-issued Northern Trains peak-period day return from Heald Green to Holmes Chapel compared with the same journey using the two operators once this new service commences, that would require a change being made at Manchester Airport?

TOC only walk up fares will likely go in time anyway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sandbach station is well placed for the large industrial estate of Elworth and in my local area, there are those who commute from both Gatley and from Heald Green station on the Styal Line Manchester to Crewe service to Sandbach. Have there been any station poster notifications on that line to inform commuters of what is planned for such services once the new service to and from the West Midlands becomes operational.

 

[The Planner]

Sandbach station is well placed for the large industrial estate of Elworth and in my local area, there are those who commute from both Gatley and from Heald Green station on the Styal Line Manchester to Crewe service to Sandbach. Have there been any station poster notifications on that line to inform commuters of what is planned for such services once the new service to and from the West Midlands becomes operational.

When the December timetable is offered in June and this is either confirmed or not, that will happen. You don't do that when the timetable isn't finished.