Certifying 9F's to run to Whitby

[SomeTrainboy]

I know that 9F's are forbidden to run on the mainline due to the risk of derailments due to heightened check rails. But surely the NYMR should at least test it, there's only FIVE sets of points towards Whitby, and if it doesn't work, it won't take much to adjust them right?

 

[D1537]

What could possibly go wrong?

Apart from 92134 not being mainline passed, I remember reading that one of the curves near Whitby is actually too sharp for a 9F anyway (I could be misremembering that). Anyone shed any light?

 

[Krokodil]

Can the NYMR even afford to fit more locos with TPWS?

 

[35B]

What could possibly go wrong?
Apart from 92134 not being mainline passed, I remember reading that one of the curves near Whitby is actually too sharp for a 9F anyway (I could be misremembering that). Anyone shed any light?

Given the overheating on 60007's cartazzi when it ran to Whitby, who knows!

 

[Iskra]

You’re assuming that the NYMR intends to keep running to Whitby.

Considering the financial pressures on the railway, fitting rakes of coaches with CDL may be deemed uneconomical and the Whitby operation may not continue.

 

[D1537]

There aren't that many operational locomotives at the NYMR that can go to Whitby anyway, are there?

I think it's just the two Black Fives, 31128 and 37688.

 

[35B]

You’re assuming that the NYMR intends to keep running to Whitby.

Considering the financial pressures on the railway, fitting rakes of coaches with CDL may be deemed uneconomical and the Whitby operation may not continue.

I'd be inclined to think that the railway's management would do anything rather than concede that one.

 

[Iskra]

I'd be inclined to think that the railway's management would do anything rather than concede that one.

The railway’s management don’t seem entirely logical, if we’re being honest. And there’s an expensive bridge to sort out first.

 

[neil65]

There aren't that many operational locomotives at the NYMR that can go to Whitby anyway, are there?

I think it's just the two Black Fives, 31128 and 37688.

Repton

 

[zwk500]

I know that 9F's are forbidden to run on the mainline due to the risk of derailments due to heightened check rails.

and if it doesn't work, it won't take much to adjust them right?

If it doesn't work, there is a higher-than-acceptable chance of derailment.

If a derailment does occur, it would cause the public service to Whitby to be suspended for an appreciable length of time (potentially days) until the 9F can be rerailed and then recovered to a siding. The damage to "the Railway" generally will be immense reputationally. The damage to NR and Northern reputationally and financially will be painful. The damage to NYMR reputationally and financially may well be existential.

That's a lot to risk for the sake of a loco running a few miles further along the line.

 

[35B]

If it doesn't work, there is a higher-than-acceptable chance of derailment.

If a derailment does occur, it would cause the public service to Whitby to be suspended for an appreciable length of time (potentially days) until the 9F can be rerailed and then recovered to a siding. The damage to "the Railway" generally will be immense reputationally. The damage to NR and Northern reputationally and financially will be painful. The damage to NYMR reputationally and financially may well be existential.

That's a lot to risk for the sake of a loco running a few miles further along the line.

There's also the minor matter that Network Rail's asset information should allow that validation to be done without needing to risk such a test.

 

[SomeTrainboy]

If it doesn't work, there is a higher-than-acceptable chance of derailment.

If a derailment does occur, it would cause the public service to Whitby to be suspended for an appreciable length of time (potentially days) until the 9F can be rerailed and then recovered to a siding. The damage to "the Railway" generally will be immense reputationally. The damage to NR and Northern reputationally and financially will be painful. The damage to NYMR reputationally and financially may well be existential.

That's a lot to risk for the sake of a loco running a few miles further along the line.

I don't pretend to be an expert but surely they'll be able to realise it won't clear it and stop before such a derail occurs

 

[43096]

I don't pretend to be an expert but surely they'll be able to realise it won't clear it and stop before such a derail occurs

You do know how long trains take to stop?

 

[zwk500]

I don't pretend to be an expert but surely they'll be able to realise it won't clear it and stop before such a derail occurs

Who is 'they' in this scenario?

The driver? Think about what view they'd have from the footplate.
An engineer trackside? Think about the view they'd get through the middle pair of driving wheels on a 2-10-0 of the check rails.
Network Rail? They've already said they don't think it will clear it.

NR have trains fitted with track (and bridge) scanning equipment that check the network on a rolling basis. They feed this data into their databases. In order to get approval to run on the mainline, locos are scanned to produce a digital model that is then checked against NR's systems for compatibility. They haven't banned 9Fs for a laugh.

 

[WestAnglian]

I know that 9F's are forbidden to run on the mainline due to the risk of derailments due to heightened check rails. But surely the NYMR should at least test it, there's only FIVE sets of points towards Whitby, and if it doesn't work, it won't take much to adjust them right?

I thought NR were also unhappy about the hammer blows of 9Fs?

 

[TheBeard]

They run decapod wheelbase locomotives widely in Europe is it track issue they don't have?

 

[Brush 4]

I didn't realise it is a ban based on theory and not reality. Why haven't NR done a test somewhere quiet on the network?

 

[Spartacus]

I thought NR were also unhappy about the hammer blows of 9Fs?

The pway on the NYMR aren’t exactly delighted with it!

9Fs aren’t exactly banned, but none are cleared, or likely to be due to the pointwork issue.

It’s funny really. Never mind the worst that could happen; the BEST that could happen is the NYMR lose their operators licence due to running a locomotive on the main line that isn’t certified on a line it isn’t cleared for. It simply wouldn’t be cleared without the necessary route clearance work, let along fitting of the required safety systems. M

Even if the 9F was cleared, it’s a lot of money to spend on a locomotive that can go nowhere else on the main line. I can’t really imagine the NYMR doing the work to check if it’s going to have pointwork issues before submitting anything to NR.

And it would be the NYMR who’d have to do the work, not NR. It’s the loco they’d plan to use with the issues, not the points. A 9F doesn’t have some sort of ‘grandfather rights’ to run where ever it 40-60 years ago.

 

[Falcon1200]

Why haven't NR done a test somewhere quiet on the network?

Why would they? What demand or necessity is there to run 9Fs on the network? Apart from how a 9F (whose 9F?) would get to this 'quiet part of the network', and where would that be?

 

[Dunfanaghy Roa]

They run 2 10 0s widely in Europe is it track issue they don't have?

In Germany classes 50 and 52 (for example) have flanges on the centre drivers*. The coupled wheelbase is flexible due to the Krauss-Helmholz truck, which steers the leading couple axle.
Pat

* It is such a thin flange you could probably shave with it! But it does the job.

 

[Cowley]

Why would they? What demand or necessity is there to run 9Fs on the network? Apart from how a 9F (whose 9F?) would get to this 'quiet part of the network', and where would that be?

These would seem to me to be the most obvious points (pardon the pun).

 

[martin butler]

In order for a 9f to be accepted by NR, it would need to have the flangeless driving tyres replaced with flanged,

Now could that actually be done, and what effect would that have on the loco? they were fitted with flangeless tyres on the centre drivers for a reason,

 

[edwin_m]

Why would they? What demand or necessity is there to run 9Fs on the network? Apart from how a 9F (whose 9F?) would get to this 'quiet part of the network', and where would that be?

It may also be that it derails only 1% or 0.001% of the time when it encounters a checkrail. Checkrails away from the test route might also have different geometries that influence the likelihood of derailment. So running it a few times on one route wouldn't give confidence that it is safe.

Also, a derailment during a test run would be a hazardous and costly event, not to mention seriously damaging a historic locomotive, so everyone would have to be confident that it wasn't going to derail and the test would become just a confirmation. Therefore, complex and expensive theoretical analysis would be needed even for a test run.

 

[Cowley]

Do the NYMR actually possess a 9F?

 

[sprinterguy]

Do the NYMR actually possess a 9F?

It's not owned by the railway themselves, but yes 92134 has been resident on the NYMR since completion of its restoration in late 2019 (it recently visited the GCR for their Winter Steam Gala).

 

[Cowley]

It's not owned by the railway themselves, but yes 92134 has been resident on the NYMR since completion of its restoration in late 2019 (it recently visited the GCR for their Winter Steam Gala).

Ah ok, thanks for @sprinterguy

 

[Flapland]

I would love to a see a 9f on the mainline but accept I have to manage with videos of when 922220 did.

 

[RT4038]

And it would be the NYMR who’d have to do the work, not NR. It’s the loco they’d plan to use with the issues, not the points. A 9F doesn’t have some sort of ‘grandfather rights’ to run where ever it 40-60 years ago.

Aside from the Great Central and the Gloucester & Warwickshire, are there any other now preserved lines that 9Fs ran on a regular basis? I very much doubt the Pickering-Whitby was one!

 

[Krokodil]

Aside from the Great Central and the Gloucester & Warwickshire, are there any other now preserved lines that 9Fs ran on a regular basis?

Avon Valley, I presume. And the Somerset & Dorset not that either is particularly long now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2026 ==

I would love to a see a 9f on the mainline

I'd sooner see one back at Merehead for an open day

 

[Flapland]

Thats a good shout, I remember years ago Black Prince broke some record or other. Also didn't a 8f do something around the time of the Rainhill 150 event on a mainline freight train.