Are some rail companies trying to deter cyclist passengers?

[saismee]

Greater Anglia is very cyclist-friendly in my non-cycling eyes. I've seen the staff at Cambridge happily pile about 12 bikes into the bike area of a (nearly) full and standing evening peak service to Ipswich. Some had to be turned away, but the staff ensured there were no bikes blocking doors or vestibules.

6 spaces on all IC/rural services should certainly be the norm. It was probably better in the days of DVTs!

 

[Bletchleyite]

6 spaces on all IC/rural services should certainly be the norm. It was probably better in the days of DVTs!

If we'd stayed in the EU that would have been legally mandated. We just missed that one when we left, it wasn't in force yet so it didn't make it to UK law.

It has required DB, for instance, to have spaces on new ICEs which it didn't have before - previously ICEs only carried folders.

6 is a decent number TBH, it's a space about the size of the Class 156 van area or the Class 185 "ballroom" (though I'm aware the latter is wheelchair space), which is useful, if not being used as bike space, as standee or luggage space.

 

[bramling]

And, in some cases, actively hostile.

Certainly the case unfortunately, although I'd like to think this is a small albeit vocal minority. Seems to boil down to two unrelated issues, one being "cyclists get in the way of my road vehicle", and the other being some level of jealousy aimed at people who are fitter / have a better body.

 

[mike57]

I am a cyclist, and have taken my bike by train on the odd occasion.

For anything other than the odd local journey the whole system is quite offputting

• Different ToCs have different rules, so trying to plan a journey involving multiple ToCs becomes a near impossibility
• How do Advance tickets and 'first come first served' work
• If I am travelling late in the day and have to miss a train because the cycle spaces are full then I may miss my last connection home
• In the event of distruption RRB's don't take bikes
• Getting across London is nearly impossible unless you actually cycle between the stations

Given these points its not something I would do.

Rail and cycling should be a good combination, as a bike is a good way to complete the last leg of a journey from the station to your final destination.

I would actually happily pay for a 'bike space' up to a reasonable amount, if the rules were then consistent and better provision was made to address some or most of the problems. Otherwise I can see a situation where bike are not going to be carried.

As with most things railway related the current fragmented system hasn't helped, and the drive to reduce 'wasted' space means rolling stock procurement seems to be in the 'not quite enough' category on a lot of routes since privatisation.

 

[bramling]

I am a cyclist, and have taken my bike by train on the odd occasion.

For anything other than the odd local journey the whole system is quite offputting

• Different ToCs have different rules, so trying to plan a journey involving multiple ToCs becomes a near impossibility
• How do Advance tickets and 'first come first served' work
• If I am travelling late in the day and have to miss a train because the cycle spaces are full then I may miss my last connection home
• In the event of distruption RRB's don't take bikes
• Getting across London is nearly impossible unless you actually cycle between the stations

Given these points its not something I would do.

Rail and cycling should be a good combination, as a bike is a good way to complete the last leg of a journey from the station to your final destination.

I would actually happily pay for a 'bike space' up to a reasonable amount, if the rules were then consistent and better provision was made to address some or most of the problems. Otherwise I can see a situation where bike are not going to be carried.

As with most things railway related the current fragmented system hasn't helped, and the drive to reduce 'wasted' space means rolling stock procurement seems to be in the 'not quite enough' category on a lot of routes since privatisation.

The solution to some of these issues is folding cycles, albeit they are quite expensive even second-hand.

However some people don’t seem to be too keen on the sight of these either, and the industry once again seems to go out of their way to make life difficult - for example some staff wanting people to have their machine folded upon passing through the gateline, which is significant more inconvenient and awkward than folding it at the point of entraining. Indeed Brompton’s own advice is that the bike should be walked in full unfolded state wherever possible.

 

[Flying Snail]

The carriage of cycles is only viable if the numbers attempting to do it remain very low, to the point it is effectively a niche activity and for those who do use it a very heavily subsidised one.

Once demand for taking bikes on trains rises above niche it quickly becomes unsustainable on the modern railway, there simply is not the space for them..

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that the thread is about TOCs and their attitude to cyclists - it is not intended to be a thread about cyclist behavior.

thanks

 

[styles]

The solution to some of these issues is folding cycles, albeit they are quite expensive even second-hand.

However some people don’t seem to be too keen on the sight of these either, and the industry once again seems to go out of their way to make life difficult - for example some staff wanting people to have their machine folded upon passing through the gateline, which is significant more inconvenient and awkward than folding it at the point of entraining. Indeed Brompton’s own advice is that the bike should be walked in full unfolded state wherever possible.

I owned a Brompton when I lived in London. It was amazing. I would beat any cleat cyclist pulling off, beat motor vehicles over the route length, and I could put it under my desk instead of worrying about it getting nicked from a Sheffield stand by somebody with an angle grinder.

My Brompton cost me £1060 though, and most people don't have this sort of fund, even using the cycle to work scheme like I did.

But I really do think UK train operators need to be required by law to get a grip on this. We can't expect people from ditch cars if the public transport doesn't either link up directly or offer a public transport plus active travel mechanism.

I've had lots of really great experiences taking my bike on trains.

But also most of my worst train experiences have all involved taking my bike on trains.

 

[JohnMcL7]

But I really do think UK train operators need to be required by law to get a grip on this. We can't expect people from ditch cars if the public transport doesn't either link up directly or offer a public transport plus active travel mechanism.

I agree and it's one of the reasons I still have a car because I find it too difficult trying to go across the country and getting the bike booked on multiple different trains that line up with each other and if the bike will even fit, I've not tried getting into the class 800 cupboard but as it's quite a bit mountain bike I just don't think it will fit.

Scotrail aren't too bad now because they do show availability when you're choosing the train rather than only showing you after although availability seems poor, I think I read here they only allow two spaces to be booked which seems to line up with what I've seen. It is a bit of an annoyance having to print the ticket and attach it to the bike plus they seem inconsistent on checking which has been a worry when the train has been switched and there's potentially less bike slots. I'm also not keen on the vertical bike slots on the HSTs right by the doors especially when you're not supposed to lock the bike either although their main spaces work well.

I've taken the bike on Citylink which has been extremely straightforward because I just said I had a bike when booking then when I went to the bus they were expecting the bike and it slotted into a compartment at the front. Ember allow bikes on their buses as well so planning on trying them out next.

 

[mike57]

The solution to some of these issues is folding cycles, albeit they are quite expensive even second-hand.

Unfortunately my weight precludes a folding cycle. I did try one about 15 years ago, and it folded, while I was riding it. (I am around 20st, but have cycled all my life)

The carriage of cycles is only viable if the numbers attempting to do it remain very low, to the point it is effectively a niche activity and for those who do use it a very heavily subsidised one.

I think the key here is subsidised. Just about every journey off the main inter city routes is subsidised to some level, so the question is how much subsidy would be needed to 'do the job properly' and would that encourage people to switch from other modes (mainly car) to rail. Personally I think the answers may be 'not worth it'

In which case you either keep the status quo, but align systems across all operators, a GBR for cycle booking, or you just say No more non folding bikes.

 

[saismee]

Just about every journey off the main inter city routes is subsidised to some level

And a lot of the intercity routes are subsidised by the commuter services. Good luck getting enough bike space on them.

 

[styles]

I agree and it's one of the reasons I still have a car because I find it too difficult trying to go across the country and getting the bike booked on multiple different trains that line up with each other and if the bike will even fit, I've not tried getting into the class 800 cupboard but as it's quite a bit mountain bike I just don't think it will fit.

Scotrail aren't too bad now because they do show availability when you're choosing the train rather than only showing you after although availability seems poor, I think I read here they only allow two spaces to be booked which seems to line up with what I've seen. It is a bit of an annoyance having to print the ticket and attach it to the bike plus they seem inconsistent on checking which has been a worry when the train has been switched and there's potentially less bike slots. I'm also not keen on the vertical bike slots on the HSTs right by the doors especially when you're not supposed to lock the bike either although their main spaces work well.

I've taken the bike on Citylink which has been extremely straightforward because I just said I had a bike when booking then when I went to the bus they were expecting the bike and it slotted into a compartment at the front. Ember allow bikes on their buses as well so planning on trying them out next.

Yeah I find ScotRail, TfW, and Northern to be pretty decent for it.

Avanti can get in the sea.

LNER not bad, though the number of spaces is a bit of a constraint I've found.

TfL a pain mainly because of their ridiculous map.

Heathrow terminals 2 and 3 are a bit of a faff unless you work at the airport and can get free shuttle buses.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Trains and mass cycling do not mix terribly well. In the Netherlands a consequence of cycling being so widespread is that the railway has had to introduce certain very definite "anti-cyclist" measures. Non-folding bikes are banned on trains at peak times (they employ people to stand on the platforms and shout at anyone who tries to take their bike on) and the railway runs an extensive national bike hire scheme specifically to discourage people from bringing their own bikes onboard.

 

[matchmaker]

Kudos to Scotrail for the 153s!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Yeah I find ScotRail, TfW, and Northern to be pretty decent for it.

Avanti can get in the sea.

LNER not bad, though the number of spaces is a bit of a constraint I've found.

TfL a pain mainly because of their ridiculous map.

Heathrow terminals 2 and 3 are a bit of a faff unless you work at the airport and can get free shuttle buses.

I find it difficult to understand the circumstances which would require taking a cycle by train to Heathrow Airport. Or can you take cycles on planes?

 

[styles]

I find it difficult to understand the circumstances which would require taking a cycle by train to Heathrow Airport. Or can you take cycles on planes?

Sorry I should've clarified - I was at this point discussing general cycling viability. I wouldn't expect to take a train to Heathrow T2&3 with a bicycle unless I was running really late for a flight and wanted to cycle back on my return journey.

I do however cycle to airports quite often. Most are fine, but Heathrow is a pain in the bum.

But yes you can take cycles on planes. Most airlines require them to either be in cycle bags or cycle boxes. Plenty of people do this for cycling holidays etc.

 

[AndrewP]

I find it difficult to understand the circumstances which would require taking a cycle by train to Heathrow Airport. Or can you take cycles on planes?

Yes they can go in the hold as luggage - I know someone who has done it

Although I am not a cyclist, surely if a train has cycle spaces they should be as easy to book as seats if the train has bookable seats?

Provision is a different matter as there will always be a debate of people space vs luggage space vs cycle space and that would be a policy issue for those in charge

 

[The Ham]

Part of the issue is that the UK would rather squeeze 10 extra seats on a train rather than run a reasonable length train or provide extra infrastructure capacity.

For example for the SWR area all train to/ through Woking could have a 50% increase in frequency which as a side effect allow the extension of the Victoria line Southwards to allow the Tube serve more of London south of the Thames. However, such benefits of Crossrail 2 aren't well know and so it's only freaky seen as of benefit to only London (not also Winchester, Southampton, Wokinf, Guildford, Farnborough, Portsmouth, Salisbury and potentially even out to Exeter - although the latter would require addition works to the WofE line).

The thing with longer trains or where more trains can be run without additional infrastructure is that it could actually reduce the total subsidy required to run the railways, even if it doesn't it's still likely to reduce the subsidy per passenger.

Even if it does increase the total subsidy, with more people using rail it could delay the need for road building (for example if the WofE line had more capacity and even slightly faster travel time, the train from Basingstoke to Exeter is already 12 minutes faster than by road, I'd that could become 30 minutes faster that could reduce the need to build the Stonehenge tunnel and the other road schemes to deal with congestion on the A303).

Whilst rail is only ever going to be a small part of travel, where there's suitable options or can help with reducing road congestion.

 

[Krokodil]

I know from painful experience (literally) on the Mid-Cheshire line on more than one occasion I've had to move / clamber over numerous bikes on busy services, sometimes on a single 150 I've counted almost a dozen bikes deposited all over the train as the cycle area has been full.

That's a line that would really benefit from active travel 153s, given all the mountain bikes going to Delamere. Back when 101s were used on the route, it wasn't unheard of for the van to be absolutely full of bicycles, all held vertically.

I believe Avanti to be anti-cyclist.

They require printing the reservation - a screenshot on the phone isn't sufficient

I've been OK with Avanti on the handful of times I've needed a cycle reservation. On one occasion I arrived at Crewe, went to the booking office, showed my ticket, asked for a bike reservation and it was sorted. No trouble boarding the Pendo, though as we slowed for Lichfield I clocked the "make sure you inform the Train Manager" sign - I hadn't seen them. I went down to coach C and the buffet steward put out an announcement to get the TM's attention - she had remembered that there was a bike coming off, but was busy down the other end of the train and did come down the platform to let mine out of the van.

I also recall a passenger who was going to be missing a connection at Warrington and his original reservation was therefore useless. I used my initiative and phoned the station who got the booking office to print a fresh reservation for the new connection.

Then I've boarded with a bicycle, had a change of staff, new ticket check, informed the new ticket inspector that I've got a bicycle that I need to get out at Bangor (it's in a non-passenger accessible compartment so needs staff to open the door), and nobody came to let us get to the bicycles at Bangor. So had to wave the staff down on the platform and they begrudgingly came and opened the door.

What type of unit was this on? Presumably not a Voyager (I never knew the doors into the area behind the cab to be locked), and Pendos haven't been that way in decades. I can't picture the exact provision on an 805, whenever I've put a bike on one I've just been going one stop so the guard wasn't fussed about reservations or stowing it properly. I'm currently on a GWR 802 which has the same arrangement you'd find in an XC Voyager (I hate trying to life the front wheel into that). Never known that to be locked.

The vast majority of people will be able to receive one by e-mail.

I'm sure they would do something different e.g. post it to you if you don't. But that's a tiny minority now.

The call handler reading out a ToD code over the phone would be an obvious solution.

Greater Anglia is very cyclist-friendly in my non-cycling eyes. I've seen the staff at Cambridge happily pile about 12 bikes into the bike area of a (nearly) full and standing evening peak service to Ipswich. Some had to be turned away, but the staff ensured there were no bikes blocking doors or vestibules.

6 spaces on all IC/rural services should certainly be the norm. It was probably better in the days of DVTs!

I miss my days of working loco-hauled trains. Even got a tandem in once, no bother.

And a lot of the intercity routes are subsidised by the commuter services. Good luck getting enough bike space on them.

Can you provide a citation for that? Generally the intercity operators are profitable, whereas the commuter operators have to balance a few busy trains in a unit's diagram with all the fresh air it carries around for the rest of the day.

Yeah I find ScotRail, TfW, and Northern to be pretty decent for it.

TfW always advertised "max two bikes" but in practice it's usually possible to get more in safely. The bike spaces in a 197 and in the 175s before them could take four bikes without fouling the aisle, provided that you stacked them head-to-tail.

 

[saismee]

Can you provide a citation for that? Generally the intercity operators are profitable, whereas the commuter operators have to balance a few busy trains in a unit's diagram with all the fresh air it carries around for the rest of the day.

Completely abysmal wording on my part. I meant to say they aren't as profitable from what I understand. Space on intercity services can be a lot more premium, so putting in those few extra seats seems to be operators' priority.

I think GA's triple traction is probably the service with most bike/accessible accommodation. Up to 18 bikes!

 

[styles]

What type of unit was this on? Presumably not a Voyager (I never knew the doors into the area behind the cab to be locked), and Pendos haven't been that way in decades. I can't picture the exact provision on an 805, whenever I've put a bike on one I've just been going one stop so the guard wasn't fussed about reservations or stowing it properly. I'm currently on a GWR 802 which has the same arrangement you'd find in an XC Voyager (I hate trying to life the front wheel into that). Never known that to be locked.

Pendos, coach A. This was March 2022, so the Pendos certainly weren't all stripped of this arrangement a decade ago. Maybe most were?

At Crewe the staff member came and opened up coach A for us and let us load our bikes then closed the exterior door letting us make our own way into the seated area. The door back to the cycle area, directly behind the driver's cab, required staff to unlock.

I can maybe understand why this area should normally be out of bounds for passengers because it's basically the driver's cab and kitchen space, but the bicycle spaces being there and inaccessible is a bit of an issue. We were sensible enough to take the panniers off our bikes, otherwise it could've been a bit of a pain getting to them if we'd needed something out of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At Crewe the staff member came and opened up coach A for us and let us load our bikes then closed the exterior door letting us make our own way into the seated area. The door back to the cycle area, directly behind the driver's cab, required staff to unlock.

You can just push the door open. Shouldn't be possible to but it is. It sometimes even opens itself when the train tilts.

I can maybe understand why this area should normally be out of bounds for passengers because it's basically the driver's cab and kitchen space, but the bicycle spaces being there and inaccessible is a bit of an issue. We were sensible enough to take the panniers off our bikes, otherwise it could've been a bit of a pain getting to them if we'd needed something out of them.

I prefer it to be locked off, as then I know my bike is secure.

 

[RJ]

Not an attitude thing, but GTR are removing cycle straps from the designated wheelchair areas on the 377s at least, and advising cyclists to keep their bikes in the vestibule areas for now. But this is more to do with preserving accessibility than hostility towards cyclists.

 

[Haywain]

but the bicycle spaces being there and inaccessible is a bit of an issue.

If my bike was there and I was travelling in first class I would regard the bike being accessible as the problem.

 

[styles]

If my bike was there and I was travelling in first class I would regard the bike being accessible as the problem.

I may be missing it but what's the relevance of first class in the scenario?

The train can surely be rearranged such that there is cycle storage closer to first class. Also, cycle infrastructure on trains should support locks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I may be missing it but what's the relevance of first class in the scenario?

It's a long distance from the bike space so you can't keep an eye on it.

I regard it as the best setup because:
1. The space is properly shaped and adequate;
2. The space is secure-ish (though it'd be better if you couldn't just pull that door open, though I think it's because it's an emergency exit);
3. Staff can ensure unbooked bikes are not loaded, thus avoiding taking space from those who have booked.

It's basically a traditional van.

If the staff don't show up it's easy enough to prevent departure by putting your foot in the passenger door, they'll soon come over then.

 

[Krokodil]

Pendos, coach A. This was March 2022, so the Pendos certainly weren't all stripped of this arrangement a decade ago. Maybe most were?

You mentioned Bangor, which made me wonder as Pendos haven't been there since 2008.

I can maybe understand why this area should normally be out of bounds for passengers because it's basically the driver's cab and kitchen space

More importantly, I believe that it's also the impact zone in the event of a collision.

 

[Bald Rick]

Never had a problem using Avanti, WMT or Thameslink.

The problem I do have is that it feels like cheating (by not cycling the distance covered).

 

[styles]

You mentioned Bangor, which made me wonder as Pendos haven't been there since 2008.

Pass on that one. I'm not very good with train classes.

More importantly, I believe that it's also the impact zone in the event of a collision.

Possibly, but seems odd that this arrangement is restricted to Pendos (unless there's another operator who has this arrangement I'm not aware of).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2026 ==

Never had a problem using Avanti, WMT or Thameslink.

The problem I do have is that it feels like cheating (by not cycling the distance covered).

On the flip side, I've actually found it to be a selling point! When I was living in London going hiking in Snowdonia every couple of months, train+bike was a grand option. The cost of owning or even renting+fuelling a car from London was usually much higher.

 

[Krokodil]

Possibly, but seems odd that this arrangement is restricted to Pendos (unless there's another operator who has this arrangement I'm not aware of).

Avanti's Voyagers had the bikes behind a lockable door between the driver's cab and the leading passenger doors, though it was never really locked in my experience. Presumably that too is a part of the train that deforms in a collision and passengers aren't supposed to be riding in. Any train operated with a Mk3 or Mk4 DVT uses the same arrangement as on a Pendo.