UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[E27007]

I seem to recall the benefit of a Hybrid over an ICE was on journeys where more stop-start driving was involved (typically town) and/or hilly routes driven. The energy wasted when braking can be used to charge the battery instead. That was explored and talked about maybe more than ten years ago so 2013 makes sense. Obviously a pure EV would be better as the engine is dispensed with and EVs have been getting better since Hybrids were a thing.

Regret to write, the above does not properly describe the key principle of the hybrid .
The overarching principle of the hybrid is firstly an IC engine designed and engineered specifically for high fuel-efficiency and usually with a characteristic of weak torque and bhp, weakness of engine torque and bhp negatively affect vehicle operation, reduced acceleration and ability to ascend gradients.
An engineered solution to improve vehicle operation, we add a battery and electric motor to the powertrain, the powertrain which combines the stored power in a battery and the strong torque of an electric motor to supplement the IC engine. The end result is a car of a characteristic of both fuel-efficiency and positive vehicle operation.

 

[jon0844]

Depends on the inflation measure used. CPI gives £1.16.

If using RPI, 58p in 1997 is £1.48 now.

Of course fuel is a direct component of both, and indirect influence on much of the rest, so it is a bit circular.

Also, 3 years later in 2000, unleaded was 85p a litre, which by CPI is £1.62 today and RPI is £2.02.

It's more complicated than even that because oil prices have always fluctuated. Plus, I still stand my point that wages have not kept in line with inflation for an awful lot of people - especially in cases where people have had to reapply for their jobs on worse pay and conditions, or working more hours, losing pay for overtime and so on - often relying on pay top-ups.

On the flip side, cars are cheaper in many cases, but then labour rates for servicing are far higher, plus insurance has had many ups and downs.. it's definitely complicated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2026 ==

And, notably, BMW stopped making them in short order. Perhaps the best example still in production is the London Taxi, although the number that actually have the extended running at any given time is pretty small.

Probably because once someone gets an EV, they soon realise the range extender isn't necessary. It's more a peace of mind thing that worked when EVs were newer, and there were fewer places to charge, and I see why Americans may have concerns because there are large gaps in chargers, but in the long term they probably aren't something most people need at all.

That said, I'd sooner have a range extender than a full-on mechanical engine setup with all the stuff that will make servicing and maintenance (especially on older vehicles) cost more. A range extender is pretty simple in comparison and if it stops working, you can still use the car without any issue.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Regret to write, the above does not properly describe the key principle of the hybrid .
The overarching principle of the hybrid is firstly an IC engine designed and engineered specifically for high fuel-efficiency and usually with a characteristic of weak torque and bhp, weakness of engine torque and bhp negatively affect vehicle operation, reduced acceleration and ability to ascend gradients.
An engineered solution to improve vehicle operation, we add a battery and electric motor to the powertrain, the powertrain which combines the stored power in a battery and the strong torque of an electric motor to supplement the IC engine. The end result is a car of a characteristic of both fuel-efficiency and positive vehicle operation.

Thanks for the proper description.

I had rather streamlined it !. My main aim was an attempt to highlight how far back the aspirations of a Hybrid were. I think the progress of EVs now makes Hybrids a bit of an awkward middle ground. I was interested at the time but never buying new meant I was was only watching.

 

[miami]

But for an awful lot of people wages have not kept with inflation.

Which means an awful lot of peoples wages have increased beyond inflation to counteract that.

I remember getting 30mpg in my car in 1999, and 52mpg today. Jan 1st 97 had petrol at 61p, CPI index puts that at 123p today. 30mpg at £2.75 a gallon was 9.1p per mile. Adjust by CPI from 69.2 in Jan 97 to 140.1 today and that's 18.4p a mile today.

Even at today's £7.20 a gallon that's 13.8p. To get a 52mpg car to cost 18.4p a mile would require petrol at £2.10 a litre.

 

[jon0844]

Which means an awful lot of peoples wages have increased beyond inflation

Well, now we see the divide between most workers and management, there's certainly a fair few people who have likely enjoyed inflation-busting pay rises for sure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2026 ==

Thanks for the proper description.

I had rather streamlined it !. My main aim was an attempt to highlight how far back the aspirations of a Hybrid were. I think the progress of EVs now makes Hybrids a bit of an awkward middle ground. I was interested at the time but never buying new meant I was was only watching.

I don't think people need to buy hybrids, but there's constant attacks on EVs daily that casts doubt in people's minds. They have range anxiety issues that quickly slip away once you get an EV, but of course a lot of people aren't going to get an EV on the basis of others saying 'you'll be fine'. Car dealers will almost certainly be steering people towards hybrids because that ensures the best chance of ongoing profit as the cars need servicing and repairs. They need to protect their own interests, like servicing, the sale and fitting of parts etc.

What will happen is that as more people get EVs, more people will be out there showing they don't have any issues. Friends and family will find it harder to argue against EVs when people around them have one, and they're not saying that they had to change their battery last week, the car caught fire the week before and they regularly spend hours stranded at the roadside because the battery ran out.

Before we got an EV, many dealers that offered test drives were asking why we wanted one. They said they were more expensive etc. To be fair, once it was clear (and I was clear with them) why we wanted one, they stopped going down that road and suddenly EVs were painted as the future, cheaper to run etc... which I already knew obviously. It's not even that they didn't have EVs in stock ready to sell!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well, now we see the divide between most workers and management, there's certainly a fair few people who have likely enjoyed inflation-busting pay rises for sure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2026 ==



I don't think people need to buy hybrids, but there's constant attacks on EVs daily that casts doubt in people's minds. They have range anxiety issues that quickly slip away once you get an EV, but of course a lot of people aren't going to get an EV on the basis of others saying 'you'll be fine'. Car dealers will almost certainly be steering people towards hybrids because that ensures the best chance of ongoing profit as the cars need servicing and repairs. They need to protect their own interests, like servicing, the sale and fitting of parts etc.

What will happen is that as more people get EVs, more people will be out there showing they don't have any issues. Friends and family will find it harder to argue against EVs when people around them have one, and they're not saying that they had to change their battery last week, the car caught fire the week before and they regularly spend hours stranded at the roadside because the battery ran out.

Before we got an EV, many dealers that offered test drives were asking why we wanted one. They said they were more expensive etc. To be fair, once it was clear (and I was clear with them) why we wanted one, they stopped going down that road and suddenly EVs were painted as the future, cheaper to run etc... which I already knew obviously. It's not even that they didn't have EVs in stock ready to sell!

Of course part of it is that many people do not like change imposed on them. Takes time.

I certainly avoid being an early adopter of technology exacerbated by me never buying a new car or even a young car. So range anxiety should be fully behind one and all by the time I buy and it is just be up to how time has worn the car out vs reliability. I am hoping battery technology and management of batteries will have already improved enough now that a 10-15 year old EV will be a safe bat down the time line.

 

[E27007]

Thanks for the proper description.

I had rather streamlined it !. My main aim was an attempt to highlight how far back the aspirations of a Hybrid were. I think the progress of EVs now makes Hybrids a bit of an awkward middle ground. I was interested at the time but never buying new meant I was was only watching.

The vehicle industry is truly in an awkward middle ground.
Be reminded Toyota and Honda first sold hybrid cars as long ago as 1999 and by 2005, the hybrid car, the Prius, a mainstream vehicle in the USA.
Also consider the negative attitude to hybrid powertrain technology by the European car makers, they rejected the technology, in fact scornful of the Japanese and hybrid technology, instead they sought the pan-dieselisation of the European car market, the Eu listened and granted many favours to the European car makers to promote diesel ICE cars.
The European cars makers serviced a large market for diesel cars but took liberties with meeting emissions standards, found out and punished by the USA " dieselgate", we are in Europe are living with the consequences, a car industry driven by the politicians, car makers quick-marched at great cost to electrify motor vehicles

 

[Peter Sarf]

The vehicle industry is truly in an awkward middle ground.
Be reminded Toyota and Honda first sold hybrid cars as long ago as 1999 and by 2005, the hybrid car, the Prius, a mainstream vehicle in the USA.
Also consider the negative attitude to hybrid powertrain technology by the European car makers, they rejected the technology, in fact scornful of the Japanese and hybrid technology, instead they sought the pan-dieselisation of the European car market, the Eu listened and granted many favours to the European car makers to promote diesel ICE cars.
The European cars makers serviced a large market for diesel cars but took liberties with meeting emissions standards, found out and punished by the USA " dieselgate", we are in Europe are living with the consequences, a car industry driven by the politicians, car makers quick-marched at great cost to electrify motor vehicles

Yes. There is (or was) a lot of money at stake. It perhaps takes companies or states with little or no interest-in/commitment-to heritage technology to take new technology forward.

 

[BananaRepublic]

That’s called a range extender EV. They’ve been around for ages, BMW had their i3 in 2013.

.....notably, BMW stopped making them in short order........

The i3 was mostly sold in battery EV only form, with a range extender version available.
They didn't sell many of the range extender versions.

 

[JamesT]

The i3 was mostly sold in battery EV only form, with a range extender version available.
They didn't sell many of the range extender versions.

Sure. My point was that series hybrid/range extenders aren't a new thing, and that consumers have generally shunned them in favour of parallel or parallel/series hybrids (e.g. Toyota's models). I don't see that there's going to be a sudden flood of them onto the market. People that want EVs will buy EVs, those that don't think EVs are right for them will buy something with an ICE in it. The arrangement of the power sources won't come into it, but what they think is the best overall car.

 

[Noddy]

Surprised no one has post this yet:

Electric car prices have reached a tipping point in the UK, with new EVs now cheaper to buy, on average, than petrol models for the first time, according to the latest figures from Autotrader.

The average new electric car now costs £42,620, compared with £43,405 for a petrol equivalent, based on advertised retail prices after discounts – a £785 saving in favour of going electric. It’s a small gap, but a significant one, marking a shift in a market where upfront cost has long been one of the biggest barriers to EV adoption.

Electric cars now cheaper than petrol cars for the first time

Autotrader data shows EV prices undercut petrol while Renault 5 leads buyer interest and Chinese Jaecoo 5 second

www.independent.co.uk

 

[The Ham]

Surprised no one has post this yet:

Electric cars now cheaper than petrol cars for the first time

Autotrader data shows EV prices undercut petrol while Renault 5 leads buyer interest and Chinese Jaecoo 5 second

www.independent.co.uk

Whilst that may well be due to the value of the cars being purchased (if all the petrol cars were Rolls Royce and all the electric cars were Zoe), due to the way averages work, there are some examples like the Vauxhall Frontera where the hybrid and electric models are advertised as being the same price.

 

[Snow1964]

Interesting updates in various motoring / car magazines regarding small electric cars over next 12 months.

Firstly some context
10-15 years ago electric cars were a niche
5-10 years ago a few small electric cars, which were more updates of petrol models eg e-up, electric mini, mii, Citigo, Smart etc.

Then small electric cars virtually stopped being made, because manufacturers concentrated on bigger family cars and luxury cars.

But now it seems small electric cars are about to be mainstream, and some opinions think they will take off more in rural areas where people have second car due to lack of regular public transport. They also note much more likely to have drives and garages, so home charging would be option.

Renault has highly rated 5 and 4 and expected to bring Twingo to UK next year

VW group has just launched CUPRA Raval, with similar VW ID Polo soon, and a more SUV style ID polo cross and Skoda Epiq in few months

Kia launched EV2, and smaller EV1 maybe next year, another Korean brand Hyundai already has Inster

Citroen has e-C3

Fiat has Grande Panda,

Nissan has new Micra, and a new Juke (with its origami fold styling)

BYD has the dolphin and smaller dolphin surf

Vauxhall is selling some small electric cars for same price as petrol equivalents

Dacia has Spring, and another small electric soon sharing parts with Twingo

For clarity, limited list to small or cheaper cars, there are plenty of family size or premium cars coming too. Trying to show that they will soon be available on more mainstream or second car size too.

 

[jon0844]

Ford is also bringing back the Fiesta which was a top selling car for multiple years. Based on the Renault 5 I really hope they can't screw it up with bad design!

Once you've driven an EV, I really can't see how you'd prefer to buy a small petrol car with a 1.1 or 1.2ltr engine and next to no power. Don't get me wrong, they'll get you from A to B but you can get so much more for the same money, or perhaps less as time goes on.

Batteries are getting cheaper and smaller, lighter cars can make so with smaller batteries too. If you can home charge why do you need 300+ miles of range?

 

[johncrossley]

another Korean brand Hyundai already has Casper

In the UK it is called the Inster and the i10 had to die to make way for it (Hyundai turned over the factory in Turkey that used to make the i10 to the Inster). The Inster is hideously ugly. Why couldn't they have made an electric i10 instead?

 

[jon0844]

I think it looks quite, erm, interesting on the outside but it's pretty fantastic on the inside for giving multiple options for carrying people, luggage or even letting you bed down for the night.

Versatility in small cars is very important as it can remove some of the needs for a larger, heavier, car.

There's no reason other car makers couldn't try the same and offer more traditional designs. Hyundai cars can be quite Marmite in terms of design.

 

[johncrossley]

The reviews for the Inster seem very positive, it has to be said.

 

[jmh59]

The Inster 02 may well be the next, and probably the last car (*) we will buy. Yes the design is odd but as jon0844 pointed out the internal versatility is good. I test drove one and flung it around a bit and found it nippy and stable. Mind you I call it the Hyundai Hamster.

* OTOH I may keep the current electric car and run it into the ground and then switch to public transport. The amount of taxes and charges we get now make having a car for occasional use just not budget friendly. Or get back to my roots, get a nice old Land Rover, old enough to not have tax or MoT, easy to service and fix, use short term insurance etc...

 

[Peter Sarf]

The Inster 02 may well be the next, and probably the last car (*) we will buy. Yes the design is odd but as jon0844 pointed out the internal versatility is good. I test drove one and flung it around a bit and found it nippy and stable. Mind you I call it the Hyundai Hamster.

* OTOH I may keep the current electric car and run it into the ground and then switch to public transport. The amount of taxes and charges we get now make having a car for occasional use just not budget friendly. Or get back to my roots, get a nice old Land Rover, old enough to not have tax or MoT, easy to service and fix, use short term insurance etc...

I have to say. Living in London I feel the same. I just need a car for the odd times I really need a car, I use public transport or walk as much as I can, the missus on the other hand really wants to travel like royalty, cheaper to take the coach from London to Cardiff and sometimes a van would be better for some tasks. Hiring soon adds up unfortunately but would provide the flexibilty (van for some tasks and smaller car for other tasks).

Hiring would lead me to try EVs sooner I suspect.

The short term car hire facilities seem to have died ("car clubs ?).
So I am wondering if EVs will be a better bet for short term hires.
I suppose the risk is a typical short term hire customer is going to be someone who was used to an ICE and has given up owning.

In the meantime my lightly used car sits awaiting its next rare trip out there on the road nowhere near a charging facility.

 

[Noddy]

Whilst that may well be due to the value of the cars being purchased (if all the petrol cars were Rolls Royce and all the electric cars were Zoe), due to the way averages work, there are some examples like the Vauxhall Frontera where the hybrid and electric models are advertised as being the same price.

It’s about the advertised model price, not the number or type sold. First time it’s crossed over in the UK, at least according to Autotrader. Obviously there are still some big grants on some models (eg the Puma) and smaller grants on others (Kia EV4) but there’s nothing on any more expensive models (eg Hyundai Ioniq 5) or any Chinese models despite MG being the most ‘popular’ maker on Autotrader at the time of their survey.

 

[DelW]

Or get back to my roots, get a nice old Land Rover, old enough to not have tax or MoT, easy to service and fix, use short term insurance etc...

And you get the benefit of a free keep-fit workout with every journey. I used to drive Land Rovers for work in the 1970s and '80s, and my recollection is that their steering and brakes were very heavy even by the standards of those days when power assistance was rare in ordinary cars. Nowadays when everything is power assisted they'd be even more of an outlier. The excessive compulsory ventilation and minimal creature comforts might be an issue too. But each to their own

 

[jmh59]

my recollection is that their steering and brakes were very heavy even by the standards of those days

Wait... yours had brakes??

 

[DelW]

Wait... yours had brakes??

If I had a heavy enough boot on my right foot (I was often driving in wellingtons).

At one point I had a long wheelbase diesel ... which I often had to turn round in a dead-end country lane. I reckon I had muscles like Popeye after a few goes at that.

 

[E27007]

Once you've driven an EV, I really can't see how you'd prefer to buy a small petrol car with a 1.1 or 1.2ltr engine and next to no power. Don't get me wrong, they'll get you from A to B but you can get so much more for the same money, or perhaps less as time goes on.

The 0 to 60 mph sprint timing is a factor in the rating assessment for. the insurance group of a vehicle, how does the significantly greater acceleration of a ZEV car over an ICE car affect the insurance group rating?

 

[johncrossley]

The Hyundai Inster is in insurance groups 21 to 24 whereas the i10 is in groups 1 to 7. This discrepancy needs sorting out.

 

[thejuggler]

The Hyundai Inster is in insurance groups 21 to 24 whereas the i10 is in groups 1 to 7. This discrepancy needs sorting out.

It probably won't be. The higher group is due to the potential repair and claim costs. Have a low speed "T bone" incident in a new low value i10 and the vehicle will have a door and sill repair. Have the same in a new EV with potential battery pack damage and the car may well be written off.

Have a look at salvage auctions with almost new expensive EVs being written off for what appears to be damage which on an ICE would be fixed.

smart cars had a similar problem as it was not possible to repair the Tridion safety cell. Any damage to that and the car was written off.

The plus side is a higher group does not always mean higher premium. Driver experience, address, occupation are far more significant factors. Many years ago my wife changed her car from an i20 to a Mercedes A class and she received a premium refund as the Merc was cheaper to insure, despite being in a much higher group.

 

[miami]

Surprised no one has post this yet:

Electric cars now cheaper than petrol cars for the first time

Autotrader data shows EV prices undercut petrol while Renault 5 leads buyer interest and Chinese Jaecoo 5 second

www.independent.co.uk

How do we have a world where people think £44k is acceptable to spend on a car when on average they drive under 8000 miles a year.

If a car lasts 200,000 miles (and just 1% of cars on autotrader are more than 150k miles), that's 22p a mile just in the cost of the car, excluding tax, maintenance, insurance.

Petrol meanwhile is 15p a mile, likely half the rest of the car costs.

Why do people get so het up when petrol goes from £1.30 a litre to £1.50 a litre when they're spending 22p a mile on deprecation.

Once you've driven an EV, I really can't see how you'd prefer to buy a small petrol car with a 1.1 or 1.2ltr engine and next to no power. Don't get me wrong, they'll get you from A to B

Thus fulfilling the requirement of a car.

I have a car to get me from A to B. My 1 litre micra, my wife's 1l skoda both work fine, and both get stuck behind the same vehicles

Why would I want a larger engine? Do I get better mpg from it?

 

[Noddy]

How do we have a world where people think £44k is acceptable to spend on a car when on average they drive under 8000 miles a year.

If a car lasts 200,000 miles (and just 1% of cars on autotrader are more than 150k miles), that's 22p a mile just in the cost of the car, excluding tax, maintenance, insurance.

Petrol meanwhile is 15p a mile, likely half the rest of the car costs.

Why do people get so het up when petrol goes from £1.30 a litre to £1.50 a litre when they're spending 22p a mile on deprecation.



Thus fulfilling the requirement of a car.

I have a car to get me from A to B. My 1 litre micra, my wife's 1l skoda both work fine, and both get stuck behind the same vehicles

Why would I want a larger engine? Do I get better mpg from it?

To some degree I agree. However, you won’t be able to carry lots of folk (or stuff) long distances in your micra. One thing that is noticeable is that driving long journeys is much more comfortable and less tiring in larger car than a smaller car (I used to have a Micra years ago, now I have a Cupra Born and its like night and day). That’s not to say the larger car needs to be stupidly expensive.

And more generally this is one area where EVs win hands down. They are so much quieter, easy to drive and therefore less tiring (and ultimately safer in this respect).

 

[miami]

To some degree I agree. However, you won’t be able to carry lots of folk (or stuff) long distances in your micra.

But we can in the Skoda Kamiq, especially if we put the roof rack on. It's very rare we'd do that though as we rarely need to transport more than two adults, two teenagers, two large suitcases and a couple of smaller "hand luggage" size bags

I guess if you wanted to take 5 adults frequently you'd choose something larger -- say an Octavia. Those also come in 1 litre engines.

But if a larger engine does mean better mpg ("so much more") then sure.

 

[Peter Sarf]

How do we have a world where people think £44k is acceptable to spend on a car when on average they drive under 8000 miles a year.

If a car lasts 200,000 miles (and just 1% of cars on autotrader are more than 150k miles), that's 22p a mile just in the cost of the car, excluding tax, maintenance, insurance.

Petrol meanwhile is 15p a mile, likely half the rest of the car costs.

Why do people get so het up when petrol goes from £1.30 a litre to £1.50 a litre when they're spending 22p a mile on deprecation.



Thus fulfilling the requirement of a car.

I have a car to get me from A to B. My 1 litre micra, my wife's 1l skoda both work fine, and both get stuck behind the same vehicles

Why would I want a larger engine? Do I get better mpg from it?

Welcome to my world. I do a low mileage so depreciation is significant - so I buy, already depreciated, 10-15 year old cars (sometimes older).