UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Mawkie]

Has there been any progress in getting us to a world where you can just use a card on a terminal like you do at a petrol station when charging on public infrastructure?

As of 24th November 2024, UK law requires all new public EV charge points rated 8kW or higher, and existing rapid chargers (50kW+), to offer contactless payment.

 

[ainsworth74]

As of 24th November 2024, UK law requires all new public EV charge points rated 8kW or higher, and existing rapid chargers (50kW+), to offer contactless payment.

Oh excellent, I'd missed that piece of news! Fingers crossed some of the older chargers that would be in scope if they were fitted now will be retrofitted...

 

[Mawkie]

I doubt it. Would be hard to fit contactless points to some of the lowest power chargers, such as lamposts.

Of course Tesla have had this since inception.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....the public charging infrastructure is so ludicrously app based and requiring an account to boot....

As Mawkie says, high powered (= "rapid") chargers are almost all contactless enabled; all new installations are, and old ones are being retrofitted. I don't recall the last time I needed an app for a DC rapid - not that I need to use one often. It's only 7kW AC units that doggedly remain app based. That's not to say that some account/app/etc might not offer a slightly reduced rate at a DC rapid, but that's a choice rather than a necessity - just like having a Clubcard may get you a price reduction - if you want.

 

[The Ham]

Or more likely doing a one or two 30-50 mile round trips each week and not driving the rest of the time.

Unlikely, on average an individual would do 34 trips (either as a driver 21 or a passenger 13) of 25 miles or more, or just 13 (either as a driver 7 or a passenger 6) of 50 miles or more.

That compares with you're suggestion which would require 104 trips of over 25 miles or 52 trips of over 50 miles.

Assuming that they are the driver that's 5 times the average for the 30 to 49 mile option or 7 times the average for the 50 mile option.

Those are significant higher than the average, whist not impossible, it's certainly not more likely than regular more shorter trips.

 

[Mawkie]

BYD have shown their Flash Charging in Europe for the first time.


The picture shows a car's screen indicating 10%-97% charging in less than 10 minutes. Adding 585km or 363 miles. For me, that's a 10 minute charge to get me to Edinburgh.

Is it a gamechanger? Depends on charger availability I suspect, but it's certainly impressive.

 

[martin butler]

BYD have shown their Flash Charging in Europe for the first time.

View attachment 202039
The picture shows a car's screen indicating 10%-97% charging in less than 10 minutes. Adding 585km or 363 miles. For me, that's a 10 minute charge to get me to Edinburgh.

Is it a gamechanger? Depends on charger availability I suspect, but it's certainly impressive.

It's certainly impressive, but it's going to depend on how good the roll out is, and if its just for BYD, or if the technology is transferable to other makes, but it will certainly make EV ownership more practical , especially if on cars with this type of battery a 9 minute charge sets you good for 585 miles.

 

[jon0844]

While it is a gamechanger for sure, it's not something most people will need once they get used to smaller top up charges when taking a break.

These help stop the anti EV brigade saying it's too slow to charge, but a lot of people aren't bothered about the time because they're not holding a nozzle and simply doing something else.

In some cases you can be charged for being in a bay too long!

 

[Noddy]

Whilst I'm a convert to EVs (I'm not quite sure I can pull off an EV for my next car but it's certainly in the mix!) the one thing that does annoy me is that the public charging infrastructure is so ludicrously app based and requiring an account to boot. I think that's one of the things that eventually put my mum off getting an EV a couple of years ago (as an EV was a strong contender). Has there been any progress in getting us to a world where you can just use a card on a terminal like you do at a petrol station when charging on public infrastructure?

Obviously ideally you'd charge at home (particularly with a solar and battery installation meaning the electricity could be had almost for free!) but there will always be times when you need to top-up away from home for whatever reason and needing to faff around with an app is an annoying friction point!

As of 24th November 2024, UK law requires all new public EV charge points rated 8kW or higher, and existing rapid chargers (50kW+), to offer contactless payment.

As well as contactless there are roaming networks which cover most of the charge point operators (CPOs). The largest is Electroverse which covers the vast majority of CPOs and gives you a free RFID card (some other networks charge for their RFID card). There are other benefits available through Electroverse which can reduce costs. I use it and haven’t ever had to use an App to charge my EV.

But like Mawkie says sometimes using a CPO app is beneficial as they can offer big discounts which are only available in App. Plus you do want to use some mapping Apps like Electroverse or ZapMap to find the cheapest and/or nearest available charger.

 

[johncrossley]

Sure, a Smart car today isn't going to be as cheap as other small cars (e.g. Dacia Spring, Renault Twingo etc) because of the marque, but I'm sure it will be nearer £20-23k, possibly less depending on grants. £30k from 4-5 years ago is also going to be far higher in today's money so the difference will be even greater.

One selling point of Smart cars is the network of enthusiast independent mechanics. These independent specialists know everything there is to know about the relatively few Smart models and are well known in the Smart car community. Some people drive to long distances to get to their favourite Smart mechanic. If you buy a more standard make of car, then you either have to go to a main dealer or an independent who doesn't specialise in any particular make, so there is more chance of things either going wrong or being overcharged. What other make of car (apart from premium or very specialist cars) have this advantage of Smart cars?

 

[SargeNpton]

Some people drive to long distances to get to their favourite Smart mechanic.

Not a lot of good if your Smart car is outside your house, not starting, and you have no idea why.

For any old classic car, if you want to keep it running you must have some mechanical know-how.

 

[The Ham]

Not a lot of good if your Smart car is outside your house, not starting, and you have no idea why.

For any old classic car, if you want to keep it running you must have some mechanical know-how.

True to a point, however, if you go somewhere regularly (even if that's once a year) most such garages would likely be willing to talk to you with some options to try before needing to call (or waiting for) the likes of the AA, Greenflag or RAC (obviously still not helpfully outside of trading hours, however given that wait times for at home can be quite long, that's likely to be a fairly small issue).

 

[johncrossley]

Not a lot of good if your Smart car is outside your house, not starting, and you have no idea why.

I'm talking about travelling for regular servicing.

 

[BananaRepublic]

March new car sales figures are out

Battery Electric 86,120 (22.4%)
Plug in electric PHEV 49,671 (13.0%)
Hybrid HEV 60,268 (15.8%)
Petrol 165,997 (43.6%)
Diesel 18,571 (4.9%)

So over 35% now battery or PHEV, and less than 50% pure fossil fuel

UK New Car Registration Data - Latest Figures & Statistics | SMMT

Discover the latest UK car registration data: new car registration statistics, the number of cars in the UK, and more.

www.smmt.co.uk

I’m a bit late replying to this post, but I thought it worth pointing something out about the SMMT monthly stats.

Until about 18 months ago, those stats listed mild-hybrids, both petrol and diesel, separately.
Now the mild-hybrid figures are combined with pure petrol and diesel.
The full data is still available, but I believe only as part of paid for statistics.

We will have to wait for the Europe wide stats to be released towards the end of the month, to find out the true split between pure petrol/diesel and mild-hybrid versions of both fuel types.

If the last few months are anything to go by, “pure petrol“ and “pure diesel” (i.e. no form of electrification) combined, now only account for less than 30% of new registrations in the UK.


.

 

[miami]

The "regenrating" style of hybrid, which I guess is "mild hybrid", where all energy comes from petrol, is just a petrol car with a different mpg

March stats say of new cars, 65% get all their energy input solely from a petrol/diesel pump, and 22% solely from an electrical socket.

That's disappointingly low even given that electric cars do the most mileage.

It's just going to get worse as

1) Salary Sacrifice is reduced from 2029
2) BiK on electric cars in increased now
3) More tax is put on electric cars

It's like the government doesn't want to transition people away from petrol

 

[Peter Sarf]

The "regenrating" style of hybrid, which I guess is "mild hybrid", where all energy comes from petrol, is just a petrol car with a different mpg

March stats say of new cars, 65% get all their energy input solely from a petrol/diesel pump, and 22% solely from an electrical socket.

That's disappointingly low even given that electric cars do the most mileage.

It's just going to get worse as

1) Salary Sacrifice is reduced from 2029
2) BiK on electric cars in increased now
3) More tax is put on electric cars

It's like the government doesn't want to transition people away from petrol

It's like the government are moving the goalposts as usual.

Seen it in the past with gas conversions and encouraging diesel over petrol.
To be fair diesel was not considered so dirty years back.

Also the country is broke. So need to raise money left, right and centre. No party wants to admit it though !.
Probably time for a new topic if people want to reply.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "regenrating" style of hybrid, which I guess is "mild hybrid", where all energy comes from petrol, is just a petrol car with a different mpg

Regen can be useful just as it can be on trains. If you drive a hilly route it can significantly improve fuel consumption. If you drive a flat one it probably won't make much difference.

 

[jon0844]

The "regenrating" style of hybrid, which I guess is "mild hybrid", where all energy comes from petrol, is just a petrol car with a different mpg

March stats say of new cars, 65% get all their energy input solely from a petrol/diesel pump, and 22% solely from an electrical socket.

That's disappointingly low even given that electric cars do the most mileage.

It's just going to get worse as

1) Salary Sacrifice is reduced from 2029
2) BiK on electric cars in increased now
3) More tax is put on electric cars

It's like the government doesn't want to transition people away from petrol

There will come a point where people just want an EV so will buy one regardless of subsidies, especially as battery prices continue to fall.

The rise in oil prices has almost certainly had an effect too.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The "regenrating" style of hybrid, which I guess is "mild hybrid", where all energy comes from petrol, is just a petrol car with a different mpg

March stats say of new cars, 65% get all their energy input solely from a petrol/diesel pump, and 22% solely from an electrical socket.

That's disappointingly low even given that electric cars do the most mileage.

It's just going to get worse as

1) Salary Sacrifice is reduced from 2029
2) BiK on electric cars in increased now
3) More tax is put on electric cars

It's like the government doesn't want to transition people away from petrol

The salary sacrifice stuff is specific to pension contributions.

Doesn't mean it may not be changed for other schemes in the future too but the currently announcement plans are just about charging NI for salary sacrifice pensions for values over £2k to match up with no salary sacrifice pensions. It doesnt stop you using salary sacrifice schemes, it doesnt stop the other tax benefits of using salary sacrifice schemes and it doesnt apply to EV car schemes.

And in terms of the other tax bits, ultimately its a balance between encouraging people to move to EVs and ensuring tax revenue doesnt drop with people paying less of the deisel / petrol related duties.

 

[miami]

Regen can be useful just as it can be on trains. If you drive a hilly route it can significantly improve fuel consumption. If you drive a flat one it probably won't make much difference.

So it changes MPG from 40mpg to 80mpg.

A Toyota RAV4 2.5 Hybrid does 49mpg according to whatcar.com. That's about the same as a Citreon C1. Drive 10,000 miles in a year and you'll burn through about 200 gallons of petrol. Maybe it's 180, maybe its 220.

An electric vehicle however will burn through zero.

The rise in oil prices has almost certainly had an effect too.

There is no real rise, not over the last 25 years. Adjust for inflation, and for wages. It's takes less work to buy petrol to fill your car up today than it was in Jan 2000, or Jan 2015, or Jan 2010, and its stll cheaper than in Jan 2010 and Jan 2020 when adjusted for inflation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So it changes MPG from 40mpg to 80mpg.

A Toyota RAV4 2.5 Hybrid does 49mpg according to whatcar.com. That's about the same as a Citreon C1. Drive 10,000 miles in a year and you'll burn through about 200 gallons of petrol. Maybe it's 180, maybe its 220.

An electric vehicle however will burn through zero.

And? If there are going to be ICE vehicles, and there will for a while yet, isn't it better that they're more efficient ones?

 

[Snow1964]

It's like the government doesn't want to transition people away from petrol

With petrol, Government gets duty per litre, VAT at 20%, and even VAT on duty

With electric cars charged at home, just get 5% VAT (and all sorts of levies, which are effectively a tax with different name, although these have been cut this month).

So for petrol car doing 100 miles get about £9, but a home charged electric doing 100 miles car gives them about 20p. So from tax raising point of view which the Government prefer is a no brainer

 

[Bletchleyite]

A mileage charge will come to EVs in due course.

 

[martin butler]

Already there are cars that are electrically powered, but have a petrol engine that charges the battery, I watched a report on one just the other day, I forget what car it was, but from what the researcher said, was the petrol engine was there only to boost the battery, it wasn't connected to the drive chain. If you rev it, you won't pull away any faster,

Thes type of technology is probably the best stop gap until ICE cars can be replaced by pure electric, certainly in situations where it can extend range,

 

[JamesT]

Already there are cars that are electrically powered, but have a petrol engine that charges the battery, I watched a report on one just the other day, I forget what car it was, but from what the researcher said, was the petrol engine was there only to boost the battery, it wasn't connected to the drive chain. If you rev it, you won't pull away any faster,

Thes type of technology is probably the best stop gap until ICE cars can be replaced by pure electric, certainly in situations where it can extend range,

That’s called a range extender EV. They’ve been around for ages, BMW had their i3 in 2013.

Depending on your use case, they’re less efficient than hybrids. You’re adding a conversion to and from electric which introduces losses compared to directly driving from the engine.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That’s called a range extender EV. They’ve been around for ages, BMW had their i3 in 2013.

Depending on your use case, they’re less efficient than hybrids. You’re adding a conversion to and from electric which introduces losses compared to directly driving from the engine.

I seem to recall the benefit of a Hybrid over an ICE was on journeys where more stop-start driving was involved (typically town) and/or hilly routes driven. The energy wasted when braking can be used to charge the battery instead. That was explored and talked about maybe more than ten years ago so 2013 makes sense. Obviously a pure EV would be better as the engine is dispensed with and EVs have been getting better since Hybrids were a thing.

 

[bspahh]

I seem to recall the benefit of a Hybrid over an ICE was on journeys where more stop-start driving was involved (typically town) and/or hilly routes driven. The energy wasted when braking can be used to charge the battery instead.

Mild hybrids are good for reducing pollution in heavy traffic in a built up area. The battery and motor add weight, and add quite a lot more complexity on top of the engine, so the benefits in CO2 emissions and running costs are modest.

Plug in hybrids have a longer range on the battery. They are also good for reducing pollution in built up areas. As company cars, where the driver has a fuel card, then they may never get plugged in and end up as a heavy and complex petrol car with cheaper tax. When they are used by people who pay for their fuel, then they are more likely to be plugged in and might actually produce less CO2 than the equivalent petrol car.

 

[jon0844]

So it changes MPG from 40mpg to 80mpg.

A Toyota RAV4 2.5 Hybrid does 49mpg according to whatcar.com. That's about the same as a Citreon C1. Drive 10,000 miles in a year and you'll burn through about 200 gallons of petrol. Maybe it's 180, maybe its 220.

An electric vehicle however will burn through zero.



There is no real rise, not over the last 25 years. Adjust for inflation, and for wages. It's takes less work to buy petrol to fill your car up today than it was in Jan 2000, or Jan 2015, or Jan 2010, and its stll cheaper than in Jan 2010 and Jan 2020 when adjusted for inflation.

View attachment 202400

But for an awful lot of people wages have not kept with inflation.

I seem to recall paying 58p a litre for petrol in 1997, which the Bank of England says would be £1.16 today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2026 ==

Already there are cars that are electrically powered, but have a petrol engine that charges the battery, I watched a report on one just the other day, I forget what car it was, but from what the researcher said, was the petrol engine was there only to boost the battery, it wasn't connected to the drive chain. If you rev it, you won't pull away any faster,

Thes type of technology is probably the best stop gap until ICE cars can be replaced by pure electric, certainly in situations where it can extend range,

Cars with range extenders (BMW had one for the i3 amongst others) are seemingly going to become more common in some markets, most likely north America where people do longer road trips than here (and most of Europe) where there's pretty solid coverage of public chargers.

It's not a terrible idea, but the car will not be considered as a true EV so might be subject to higher charges to access towns and cities in the future.

 

[Bald Rick]

I seem to recall paying 58p a litre for petrol in 1997, which the Bank of England says would be £1.16 today.

Depends on the inflation measure used. CPI gives £1.16.

If using RPI, 58p in 1997 is £1.48 now.

Of course fuel is a direct component of both, and indirect influence on much of the rest, so it is a bit circular.


Also, 3 years later in 2000, unleaded was 85p a litre, which by CPI is £1.62 today and RPI is £2.02.

That’s called a range extender EV. They’ve been around for ages, BMW had their i3 in 2013.

And, notably, BMW stopped making them in short order. Perhaps the best example still in production is the London Taxi, although the number that actually have the extended running at any given time is pretty small.

 

[DelW]

Mild hybrids are good for reducing pollution in heavy traffic in a built up area. The battery and motor add weight, and add quite a lot more complexity on top of the engine, so the benefits in CO2 emissions and running costs are modest.

Plug in hybrids have a longer range on the battery. They are also good for reducing pollution in built up areas. As company cars, where the driver has a fuel card, then they may never get plugged in and end up as a heavy and complex petrol car with cheaper tax. When they are used by people who pay for their fuel, then they are more likely to be plugged in and might actually produce less CO2 than the equivalent petrol car.

Manufacturers use different terms, but AIUI:

a) mild hybrids have a small motor/generator, which can assist during acceleration but can't power the vehicle on its own. The engine has to be running for the vehicle to move.

b) normal hybrids (aka "self-charging" hybrids) have a motor/generator that can power the vehicle at town driving speeds. Battery capacity limits electric range to a mile or two. All energy still comes from petrol.

c) plug-in hybrids have a motor/generator that can power the vehicle at main road or motorway speeds, with an electric range of (typically) 30 - 40 miles. Some energy comes from mains power assuming the driver chooses to plug them in when possible.

d range-extenders have electric drive only, with a petrol engine which can recharge the traction battery via a separate generator.