Future of the 350/2s

[Bletchleyite]

String up some wires to Windermere, some tactical platform extensions between there and Manchester, and then run them via Wigan so you don't have to extend platforms at Bolton?

I'll get my coat...

It would be one way to deal with Golborne too.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Saw this photo by Daniel Sandow on Facebook showing most of the fleet at Long Marston.

It certainly is sad seeing these sitting around these days.

Just wish they'd see off the 323s here in Manchester. WMR are enjoying their 730s so why can't Manchester have a fully air-conditioned fleet of electrics bar the 769s?

 

[Class450/4DES]

Saw this photo by Daniel Sandow on Facebook showing most of the fleet at Long Marston.

It certainly is sad seeing these sitting around these days.

As a fan on the Desiros, it's sad to see them like that. They should of either gone to Northern or SWR. Northern have got replacements sorted out and I don't even know what's happening with the WofE line anymore.

 

[Gricer99]

Why can’t these be used on the recentlyelectrified Wigan NorthWestern to Stalybridge service leaving Southport services to the 769 fleet?

 

[FrontSideBus]

Just wish they'd see off the 323s here in Manchester. WMR are enjoying their 730s so why can't Manchester have a fully air-conditioned fleet of electrics bar the 769s?

As much as I like the sound of the 323's, I second this!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As much as I like the sound of the 323's, I second this!

The 323s are the best trains on the network, as they were the last ones to be built in Yorkshire. #BringThemHome

 

[Rick1984]

Send them to GWR to displace the cl387 to Southern and allow more cl377 to transfer to Southeastern.
It would unfortunately mean redoing Heathrow Express again.

 

[Harpo]

Saw this photo by Daniel Sandow on Facebook showing most of the fleet at Long Marston.

It certainly is sad seeing these sitting around these days.

A national disgrace that illustrates England’s inability to electrify its rail network.

Meanwhile back at a fume-filled New Street as a rammed 4 car Voyager chugs off on a fully electrified railway to Manchester…….

 

[Snow1964]

Send them to GWR to displace the cl387 to Southern and allow more cl377 to transfer to Southeastern.
It would unfortunately mean redoing Heathrow Express again.

There are 30 standard class 387 and 12 Heathrow units on GWR

Even if they just sent the 30 across to Southern (and possibly moved some 377 / 375 to South Eastern) then it would be better.

Of course if they finished the Didcot-Oxford electrification (and about third the mast bases are already in, before worked stopped), then 37 units would be about right number to replace 30 class 387s, and would ease shortage of diesel units in rapidly growing Bristol area.

But that would require joined up thinking to interlink multiple business cases and make the sum better than individual schemes

 

[The Ham]

A national disgrace that illustrates England’s inability to electrify its rail network.

Meanwhile back at a fume-filled New Street as a rammed 4 car Voyager chugs off on a fully electrified railway to Manchester…….

The really crazy thing is that EMU lease costs (per coach) are typically lower and the 350's would have 24 first class seats and a minimum of 206 standard class seats (230 total) which isn't that far behind a 5 coach 221 which as built had 246 seats.

The second point, means that even if the per coach lease costs were the same for every 4 sets (221) you could lease 5 sets (350). Which would mean you could lease the full 37 sets of the 350's plus create 4 sets of 7 coaches (221, which is the same capacity as a pair of 4 coach 221's) and it still be the same cost as leasing just the full fleet of 221's at XC (32 sets of 5 coaches and 4 sets of 4 coaches).

Whist a single 350 would be a slight capacity reduction, the above would mean double the capacity of the 4 coach 221's (as they would now all be 7 coaches) and 5 diagrams running in pairs (with basically the same capacity as a 4+5 pairing)

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Send them to GWR to displace the cl387 to Southern and allow more cl377 to transfer to Southeastern.
It would unfortunately mean redoing Heathrow Express again.

I'm not sure older 3+2-seated trains is a good idea. Plus the 387's are perfectly reliable.

 

[Snow1964]

I'm not sure older 3+2-seated trains is a good idea. Plus the 387's are perfectly reliable.

I suspect the 350 would get a mid life refurbishment which could include new seats, for any new operator, they might be around for another 20-25 years.

As others have suggested, maybe moving some 387s to join others is also reasonable option, especially if it allows 35+ year old trains eg 465s (that currently do not have replacements on order) to be cascaded out

 

[Rail Quest]

I suspect the 350 would get a mid life refurbishment which could include new seats, for any new operator, they might be around for another 20-25 years.

They could get the same treatment as the EMR 360s are currently undergoing, same designs and everything, and they'd be excellent trains for however long they'd then last.

I'm getting really concerned as to how open-ended all of this still is, though. Failure to find a new home for these seems to be looking increasingly likely.

 

[brad465]

While there is some logic in a 350s to GWR to cascade 387s move, would GWR really tolerate taking on an older fleet in such a way? They might if the fleet size increased and they are able to take advantage of this, such as Oxford electrification and/or more Cardiff EMUs allowing IETs to strengthen other services, however these will also need a major timetable rework, especially given how Cardiff services interwork with other routes that are not fully electrified.

 

[Snow1964]

I'm getting really concerned as to how open-ended all of this still is, though. Failure to find a new home for these seems to be looking increasingly likely.

Not really a problem having them parked for next few months, over warmer months.

But becomes a problem in Autumn and winter if they are not properly prepared for damp and condensation and frozen condensation

 

[YorksLad12]

A national disgrace that illustrates England’s inability to electrify its rail network.

Meanwhile back at a fume-filled New Street as a rammed 4 car Voyager chugs off on a fully electrified railway to Manchester…….

It's a pity you can't (I guess) hook a 350 to a 220 and have it dragged or pushed between Birmingham and York (say) to provide extra capacity. The 220 would do the ends of the route on its own. You might have to reduce the seating to be 2+2, which would push the cost up.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It's a pity you can't (I guess) hook a 350 to a 220 and have it dragged or pushed between Birmingham and York (say) to provide extra capacity. The 220 would do the ends of the route on its own. You might have to reduce the seating to be 2+2, which would push the cost up.

Could we turn them into the new loco hauled 442s?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

While there is some logic in a 350s to GWR to cascade 387s move, would GWR really tolerate taking on an older fleet in such a way? They might if the fleet size increased and they are able to take advantage of this, such as Oxford electrification and/or more Cardiff EMUs allowing IETs to strengthen other services, however these will also need a major timetable rework, especially given how Cardiff services interwork with other routes that are not fully electrified.

Thats not their choice. The plain fact is industry is short of cash and these could be used to facilitate more Networker withdrawals. rather than building new units which would be 4-5yrs away.

 

[Kite159]

Not really a problem having them parked for next few months, over warmer months.

But becomes a problem in Autumn and winter if they are not properly prepared for damp and condensation and frozen condensation

At least they are not getting stored near the sea like some of the 379s were (Harwich),

 

[Rick1984]

There are 30 standard class 387 and 12 Heathrow units on GWR

Even if they just sent the 30 across to Southern (and possibly moved some 377 / 375 to South Eastern) then it would be better.

Of course if they finished the Didcot-Oxford electrification (and about third the mast bases are already in, before worked stopped), then 37 units would be about right number to replace 30 class 387s, and would ease shortage of diesel units in rapidly growing Bristol area.

But that would require joined up thinking to interlink multiple business cases and make the sum better than individual schemes

I was forgetting the HX was a separate franchise. So can leave it as is.
Also good idea having more of the class 387 under one operator

 

[JamesT]

I was forgetting the HX was a separate franchise. So can leave it as is.
Also good idea having more of the class 387 under one operator

It may be a separate service, with different vinyls on the outside, but surely having only one type of EMU to maintain and the drivers to be certified on is better for GWR?

 

[Chiltern006]

And the HEX 387s are maintained by GWR at Reading so getting rid would make things that little bit more complicated

 

[Rick1984]

That would be a downside

 

[Stephen42]

Thats not their choice. The plain fact is industry is short of cash and these could be used to facilitate more Networker withdrawals. rather than building new units which would be 4-5yrs away.

Would agree it all comes down the net subsidy impact than it being older stock. If the older stock is less reliable and harder to maintain that can change the financial impact, the 350/2s are unlikely to enter that category.

I think it's unlikely the numbers work out for GWR to take them to displace Networkers. For GWR itself, unless more electrification happens (more cost) there isn't a need for 37 units. Some images online show them without bodyside cameras, would GWR require fitment of those? It's also likely to take two years to bring them into full service with the all costs associated with that including crew training. Maintenance costs would increase with two separate fleets instead of one being looked after at Reading. Longer term it seems likely battery units will displace some of these EMUs, the 387s can easily be absorbed by Southern given likely demand growth, the 350/2s won't have a convenient home.

For Southeastern, they don't have any 387s. If taking more 377s with Southern getting 387s it's likely difficult for Selhurst to continue maintaining all 68 377s on the Southeastern network. These 377s would need deploying onto metro routes requiring further driver training. The units are likely to have lower overall capacity than the Networker replacement fleet requiring more trains running for the same passenger capacity.

The headline lease cost might be lower for 350/2s than the Networker replacement, but all the other costs could easily counteract that.

 

[anthony263]

If Patchway- Bristol TM - Bathampton.was wired and they could be fitted with 3rd rail shoes snd batteries id say put them.on the Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour service

 

[Agent_Squash]

Would agree it all comes down the net subsidy impact than it being older stock. If the older stock is less reliable and harder to maintain that can change the financial impact, the 350/2s are unlikely to enter that category.

I think it's unlikely the numbers work out for GWR to take them to displace Networkers. For GWR itself, unless more electrification happens (more cost) there isn't a need for 37 units. Some images online show them without bodyside cameras, would GWR require fitment of those? It's also likely to take two years to bring them into full service with the all costs associated with that including crew training. Maintenance costs would increase with two separate fleets instead of one being looked after at Reading. Longer term it seems likely battery units will displace some of these EMUs, the 387s can easily be absorbed by Southern given likely demand growth, the 350/2s won't have a convenient home.

For Southeastern, they don't have any 387s. If taking more 377s with Southern getting 387s it's likely difficult for Selhurst to continue maintaining all 68 377s on the Southeastern network. These 377s would need deploying onto metro routes requiring further driver training. The units are likely to have lower overall capacity than the Networker replacement fleet requiring more trains running for the same passenger capacity.

The headline lease cost might be lower for 350/2s than the Networker replacement, but all the other costs could easily counteract that.

Surely GN Hornsey would be a good place? Already services 700/717 iirc.

 

[D365]

Given that the Class 350/2, Class 377, Class 379 and Class 387 fleets are entirely owned by Porterbrook. I don’t see how the reshuffling of these fleets would provide any sort of meaningful net benefit.

 

[Class 466]

A week of sweltering commutes on grotty ex West Midlands 323s has me longing for 350s to transfer to Northern. There would certainly be benefits to such a scheme, but I frankly don’t see it happening in today’s penny pinching climate on the railway. See 323 refurbishment that seems to be on ice.

 

[lowe1409]

A week of sweltering commutes on grotty ex West Midlands 323s has me longing for 350s to transfer to Northern. There would certainly be benefits to such a scheme, but I frankly don’t see it happening in today’s penny pinching climate on the railway. See 323 refurbishment that seems to be on ice.

Has that got anything to do with the fact they're running out of spare parts and I'd be impressed if they last until northerns fleet replacement.

I know the Glossop trial was a failure but didn't they also do one on the Manchester blackpools? How did that go? As well, could they not be used on the stokes the crewes? The former certainly has some longer stop spacing where their full speed could be utilised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't help but think the Hadfield trials failed deliberately. The obvious answer if they couldn't keep time is to change the timetable. One way for instance to gain extra time would be to operate services as a Manchester-Hadfield-Glossop-Manchester and Manchester-Glossop-Hadfield-Manchester "circular".