Is Transport for Wales nationalist? Could its operations be redistributed?

[Western Lord]

The Welsh Government's promotion of the Welsh language is a political thing to emphasize Welshness, even though only about 20% of Welsh people speak it (and all of those being bi-lingual). If they were really serious they would insist that everything in Wales was, at least, bi-lingual. So all broadcasting, films and the internet, all newspapers, books, magazines, food and other product packaging etc. etc. Speaking English is just too useful for Welsh to ever become more than the language equivalent of a preserved steam railway.

 

[amahy]

Well, they are. It’s the law in Wales (democracy for you) that the announcements have to be in Welsh and give equal prominence. You’re tilting at windmills here.

Please lobby your MP to undevolve Wales and revoke its political settlement instead of posting impossible waffle.

So what do you propose then? Like, what in your view actually needs to happen from an English perspective to ensure no Welsh is heard?

Nobody is saying that no Welsh should be heard. What we are saying is, that it would make more sense for English announcements to be made before Welsh announcements in England, because more people understand English than Welsh. Just because the law is the law, does not mean that it can’t be challenged.

 

[AlterEgo]

Nobody is saying that no Welsh should be heard. What we are saying is, that it would make more sense for English announcements to be made before Welsh announcements in England, because more people understand English than Welsh. Just because the law is the law, does not mean that it can’t be challenged.

But what you’re lobbying for isn’t a change in policy, it is to reverse Britain’s constitutional settlement. Best of luck in undevolving Wales.

 

[Krokodil]

The facts are, that everyone in Wales either speaks only English, or both Welsh and English

That's not true at all. As I said further upthread there are Welsh people who are not fluent in English.

Therefore, surely English first would be more democratic and representative?

The democratically-elected representatives of the residents of Wales have made this policy decision.

Just because the law is the law, does not mean that it can’t be challenged.

Then get yourself elected to the Senedd and propose a change in the law. Do let us know how you get on.

Honestly, would you complain about announcements on trains in Switzerland for announcing in French or German before English, even though English is the lingua franca there?

 

[mmh]

That's not true at all. As I said further upthread there are Welsh people who are not fluent in English.


The democratically-elected representatives of the residents of Wales have made this policy decision.


Then get yourself elected to the Senedd and propose a change in the law. Do let us know how you get on.

Honestly, would you complain about announcements on trains in Switzerland for announcing in French or German before English, even though English is the lingua franca there?

Given that Welsh is the only official language defined in law in the UK, perhaps he'd be better arguing for English to have legal protection in England rather than worrying himself about what goes on in Wales.

And a subnote to that, and as a comment on some other people's earlier posts - that's been the case since 1993, pre-devolution and under a Conservative government.

 

[cle]

Imagine thinking that respecting and preserving a culture of our land is virtue signalling. How depressing.

Not only is it legally protected but it’s the right thing to do. Otherwise, what a bland, boring place we are. Many countries have multiple native languages which are not the majority one - why should we be so basic?

 

[WelshBluebird]

What we are saying is, that it would make more sense for English announcements to be made before Welsh announcements in England, because more people understand English than Welsh.

Why? What difference does it make to you exactly? You still hear the English version! I really dont see the issue you are claiming exists here.

 

[The Ham]

Why? What difference does it make to you exactly? You still hear the English version! I really dont see the issue you are claiming exists here.

Indeed, as I said up thread, most non regular users would know that they're station is the one after Station X, which will mean that when they hear the next announcement after that station then they'll know to get ready at the start of the next announcement after that station.

Also, for all those who say that they can't understand the names, I hope you feel sorry for the Americans with various of our place names!!!

OK, that last point is slightly tongue in check, but it kind of shows that there's always going to be discrepancies between what people think they know and the actual way names are said.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've always just thought of it as a nice quirk to be honest, part of the personality of taking a train in/near Wales. I find the Swiss thing of different chimes by where you are and different ordering of the languages also a nice quirk. It can be worth doing things just for that reason given that it's just fiddling with software.

 

[6Gman]

Would the following gain general approval?

Services within, or starting and finishing in Wales, Welsh first.
Services within England, English first.
Services starting in one but finishing in another, switch (once only) at appropriate point. For example, Cardiff-Manchester switches at Hereford; Aberystwyth-Birmingham at Shrewsbury.

 

[amahy]

Would the following gain general approval?

Services within, or starting and finishing in Wales, Welsh first.
Services within England, English first.
Services starting in one but finishing in another, switch (once only) at appropriate point. For example, Cardiff-Manchester switches at Hereford; Aberystwyth-Birmingham at Shrewsbury.

This has been discussed previously, and seems fair, but the 3rd point could cause confusion on services like Holyhead to Cardiff, which cross the Welsh border more than once.

An alternative suggestion, could be to follow the example of the airline industry, where services starting in England are English first, and services starting in Wales are Welsh first.

 

[mmh]

An alternative suggestion, could be to follow the example of the airline industry, where services starting in England are English first, and services starting in Wales are Welsh first.

That isn't legally possible (as has been pointed out multiple times).

 

[Smwrff]

Given that Welsh is the only official language defined in law in the UK, perhaps he'd be better arguing for English to have legal protection in England rather than worrying himself about what goes on in Wales.

And a subnote to that, and as a comment on some other people's earlier posts - that's been the case since 1993, pre-devolution and under a Conservative government.

Just a technicality....but English is also an official language in Wales.

So Wales has 2 official (de jure) languages - while England has none.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Would the following gain general approval?

Services within, or starting and finishing in Wales, Welsh first.
Services within England, English first.
Services starting in one but finishing in another, switch (once only) at appropriate point. For example, Cardiff-Manchester switches at Hereford; Aberystwyth-Birmingham at Shrewsbury.

Ill ask again though - what problem is this actually solving?

 

[Peter Sarf]

So what do you propose then? Like, what in your view actually needs to happen from an English perspective to ensure no Welsh is heard?

I am not saying Welsh should not be heard.

 

[amahy]

That isn't legally possible (as has been pointed out multiple times).

There seem to be some inconstensies here. When was this law brought in? The 175s always had their auto announcements in English first, and the 158s never had (and still don't have) any Welsh auto announcements, although the 158s will most likely all be gone from TfW in a year.

 

[35B]

That isn't legally possible (as has been pointed out multiple times).

How come? What's been said is that the law requires equal prominence; this would serve no detriment to Welsh (indeed, as more trains in Wales run from Welsh places, it would embed a Welsh-first position).

 

[mmh]

There seem to be some inconstensies here. When was this law brought in? The 175s always had their auto announcements in English first, and the 158s never had (and still don't have) any Welsh auto announcements, although the 158s will most likely all be gone from TfW in a year.

2011.

Pragmatism is involved in the implementation of it. When it comes to things like signage and announcements, public bodies must adhere to the legislation when creating or procuring something new.

One of the best examples of this pragmatism in practice isn't on the railway, but on the roads. All new road signage must comply, but there's no compulsion for existing signage to be changed. That's Welsh Government policy. Prior to 2011, the ordering of the languages on road signs was left to the decision of the authority in charge of it. In North Wales, that's why towards England there are still many with English first. There are far fewer to the west of North Wales - the former Clwyd County Council chose English first, the former Gwynedd County Council chose Welsh first.

The same, to a lesser extent, is the situation on the railway. My local station has one BR era sign left which is in English only.

Arriva Trains Wales and predecessor TOCs weren't public bodies. Transport for Wales is.

It's not inconsistency, it's history.

 

[35B]

2011.

Pragmatism is involved in the implementation of it. When it comes to things like signage and announcements, public bodies must adhere to the legislation when creating or procuring something new.

One of the best examples of this pragmatism in practice isn't on the railway, but on the roads. All new road signage must comply, but there's no compulsion for existing signage to be changed. That's Welsh Government policy. Prior to 2011, the ordering of the languages on road signs was left to the decision of the authority in charge of it. In North Wales, that's why towards England there are still many with English first. There are far fewer to the west of North Wales - the former Clwyd County Council chose English first, the former Gwynedd County Council chose Welsh first.

The same, to a lesser extent, is the situation on the railway. My local station has one BR era sign left which is in English only.

Arriva Trains Wales and predecessor TOCs weren't public bodies. Transport for Wales is.

It's not inconsistency, it's history.

Having looked at the legislation, and without digging for the various Statutory Instruments, I remain unclear as to where the 2011 legislation requires highways authorities to standardise on Welsh first - or how that applies to announcements on trains.

 

[Western Lord]

This has been discussed previously, and seems fair, but the 3rd point could cause confusion on services like Holyhead to Cardiff, which cross the Welsh border more than once.

An alternative suggestion, could be to follow the example of the airline industry, where services starting in England are English first, and services starting in Wales are Welsh first.

I've never flown from Wales, but are you suggesting that Captain Speaking makes announcements in Welsh. If airlines had to have Welsh speaking crews it would explain the lack of services from Cardiff Airport. One thing I am certain of, Welsh air traffic control is in English only.

 

[Stephen42]

Having looked at the legislation, and without digging for the various Statutory Instruments, I remain unclear as to where the 2011 legislation requires highways authorities to standardise on Welsh first - or how that applies to announcements on trains.

Legislation is often complex. It's not unheard of for the legal duty and expected compliance level for public bodies to be different. For TfW the Welsh ministers can direct it to carry out their goals and don't require an instrument of parliament to do so (some exceptions apply). The Welsh Language Measures 2011 clearly sets the intention for Welsh to be treated no less favourably than English. My personal interpretation is while a public body there might not be a legal duty to comply with standards as all the 6 conditions in the duty to comply section are probably not met. They are directed to comply anyway and that ends up as the same result.

The other relevant legislation is the "Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025" which requires the Welsh Ministers to target increasing the number of Welsh speakers to 1 million. There is no requirement in either set of legislation not to treat English less favourably. Having everything Welsh first would likely increase the perceived utility of Welsh and increase usage. TfW has a Welsh language strategy which is Welsh first everywhere. They may not legally be required to have that, but Welsh Ministers could legally require them to if they wished. Relevant quote:

We’re upgrading our network to ensure you see and hear Cymraeg and English (in that order) everywhere. TfW has always been a bilingual organisation. As we develop our presence in Wales, we want to go a step further to demonstrate our pride in the language. Our passengers should be able to access the language of their choice. We’re committed to ensuring the Welsh language is treated equally to and no less favourably than English. This applies across our organisation, both externally and internally.

That document also includes reference to developing sector-specific Welsh language standards which implies they don't currently exist. The GBR memorandum of understanding also includes complying and supporting the Welsh language standards. With so few operators it might not need to be in legislation for it to be complied with in practice. There may be areas where legacy tech makes compliance harder and it's a reasonable endeavours situation.

(I don't think there is anything in legislation requiring a private bus or train operator to announce in Welsh first at English stops for cross border services or randomising order everywhere. Traffic signs are different legislation such as Traffic Sign Regulations 2016 with prescribed signs that are Welsh first complete with transition arrangements for older signs. Neither of these are relevant to TfW though)

 

[tfw756rider]

The 175s always had their auto announcements in English first, and the 158s never had (and still don't have) any Welsh auto announcements, although the 158s will most likely all be gone from TfW in a year.

The 175s never had any Welsh-language automated announcements, they were always English-only.

 

[35B]

Legislation is often complex. It's not unheard of for the legal duty and expected compliance level for public bodies to be different. For TfW the Welsh ministers can direct it to carry out their goals and don't require an instrument of parliament to do so (some exceptions apply). The Welsh Language Measures 2011 clearly sets the intention for Welsh to be treated no less favourably than English. My personal interpretation is while a public body there might not be a legal duty to comply with standards as all the 6 conditions in the duty to comply section are probably not met. They are directed to comply anyway and that ends up as the same result.

The other relevant legislation is the "Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025" which requires the Welsh Ministers to target increasing the number of Welsh speakers to 1 million. There is no requirement in either set of legislation not to treat English less favourably. Having everything Welsh first would likely increase the perceived utility of Welsh and increase usage. TfW has a Welsh language strategy which is Welsh first everywhere. They may not legally be required to have that, but Welsh Ministers could legally require them to if they wished. Relevant quote:


That document also includes reference to developing sector-specific Welsh language standards which implies they don't currently exist. The GBR memorandum of understanding also includes complying and supporting the Welsh language standards. With so few operators it might not need to be in legislation for it to be complied with in practice. There may be areas where legacy tech makes compliance harder and it's a reasonable endeavours situation.

(I don't think there is anything in legislation requiring a private bus or train operator to announce in Welsh first at English stops for cross border services or randomising order everywhere. Traffic signs are different legislation such as Traffic Sign Regulations 2016 with prescribed signs that are Welsh first complete with transition arrangements for older signs. Neither of these are relevant to TfW though)

I'm well aware of the complexity of legislation, hence my comment - the 2011 legislation has a lot of cross references, and I didn't try to follow them down. I'm therefore grateful for your setting out the logic of the policy, and I recognise that voluntary compliance with ministerial wishes is a rational thing for an organisation to do.

Separately, I observe that the language used is a tad disingenuous. It proclaims that it does not wish to disadvantage English, yet the effect of all of the policies is to privilege the Welsh language. Where Welsh is not the dominant language in everyday usage, the effect of that approach is in my view to advantage one language over another regardless of the needs of the local population.

As someone who believes language is, first and foremost a means of communication, I am underwhelmed by this approach and the associated politicisation of language. It owes rather more to the Irish model, despite Gaelic being spoken as a primary tongue by a minority, than the Swiss, which acknowledges the languages actually used.

 

[Djgr]

So in terms of the OP complaints, we are essentially left with:

having to wait 10 seconds for announcements in English, although they will probably have sight of a screen that is providing the information they require continuously.

Time to close this thread down methinks.

 

[Krokodil]

The 175s always had their auto announcements in English first,

They didn't have bilingual announcements at all.

 

[tfw756rider]

(The 175s) didn't have bilingual announcements at all.

As I effectively said in post #112

The 175s never had any Welsh-language automated announcements, they were always English-only.

 

[mmh]

So in terms of the OP complaints, we are essentially left with:

having to wait 10 seconds for announcements in English, although they will probably have sight of a screen that is providing the information they require continuously.

Time to close this thread down methinks.

Unsurprisingly the screens alternate between Welsh and English, so no doubt someone would complain it's not "continuously".

I disagree with closing the thread. There are actually useful discussions to be had spurred from this - e.g. how could bilingual PIS be improved? What's the point of a discussion forum if people aren't allowed to discuss something?

 

[tfw756rider]

So in terms of the OP complaints, we are essentially left with:

having to wait 10 seconds for announcements in English, although they will probably have sight of a screen that is providing the information they require continuously.

Time to close this thread down methinks.

What is your photo trying to show? I believe that that screen mode that scrolls the calling points isn't always in English and also alternates between Welsh and English (happy to be corrected if I'm wrong).

(Edit - written while the previous post was being posted)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2026 ==

Unsurprisingly the screens alternate between Welsh and English, so no doubt someone would complain it's not "continuously".

I disagree with closing the thread. There are actually useful discussions to be had spurred from this - e.g. how could bilingual PIS be improved? What's the point of a discussion forum if people aren't allowed to discuss something?

Exactly.

 

[DS25]

I disagree with closing the thread. There are actually useful discussions to be had spurred from this - e.g. how could bilingual PIS be improved? What's the point of a discussion forum if people aren't allowed to discuss something?

I feel like the current design used is quite bad and messy, and personally should use the TfW font for more brand consistency
This might make it more messy, but if done right both languages could be shown at the same time

 

[The Mercian]

I’d be interested to hear the views or otherwise of the people who drive the agenda for Midlands Connect and the West Midlands Rail Executive regarding Shropshire and Herefordshire. I’m sure they ( and the relevant councils) make their wishes known to the DfT in representing requirements to the Welsh Govt/TfW?

I’ve often felt that the Hereford to Crewe portion of the line should have a WMT all stations service with TfW doing the regional/express elements and stopping at far fewer places. There are plenty of examples of different operators sharing track to the benefit of passengers.

For me the important question is how will/can we improve services in the English Border counties by taking more control through devolved English bodies and is that desirable? If Glos, Herefordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire are happy with the current settlement then really it seems like doing something for the sake of lines on a map.

I have changed my view somewhat on this over the past few months as we risk delineating too much through political boundaries which could detract from running a network which crosses these boundaries all over the place. In saying that I do think an English Regional structure with properly funded sub national Transport bodies like TfL and TfNorth is desperately needed to combat over centralisation (the UK disease) in GBR.