I Squared Capital - Arriva UK BUS

[Simon75]

Since they are investing in new buses, be interested to know if they will expand rather than sell off/close..
I believe the last company they bought out was Wardle Transport in Stoke-on-Trent in 2010 !

 

[BuhSnarf]

Let's just say that it's a platform which is well used by a number of other operators and it's a country mile better than the current app/website. There are still a few One thing that I know though is that many will rejoice over is that you won't be forced to rely upon the godawful PDF timetables like current.

I hope it's not the platform that Go Ahead use...

 

[SSmith2009]

Since they are investing in new buses, be interested to know if they will expand rather than sell off/close..
I believe the last company they bought out was Wardle Transport in Stoke-on-Trent in 2010 !

they also bought Centrebus out of their joint 50/50 'Centrebus Holdings' venture in 2013.

 

[Budge1980]

they also bought Centrebus out of their joint 50/50 'Centrebus Holdings' venture in 2013.

Since they are investing in new buses, be interested to know if they will expand rather than sell off/close..
I believe the last company they bought out was Wardle Transport in Stoke-on-Trent in 2010 !

Wikipedia matches my memory of Arriva's disastrous purchase of Midland (known previously as Choice Travel). It says that Arriva took over Midland on 23 Sept 2012.

Midland (bus operator) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Living on some of the prime Midland routes, I was incredulous about the purchase. It was almost as staggering as their purchase of Chase Coaches in Feb 2007 (again as someone who used and lived on their routes). The fleets in both cases were in need of serious modernisation and the routes largely secondary. Why do it? Reduce competition on their existing routes, the land the depots sat on if owned and gain a presence in the West Midlands I guess. I just couldn't see the value for money angle.

So I would tread very carefully if I was I Squared about expansion in the future. In regards to "rather than sell off/close". Surely all the dead wood has been long since pruned. If the depots were basket cases, I can't see that DB would have kept them on with such an ageing fleet to spread so thinly.

 

[317 forever]

Since they are investing in new buses, be interested to know if they will expand rather than sell off/close..
I believe the last company they bought out was Wardle Transport in Stoke-on-Trent in 2010 !

That was the last one they bought out. They did however expand services in Widnes, albeit mainly services into Liverpool, when Halton Transport collapsed in early 2020.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So I would tread very carefully if I was I Squared about expansion in the future. In regards to "rather than sell off/close". Surely all the dead wood has been long since pruned. If the depots were basket cases, I can't see that DB would have kept them on with such an ageing fleet to spread so thinly.

A very good point.

People have got to remember that they have a huge investment requirement just to address the long standing backlog of fleet replacement. They need to sort that out before buying something else.

 

[Simon75]

So I would tread very carefully if I was I Squared about expansion in the future. In regards to "rather than sell off/close". Surely all the dead wood has been long since pruned. If the depots were basket cases, I can't see that DB would have kept them on with such an ageing fleet to spread so thinly.

They also didn't win any Bee Network routes.
Colchester is an area, which im surprised they still there, as there has often been rumours of it getting sold/close down. They did originally do that but gained it via the purchase of Tellings-Golden Miller

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They also didn't win any Bee Network routes.

They didn't bid for any because they didn't have the financial resources to invest/were focussing on the sale.

Colchester is an area, which im surprised they still there, as there has often been rumours of it getting sold/close down. They did originally do that but gained it via the purchase of Tellings-Golden Miller

They've battened down the hatches at Colchester, and First's assault has relented slightly.

 

[riceuten]

I have received the following email from Arriva about a new website/app coming soon for Arriva:

They also made a post on social media that said more or less the same thing.

I'll keep this to discussing the app and not Non-Arriva Herts and Essex's lamentable services - the app will not properly track buses in real time now or in the future, because to "cancel" buses means someone has to physically intervene to remove it from the system.

In any case, we *sort* of have real time data already on the app but it's riddled with errors. So any actual improvement to "Plan journeys more easily" nor "see when your bus is arriving in real time" - which you can sort of do already - is not going to happen

In terms of tickets, you can't actually buy local tickets in Stevenage - £2.80, but you can buy longer distance tickets - £3. Why? That's not going to change either. You can already buy most other tickets in app anyway.

They used to be cheaper in app, but now cost the same as cash fares. So how does this enhance "Buy and manage tickets in the app"?

Journey planning is almost impossible because the app tries to centre where you are (not great if you are on a train) and you have to manually override and even then, it rarely gives you real time data, just what's timetabled. You can't save a journey to query daily. Service updates are there already - usually completely irrelevant to the journey in question.

Reskinning the app and the website - which is what's actually going to happen - is not going to work.

 

[markymark2000]

Reskinning the app and the website - which is what's actually going to happen - is not going to work.

This is not a reskin. It's moving to a completely different provider. A recognised tech provider used by many little and large operators across the UK

 

[arrivamatt]

Reskinning the app and the website - which is what's actually going to happen - is not going to work.

It isn't what's actually going to happen - the web platform and app is entirely new, not a reskin.

 

[riceuten]

It isn't what's actually going to happen - the web platform and app is entirely new, not a reskin.

All the new "features" exist already in the app - how is this "progress"?

 

[YorkRailFan]

All the new "features" exist already in the app - how is this "progress"?

The features will be improved.

They also made a post on social media that said more or less the same thing.

I'll keep this to discussing the app and not Non-Arriva Herts and Essex's lamentable services - the app will not properly track buses in real time now or in the future, because to "cancel" buses means someone has to physically intervene to remove it from the system.

In any case, we *sort* of have real time data already on the app but it's riddled with errors. So any actual improvement to "Plan journeys more easily" nor "see when your bus is arriving in real time" - which you can sort of do already - is not going to happen

In terms of tickets, you can't actually buy local tickets in Stevenage - £2.80, but you can buy longer distance tickets - £3. Why? That's not going to change either. You can already buy most other tickets in app anyway.

They used to be cheaper in app, but now cost the same as cash fares. So how does this enhance "Buy and manage tickets in the app"?

Journey planning is almost impossible because the app tries to centre where you are (not great if you are on a train) and you have to manually override and even then, it rarely gives you real time data, just what's timetabled. You can't save a journey to query daily. Service updates are there already - usually completely irrelevant to the journey in question.

Reskinning the app and the website - which is what's actually going to happen - is not going to work.

Cancelling buses on apps is manual for other operators too. Transdev takes the effort to do this on the app, Go Ahead also does (sometimes).
Regarding local fares, I imagine Arriva will move to promote using Tap On Tap Off rather than app tickets as its easier to calculate the correct fare. The app will have the benefit for those using the likes of weekly tickets rather than a paper ticket.

I hope it's not the platform that Go Ahead use...

Passenger? Its used by lots of operators, not just Go Ahead so seems to be quite a popular option.

 

[James H]

The Passenger sites and apps are not perfect but they have plainly been developed with care and attention to detail (and some understanding of the needs of an actual bus passenger)

 

[Russel]

They also didn't win any Bee Network routes.
Colchester is an area, which im surprised they still there, as there has often been rumours of it getting sold/close down. They did originally do that but gained it via the purchase of Tellings-Golden Miller

Colchester is a strange place, First don't seem to invest much, they were still running B7TLs until very recently and whoever owns Hedingham/Chambers this week seems to specialise in running services using buses worth little more than scrap value.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Colchester is a strange place, First don't seem to invest much, they were still running B7TLs until very recently and whoever owns Hedingham/Chambers this week seems to specialise in running services using buses worth little more than scrap value.

Three firms operating in a relatively small town. The former Go East (now TMS) operations were fairly low margin operations running in from elsewhere - I'd expect they'll be tackling that in due course. As for First... I really does remain one of their flat spots. Not certain the depot has had anything new since the 65 plate Streetlites?

Arriva are simply in survival mode.

 

[riceuten]

The features will be improved.

How ? All we want is proper real time information. Nothing on the list is not already a feature

Cancelling buses on apps is manual for other operators too. Transdev takes the effort to do this on the app, Go Ahead also does (sometimes).

Arriva does it ALL the time in Stevenage. Ghost buses that never run abound.

Regarding local fares, I imagine Arriva will move to promote using Tap On Tap Off rather than app tickets as its easier to calculate the correct fare.

No sign of that anywhere in the locality. They haven't even got smartcards in the area

The app will have the benefit for those using the likes of weekly tickets rather than a paper ticket.

Which, er, already exists.

 

[YorkRailFan]

How ? All we want is proper real time information. Nothing on the list is not already a feature

Arriva does it ALL the time in Stevenage. Ghost buses that never run abound.

No sign of that anywhere in the locality. They haven't even got smartcards in the area

Which, er, already exists.

You complained about the features not working properly and Arriva has responded with a new website/app improving the features.

Arriva has stated on their website that Tap On Tap Off will be rolled out eventually across all of their regions.

It's not just Arriva that has problems with cancelling journeys. Normally, with Ticketer, if a journey is cancelled on Ticketer, it should be cancelled on the app. If journeys are not cancelled on the app, it reflects a lack of synchronisation or journeys not being cancelled on Ticketer.

A new website/app will hopefully bring a new, improved interface for passengers.

The Passenger sites and apps are not perfect but they have plainly been developed with care and attention to detail (and some understanding of the needs of an actual bus passenger)

It has its problems, but is certainly one of the better sites.

 

[Trainman40083]

How ? All we want is proper real time information. Nothing on the list is not already a feature

Arriva does it ALL the time in Stevenage. Ghost buses that never run abound.

No sign of that anywhere in the locality. They haven't even got smartcards in the area

Which, er, already exists.

Your first two comments sum it up nicely. For people to use public transport, they want certainty of travel. Where I live, the Council things that is "what time a bus SHOULD turn up", not what time a bus WILL turn up. Often display screens show buses due, that just drop off. Often they are stuck in traffic and late, but they are coming. Personally, bustimes.org has been a godsend. It usually shows exactly where the bus is, even if it is late.

 

[riceuten]

You complained about the features not working properly and Arriva has responded with a new website/app improving the features.

But not how.

Your first two comments sum it up nicely. For people to use public transport, they want certainty of travel. Where I live, the Council things that is "what time a bus SHOULD turn up", not what time a bus WILL turn up. Often display screens show buses due, that just drop off. Often they are stuck in traffic and late, but they are coming. Personally, bustimes.org has been a godsend. It usually shows exactly where the bus is, even if it is late.

The displays at the bus station do not show real time information (bizarrely, the ones at the train station and other locations in Stevenage do (but, of course, not if Arriva forget to cancel them from the system...)

I agree bustimes.org has been a great help, but they have their fair share of ghost buses as well - usually when Arriva have failed to delete them...)

Arriva has stated on their website that Tap On Tap Off will be rolled out eventually across all of their regions.

Not in this press release.

It's not just Arriva that has problems with cancelling journeys. Normally, with Ticketer, if a journey is cancelled on Ticketer, it should be cancelled on the app. If journeys are not cancelled on the app, it reflects a lack of synchronisation or journeys not being cancelled on Ticketer.

It relates to a lack of human action. Which this "improvement" will do nothing to address

A new website/app will hopefully bring a new, improved interface for passengers.

How this will be done remains unspecified

 

[buslad1988]

Three firms operating in a relatively small town. The former Go East (now TMS) operations were fairly low margin operations running in from elsewhere - I'd expect they'll be tackling that in due course. As for First... I really does remain one of their flat spots. Not certain the depot has had anything new since the 65 plate Streetlites?

Arriva are simply in survival mode.

I’d imagine Colchester will gain Southends Versa’s to wipe out the E200’s when they receive Streetlites from from Kent.

They’re a likely equivalent and will knock a few years off the average fleet age atleast. Wouldn’t be hopeful for anything newer than that.

 

[Megafuss]

I'll reserve judgment on what Arriva are working on until I see how they present through routes which are on separate registrations, as it's currently a mess!

 

[YorkRailFan]

Not in this press release

As stated in this press release:

Where can I use Tap On Tap Off?

• Leicester
• North East
• Wales
• Yorkshire
• Further locations will be added very soon

Tap On Tap Off

The quick and easy way to pay for your adult bus travel is available in Leicester, Wales, Yorkshire and across the North East.

www.arrivabus.co.uk

Never stated it was the press release about the website/app.

It relates to a lack of human action. Which this "improvement" will do nothing to address

It does relate to human action, but hopefully this will improve with the wave of investment we've seen with I Squared in the existing operations.

How this will be done remains unspecified

As stated In the press release about the new website/app:

We’ll be back soon with full details, including when the new Arriva Bus app will launch and how to get started.

Latest News - Arriva UK Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

It's still early days regarding the website/app, in due course new details will be revealed.

 

[riceuten]

As stated in this press release:

Tap On Tap Off

The quick and easy way to pay for your adult bus travel is available in Leicester, Wales, Yorkshire and across the North East.

www.arrivabus.co.uk

Never stated it was the press release about the website/app.

It does relate to human action, but hopefully this will improve with the wave of investment we've seen with I Squared in the existing operations.

As stated In the press release about the new website/app:

Latest News - Arriva UK Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

It's still early days regarding the website/app, in due course new details will be revealed.

I’m not holding my breath.

 

[markymark2000]

I agree bustimes.org has been a great help, but they have their fair share of ghost buses as well - usually when Arriva have failed to delete them...)

Can I ask for you to explain what you are meaning by ghost buses, because the previous meanings of ghost buses (that being a bus plodding along the map suggesting it's on time but in reality it was just showing where it thinks the bus should be, rather than using any actual on bus tracking), is not a thing on Bustimes. You are the first person that I've seen raise this in the 5 or so years that I've used Bustimes and been a part of the community, and so I'd be interested to hear of some examples as there will almost certainly be an explanation available which is not ghost buses.

 

[Russel]

Can I ask for you to explain what you are meaning by ghost buses, because the previous meanings of ghost buses (that being a bus plodding along the map suggesting it's on time but in reality it was just showing where it thinks the bus should be, rather than using any actual on bus tracking), is not a thing on Bustimes. You are the first person that I've seen raise this in the 5 or so years that I've used Bustimes and been a part of the community, and so I'd be interested to hear of some examples as there will almost certainly be an explanation available which is not ghost buses.

I can kind of see where riceuten is coming from, local to me the Arriva route 6, Tamworth to Nuneaton was displaying on Bustimes under both Arriva Midlands North (correct) and Arriva Midlands (Leicestershire ops, incorrect) and the service displayed under Arriva Midlands had a timetable that was different to the correct timetable displayed under Arriva Midlands North, so when you look at departures from bus stops along the route it would show the real time and a second 'ghost' departure 10 or so minutes later.

I believe it was all corrected towards the back end of last year though.

 

[Statto]

Re the up & coming website redesign i hope that includes the timetables too, i've just looked at the 724 Harlow - Heathrow timetable, that has to be the worst timetable layout i've ever read, the layout is so confusing that it renders it useless.

 

[riceuten]

Can I ask for you to explain what you are meaning by ghost buses, because the previous meanings of ghost buses (that being a bus plodding along the map suggesting it's on time but in reality it was just showing where it thinks the bus should be, rather than using any actual on bus tracking), is not a thing on Bustimes. You are the first person that I've seen raise this in the 5 or so years that I've used Bustimes and been a part of the community, and so I'd be interested to hear of some examples as there will almost certainly be an explanation available which is not ghost buses.

Buses that either fail to track or that track for a bit and then disappear from the website. In Stevenage, the circular Non-Arriva buses often display the wrong time as the time recorded for the return journey obliterates the outgoing record.

 

[markymark2000]

I can kind of see where riceuten is coming from, local to me the Arriva route 6, Tamworth to Nuneaton was displaying on Bustimes under both Arriva Midlands North (correct) and Arriva Midlands (Leicestershire ops, incorrect) and the service displayed under Arriva Midlands had a timetable that was different to the correct timetable displayed under Arriva Midlands North, so when you look at departures from bus stops along the route it would show the real time and a second 'ghost' departure 10 or so minutes later.

I believe it was all corrected towards the back end of last year though.

I agree there can be timetable issues, and these are looked at when reports are made. It's very different to the old meaning of ghost buses though which was that a bus was 'tracking' on a map but didn't actually exist.

Buses that either fail to track or that track for a bit and then disappear from the website. In Stevenage, the circular Non-Arriva buses often display the wrong time as the time recorded for the return journey obliterates the outgoing record.

Very different meanings to the previous common descriptions of a ghost bus but anyway.

Tracking relies fully on GPS and phone signal and almost always relies on the ticket machine. GPS can fail in a number of areas and then combine that with phone signal, which as we all know these days isn't half as good as it should be. That's before you look at any issues with on bus systems or other systems that the location data flows though before even reaching bustimes (ie Ticketer in most cases and bus open data). There are MANY cogs turning to make tracking work and yes, sometimes they fail. No GPS tracking is 100% all of the time.

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to get at though in terms of solutions. You complain about tracking issues and Arrivas solution of making up the bus location and ghost tracking (somewhat educated guesses), then also complain that Bustimes solution of not showing details if there is no data. There only 2 solutions that I can see. That being to immediately withdraw a bus from service if there is a GPS fault and cancel journeys, or Bustimes could just remove tracking for all routes then there can never be any issue?

Re the up & coming website redesign i hope that includes the timetables too, i've just looked at the 724 Harlow - Heathrow timetable, that has to be the worst timetable layout i've ever read, the layout is so confusing that it renders it useless.

Timetables will become somewhat more interactive on the main site and not rely upon PDFs like current. How that data is shown in the new timetable layout will very much depend on the data inputted into it by Arriva. Though given their shoddy data entry upto now for BODS and their ticket machines (both of which have shed loads of stops missing and the split registration routes, of which the 724 is one, are handled), you probably shouldn't hold your breath.

 

[Russel]

I agree there can be timetable issues, and these are looked at when reports are made. It's very different to the old meaning of ghost buses though which was that a bus was 'tracking' on a map but didn't actually exist.

If I remember correctly, the duplicates also appeared on Google Maps, so whatever it's called, it's a very anti-customer oversight that shouldn't have happened.

As a transport enthusiast, it was obvious to me which timetable was the correct timetable, but normal passengers are never going to know which 6 is which and could, or probably did, have an hours wait at a stop because they went to catch a bus that didn't exist, no doubt then airing their frustration at the driver of the next bus that does turn up.