Is Transport for Wales nationalist? Could its operations be redistributed?

[amahy]

The 197s are a lot better than the 150s and 158s that used to operate the Marches?

The 150s and 158s were only a temporary measure, introduced after the 175s were deemed unsafe due to fire risk.

Two or three car 175s have become five car 197s or loco-hauled sets.

In theory, yes. But in practice, short forming is still rife. And, the 175s were generally more comfortable than the 197s, even if they were too short.

They really don't. 197s achieve more miles between failures.

The number of 197s stored out of use at Holyhead, Crewe, and Chester says otherwise.

I think the underlying issue is possibly those living on the English side of the border not feeling any sense of support or recognition from the DfT, who are supposed to be ‘looking after’ them.

It is also unclear where the funding all comes from and who decides how it is spent. Rightly or wrongly, a perception is that revenue from say a Hereford to Manchester journey is going into a pot which Welsh ministers decide what to do with, rather than anything anyone in say Herefordshire can do anything about.

This is my concern. Why should Welsh ministers care about, for example, someone travelling between Hereford and Craven Arms?

 

[The exile]

Given that English is a mix of German, French and Danish,

Being pedantic, it shares common roots with those three languages. What is remarkable about the development of the English language is the almost complete eradication of its Romano-British predecessor (other than place names and re-imports via other routes).

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 150s and 158s were only a temporary measure, introduced after the 175s were deemed unsafe due to fire risk.

The 158s in particular were always a regular part of the Marches services, all the way back to Regional Railways days, before, during, and after the 175s.

 

[35B]

This is my concern. Why should Welsh ministers care about, for example, someone travelling between Hereford and Craven Arms?

Welsh ministers won't. Just as British ministers show very little concern for, say, XC travellers.

DfT have a supervisory role (cue comments about the usefulness of chocolate teapots) given the nature of the devolution settlement, so those services are not "just" Welsh run.

Ultimately, it's about a service that has been a Cinderella since cross country was moved to go via Brum in the 70s(?), and which is now significantly better than it has been. TfW are operating under a conrtactual framework, and ministerial supervision will always be limited. As it happens, the political power of the marches line has if anything increased under devolution, as it provides one of the few through routes for Senedd members in North Wales - so pressure can be brought to bear.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2026 ==

The 158s in particular were always a regular part of the Marches services, all the way back to Regional Railways days, before, during, and after the 175s.

Absolutely. Their introduction allowed replacement of the 155s, which replaced the 37s and Mk2s.

 

[quantinghome]

It depends how you answer. There were north-south routes (Carmarthen -Aberystwyth, Mid Wales line, linking to Bala-Blaenau Ffestiniog, or Bangor-Afin Wen) but never through services. That reflected an economic geography that wasn’t about connecting with the capital, and acknowledged that much of Wales was highly connected with England. There is still only one A road that goes north to south.

Indeed, the current Welsh nationalist idea of routes linking the whole country reflects a much more modern sense of nationhood, and it is interesting how unambitious the focus on reopening old lines is.

It does make you wonder, if the routes were never closed, whether any north-south through services would actually use them. Maybe some tourist trains? At best it would be a larger scale version of the Cumbrian coast service, with the vast majority of the traffic taking the more direct route.

 

[35B]

It does make you wonder, if the routes were never closed, whether any north-south through services would actually use them. Maybe some tourist trains? At best it would be a larger scale version of the Cumbrian coast service, with the vast majority of the traffic taking the more direct route.

Had the lines survived, it's hard to see how any through services would have worked. They were never designed as through routes, with junctions that pointed the wrong way for through trains and routes that don't really go the right way.

 

[Krokodil]

The reality is that nobody in Wales does not speak English

That's not true, there are many people in Wales who are not fluent in English and there will be some (very young kids and elderly people, particularly if things like dementia are a factor) who have little English ability.

And, the 175s were generally more comfortable than the 197s, even if they were too short.

Did you ever ride on them around 2018? Most of the seat cushions were completely worn out, some were positively painful to sit in. They didn't get much attention from Arriva, TfW had them refurbished to a decent standard.

The number of 197s stored out of use at Holyhead, Crewe, and Chester says otherwise.

That says nothing about the failure rate (how many miles a unit can manage on average before disrupting the service). Most of the reason that units are long-term out of traffic is that there are 77 units and one of the two main maintenance depots (Machynlleth) will only have the space to accommodate and maintain them once the 158s leave. Units parked up at the end of Chester Middle Yard for long periods tend to be the ones cannibalised to cover for hold ups with spare parts.

This is my concern. Why should Welsh ministers care about, for example, someone travelling between Hereford and Craven Arms?

Craven Arms is the interchange for Heart of Wales services. That function gets the station a much better service than a population of 2k would usually justify. A town of that size which didn't have the good fortune of being on a secondary mainline would have needed to plead exceptional hardship to dodge Beeching.

The 158s in particular were always a regular part of the Marches services, all the way back to Regional Railways days, before, during, and after the 175s.

And the 150s got use on the Marches throughout Arriva's stewardship, mostly to cycle them between their work in the North and their maintenance depot in Cardiff.

Had the lines survived, it's hard to see how any through services would have worked. They were never designed as through routes, with junctions that pointed the wrong way for through trains and routes that don't really go the right way.

If a through service existed it would only have done so for political reasons.

In practice if the missing links in the line were ever restored, I would imagine the services to consist of a loop (Birmingham-Bangor-Machynlleth-Birmingham), and either a self-contained Aberystwyth to Carmarthen service, or an extension of the Birmingham-Aberystwyth service through to Carmarthen.

So at the very least you'd still need to change at Dovey Junction.

 

[6Gman]

That's not true, there are many people in Wales who are not fluent in English and there will be some (very young kids and elderly people, particularly if things like dementia are a factor) who have little English ability.


Did you ever ride on them around 2018? Most of the seat cushions were completely worn out, some were positively painful to sit in. They didn't get much attention from Arriva, TfW had them refurbished to a decent standard.


That says nothing about the failure rate (how many miles a unit can manage on average before disrupting the service). Most of the reason that units are long-term out of traffic is that there are 77 units and one of the two main maintenance depots (Machynlleth) will only have the space to accommodate and maintain them once the 158s leave. Units parked up at the end of Chester Middle Yard for long periods tend to be the ones cannibalised to cover for hold ups with spare parts.


Craven Arms is the interchange for Heart of Wales services. That function gets the station a much better service than a population of 2k would usually justify. A town of that size which didn't have the good fortune of being on a secondary mainline would have needed to plead exceptional hardship to dodge Beeching.


And the 150s got use on the Marches throughout Arriva's stewardship, mostly to cycle them between their work in the North and their maintenance depot in Cardiff.


If a through service existed it would only have done so for political reasons.

In practice if the missing links in the line were ever restored, I would imagine the services to consist of a loop (Birmingham-Bangor-Machynlleth-Birmingham), and either a self-contained Aberystwyth to Carmarthen service, or an extension of the Birmingham-Aberystwyth service through to Carmarthen.

So at the very least you'd still need to change at Dovey Junction.

I once travelled from North Wales to South Wales via the coastal route.

It involved an overnight stay in Aberystwyth.

(Changing trains at Afon Wen and Dovey Junction (as it then was) was ... interesting, but you wouldn't want to miss your connection!)

For the vast majority of people travelling between North and South Wales the Marches route will always be faster.

 

[Ianigsy]

To answer the original question, I think it’s more complicated than that - somebody living at, say, Llanfairfechan (where my former headmaster retired) would probably say that TfW prioritises Cardiff and the valleys at the expense of giving residents of smaller settlements in the North a usable service to the next town or to major cities in north-west England.

There does need to be some sort of supervision to ensure that routes such as Chester-Manchester/Liverpool and the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper aren’t given a poor service because priorities are set in Cardiff, but in the last decade it seems to me that TfW have been realistic and accepted that people in North Wales do want access to the shops and airports in Liverpool and Manchester.

 

[Krokodil]

To answer the original question, I think it’s more complicated than that - somebody living at, say, Llanfairfechan (where my former headmaster retired) would probably say that TfW prioritises Cardiff and the valleys at the expense of giving residents of smaller settlements in the North a usable service to the next town or to major cities in north-west England.

The since-retired union rep at Holyhead used to say that Arriva weren't aware that there was anything past Shrewsbury, but TfW had at least discovered the existence of Chester!

The geography of Wales' railways does mean that they aren't really well suited to an integrated operator. Some would make the argument that North Wales was better off when run from Manchester, and Mid Wales better off when run from Birmingham.

A case in point is that First North Western used to run its North Wales services through to Birmingham via Stafford, whereas the current services are slower because they have been combined with Central Trains' old Chester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham service. There is a valid point that passengers in Chester and on the coast do have a poorer Birmingham service now because of the creation of "Wales and Borders".

There does need to be some sort of supervision to ensure that routes such as Chester-Manchester/Liverpool and the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper aren’t given a poor service because priorities are set in Cardiff, but in the last decade it seems to me that TfW have been realistic and accepted that people in North Wales do want access to the shops and airports in Liverpool and Manchester.

Ultimately a lot of the cross-border routes are often quite good in financial terms - Cardiff-Manchester is supposedly the only flow TfW has that manages without subsidy. So it's in TfW's interests to run them well.

Merseytravel would also have something to say if the Liverpool service suddenly got downgraded to a single 153 because they've contributed to it too.

If the Chester-Manchester service turns out 2-car trains at peak times they risk inciting the staff to mutiny too so those occasions are mercifully reducing in frequency!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why should Welsh ministers care about, for example, someone travelling between Hereford and Craven Arms?

Those two towns are on the main railway route which connects South Wales, Mid Wales, and North Wales. So even if they don't specifically care about passengers between those two towns, they will care about the overall route as the trains that are important to them use that route and go through those towns.

Whereas the civil servants in London would struggle to point to Hereford on a map, never mind somewhere like Craven Arms.

Did you ever ride on them around 2018? Most of the seat cushions were completely worn out, some were positively painful to sit in. They didn't get much attention from Arriva, TfW had them refurbished to a decent standard.

Until TfW came in, the 175s were in a dreadful state. Arriva had re-covered most of the seats into Arriva corporate moquette but that was about it. Everything else was still in First Barbie.

That said, I did always like the 175s and thought they were the most comfortable of all the post-privatisation DMUs. It's just a shame they came with Alstom's world-famous build quality. I don't get the 197 hate though. They're not big enough, a 2-car 197 having 20 fewer seats than a 2-car 158 or 175, but they're nice trains. They're certainly nicer than the 172s you otherwise see in Hereford and they're pretty much identical to the 196s you otherwise see in Shrewsbury.

 

[35B]

Until TfW came in, the 175s were in a dreadful state. Arriva had re-covered most of the seats into Arriva corporate moquette but that was about it. Everything else was still in First Barbie.

The zero growth ATW franchise has a lot to answer for there. It's not entirely fair* to criticise Arriva for delivering what they had agreed to do.

* - Ok, it's Arriva, so it's still satisfying!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The zero growth ATW franchise has a lot to answer for there. It's not entirely fair* to criticise Arriva for delivering what they had agreed to do.

It came with a "nice" dose of insipid yellow and turquoise and general sloppiness, though, so I think criticism is perfectly due. You can do a basic operation without being sloppy or making it look rubbish.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The zero growth ATW franchise has a lot to answer for there.

Yep. And that was a Strategic Rail Authority special, the franchise award predating the devolution to Cardiff.

 

[Peter Sarf]

To me it seems that Wales as a country is distorted (for want of a better word). It has a nucleus/capital in the South - Cardiff (incidentally a very mixed race/culture city where English seems to be much more prominent compared to further North). But then many parts, particularly North Wales, are nearer to big cities in England. It is because of geography not some political failure or trick. It means transport links are not centred on Cardiff * (not radiating out from Cardiff) so a North - South route in Wales is not so much of a priority. Compare and contrast to England where routes radiate out from London and there is a lack of routes round London. It is where the big cities are that dictates things. Of course Northern Powerhouse rail is addressing the cluster of cities either side of the Pennines but for Wales there is not such an obvious market even if there is a geographical obstruction (central Wales).

I do think TfW has done a lot for railways in (and near) Wales. There is yet more to come. Currently I think TfW is at the stage where the large amount they bit off is about to finishing being chewed.

Talk of the Welsh Marches route makes me wonder. As so much of it is in England would it have been left out of TfW if it were not the main North - South route in Wales ?. Not saying that would have been better for it. More likely it was neglected compared due to the existence of its roughly parallel neighbour via Birmingham.

* = The South Wales valleys are very much connected to Cardiff (and Newport) of course but beyond that is relative wilderness.

Anyway Transport for Wales is obviously very nationalistic. In a way that in England it is not because England is not a separate entity from Britain. So if the English were to behave in a nationalistic way then that is at risk of being viewed as racist. That is because England does not have an England only government nor an England only railway operator.

 

[35B]

It came with a "nice" dose of insipid yellow and turquoise and general sloppiness, though, so I think criticism is perfectly due. You can do a basic operation without being sloppy or making it look rubbish.

As I said, it was Arriva. I'm not giving them a let for professionalism, just acknowledging that when it came to managing the fleet, they actually did what they'd been asked to do. And, going back to the OP by @amahy, that is part of why having TfW in charge may be a good thing rather than leaving it on the fringes of the DfT empire

 

[Djgr]

To answer the original question, I think it’s more complicated than that - somebody living at, say, Llanfairfechan (where my former headmaster retired) would probably say that TfW prioritises Cardiff and the valleys at the expense of giving residents of smaller settlements in the North a usable service to the next town or to major cities in north-west England.

There does need to be some sort of supervision to ensure that routes such as Chester-Manchester/Liverpool and the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper aren’t given a poor service because priorities are set in Cardiff, but in the last decade it seems to me that TfW have been realistic and accepted that people in North Wales do want access to the shops and airports in Liverpool and Manchester.

And it has been the Welsh government that has been pushing for direct services to Liverpool (Halton Curve and Borderlands), which helps both countries.

Heaven help us if we had to rely on Westminster for this.

 

[35B]

To me it seems that Wales as a country is distorted (for want of a better word). It has a nucleus/capital in the South - Cardiff (incidentally a very mixed race/culture city where English is much more prominent compared to further North). But then many parts, particularly North Wales, are nearer to big cities in England. It is because of geography not some political failure or trick. It means transport links are not centred on Cardiff * (not radiating out from Cardiff) so a North - South route in Wales is not so much of a priority. Compare and contrast to England where routes radiate out from London and there is a lack of routes round London. It is where the big cities are that dictates things. Of course Northern Powerhouse rail is addressing the cluster of cities either side of the Pennines but for Wales there is not such an obvious market even if there is a geographical obstruction (central Wales).

I do think TfW has done a lot for railways in (and near) Wales. There is yet more to come. Currently I think TfW is at the stage where the large amount they bit off is about to finishing being chewed.

Talk of the Welsh Marches route makes me wonder. As so much of it is in England would it have been left out of TfW if it were not the main North - South route in Wales ?. Not saying that would have been better for it.

* = The South Wales valleys are very much connected to Cardiff (and Newport) but beyond that is relative wilderness.

Anyway Transport for Wales is obviously very nationalistic. In a way that in England it is not because England is not a separate entity from Britain so if the English are behaving nationalistic then that is at risk of being viewed as racist. That is because England does not have an England only government nor an England only railway operator.

We English have a grotesque tendency to say "British" when we mean "English"; something that the other nations frequently find deeply offensive.

I am not at all surprised that the Welsh government wish to use transport to help pull Wales together and make it more of a single country - as others have highlighted, there are many parts of Wales that do not look towards Cardiff yet are deeply Welsh (indeed, more so in some ways than Cardiff and surrounds). It's an entirely reasonable thing to do, but expensive - hence the sense of ambitions that go way beyond what's likely to happen in reality.

 

[Peter Sarf]

We English have a grotesque tendency to say "British" when we mean "English"; something that the other nations frequently find deeply offensive.

I am not at all surprised that the Welsh government wish to use transport to help pull Wales together and make it more of a single country - as others have highlighted, there are many parts of Wales that do not look towards Cardiff yet are deeply Welsh (indeed, more so in some ways than Cardiff and surrounds). It's an entirely reasonable thing to do, but expensive - hence the sense of ambitions that go way beyond what's likely to happen in reality.

Trouble I have is I view myself as British as in England, Scotland, Wales and Irelend (loosely perhaps the whole island). But then I am more interested in being part of something bigger (Europe) than just being a subset of Britain. But that is enough topic drift.

 

[Krokodil]

That said, I did always like the 175s and thought they were the most comfortable of all the post-privatisation DMUs. It's just a shame they came with Alstom's world-famous build quality.

Chester did manage to get to grips with them eventually though, at least until CAF took over the depot and things rapidly went downhill. I wonder what would have happened if the 180s ended up at Longsight or Chester on long term Marches work rather than being moved from operator to operator. If anyone could have made the 180s run reliably, Chester could.

I don't get the 197 hate though. They're not big enough, a 2-car 197 having 20 fewer seats than a 2-car 158 or 175, but they're nice trains.

The seats are certainly much better than the ones on any 802 in the country.

Talk of the Welsh Marches route makes me wonder. As so much of it is in England would it have been left out of TfW if it were not the main North - South route in Wales ?

I imagine that it would fall under the Crosscountry franchise, with passengers wedged into 170s. We all know XC's reputation for capacity woes and crew shortages.

 

[quantinghome]

To me it seems that Wales as a country is distorted (for want of a better word). It has a nucleus/capital in the South - Cardiff (incidentally a very mixed race/culture city where English seems to be much more prominent compared to further North). But then many parts, particularly North Wales, are nearer to big cities in England. It is because of geography not some political failure or trick. It means transport links are not centred on Cardiff * (not radiating out from Cardiff) so a North - South route in Wales is not so much of a priority. Compare and contrast to England where routes radiate out from London and there is a lack of routes round London. It is where the big cities are that dictates things. Of course Northern Powerhouse rail is addressing the cluster of cities either side of the Pennines but for Wales there is not such an obvious market even if there is a geographical obstruction (central Wales).

Even if you were designing a rail network for Wales from scratch, centered on Cardiff, you would still put the North-South route pretty much where it currently is. The population distribution is concentrated on the east side in both north and south Wales, and building the line entirely within Wales would be a world of pain engineering-wise, especially building it as a twin-track 75/90mph main line.

 

[AlterEgo]

The summary of these posts seems to be “England and Wales are one entity”, which I fully agree with. In which case, it shouldn’t be a big issue for TfW to be absorbed into GBR and ran by the UK government

It is a big issue because TfW is devolved and cannot simply be wrested away from the Welsh Assembly. So that is that really.

 

[cle]

God forbid any little Englanders have to hear another language - this is the rail thread equivalent of some idiot in a supermarket telling people to speak English.

Of course the Welsh government focus on Welsh issues. Much as, in theory, an MP should focus on their constituency, ie - those who vote for you. This gets lost sometimes, but is the crux of our democracy, representation.

 

[MarkyT]

I liked the Gareth Dennis idea for a route mostly in Wales, apart from the Shotton connection. To run fast from Wrexham to Shotton, a fast chord near Saltney would be better to avoid stopping trains and freight. That would involve three miles in England, with no stations and might justify a bit more double track. Like the Marches services, I don't agree with avoiding Chester. Some enhancement to the west end of Chester station for TfW trains terminating or reversing there might be a better idea.

Wales needs this new railway (with maps) | #Railnatter 116

For some reason, our old #Railnatter on the Welsh railway network went viral earlier this year, so I thought I'd take the chance to dig into the culmination ...

www.youtube.com

 

[amahy]

God forbid any little Englanders have to hear another language - this is the rail thread equivalent of some idiot in a supermarket telling people to speak English.

Of course the Welsh government focus on Welsh issues. Much as, in theory, an MP should focus on their constituency, ie - those who vote for you. This gets lost sometimes, but is the crux of our democracy, representation.

I have no problem with hearing other languages. The point is, that train announcements and posters are there to provide information, not promote other languages. The facts are, that everyone in Wales either speaks only English, or both Welsh and English, with most having English as a first language. Therefore, surely English first would be more democratic and representative? Especially with the large number of stations that TfW serves outside Wales, where people have no vote in the Welsh government.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have no problem with hearing other languages. The point is, that train announcements and posters are there to provide information, not promote other languages. The facts are, that everyone in Wales either speaks only English, or both Welsh and English, with most having English as a first language. Therefore, surely English first would be more democratic and representative? Especially with the large number of stations that TfW serves outside Wales, where people have no vote in the Welsh government.

This is the main issue. We generally seem to like pandering to a minority at the expense of the majority. All encouraged by a keenness to be seen to be "virtue signalling".

 

[Trainbike46]

This is the main issue. We generally seem to like pandering to a minority at the expense of the majority. All encouraged by a keenness to be seen to be "virtue signalling".

This sounds like nonsense tbh;

There are English announcements, so people who don't speak any Welsh (which includes me) can still get all the information. I have yet to see a coherent reason for why Welsh shouldn't be prominently used on trains in or to/from Wales, and there's multiple reasons for why it should be prominently used, including to preserve the Welsh language in daily use.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2026 ==

I have no problem with hearing other languages. The point is, that train announcements and posters are there to provide information, not promote other languages. The facts are, that everyone in Wales either speaks only English, or both Welsh and English, with most having English as a first language. Therefore, surely English first would be more democratic and representative? Especially with the large number of stations that TfW serves outside Wales, where people have no vote in the Welsh government.

Have you read the many replies in this thread that point out that:
-TfW have brought improvements to their services outside Wales, including new trains and new services
-TfW is under the responsibility of the DfT in Westminster for services outside Wales, so the people outside Wales are represented in decision making

I (obviously) hope TfW improves services further, but the criticisms in this thread seem very odd.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have no problem with hearing other languages. The point is, that train announcements and posters are there to provide information, not promote other languages.

Well, they are. It’s the law in Wales (democracy for you) that the announcements have to be in Welsh and give equal prominence. You’re tilting at windmills here.

Please lobby your MP to undevolve Wales and revoke its political settlement instead of posting impossible waffle.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This sounds like nonsense tbh;

There are English announcements, so people who don't speak any Welsh (which includes me) can still get all the information. I have yet to see a coherent reason for why Welsh shouldn't be prominently used on trains in or to/from Wales, and there's multiple reasons for why it should be prominently used, including to preserve the Welsh language in daily use.

It is supposed to be information not a teaching exercise (for arguably unwilling pupils).

There are bigger reasons for prioritising the language used by the majority.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is supposed to be information not a teaching exercise (for arguably unwilling pupils).

There are bigger reasons for prioritising the language used by the majority.

So what do you propose then? Like, what in your view actually needs to happen from an English perspective to ensure no Welsh is heard?